Which timezone should the UK be in?

[dangie]

I just wish my town could be in any current time zone instead of being 20 years behind…….

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd go with GMT+1 but with no daylight saving. It's a nuisance. Less of one with devices that change themselves, but in a modern economy there's just no need.

 

[adrock1976]

Although the least amount of daylight hours in Shetland during the winter is far more noticeable than in London, maybe Shetland could switch to whatever time it is in Norway as it is closer than what it is to the mainland of Great Britain?

 

[GusB]

Leave things as they are. It's not perfect, but it's a sensible compromise. Moving to permanent GMT+1 means that it isn't getting light here until nearly 10am in the winter months. It's getting dark after 3pm as it is, so having the extra hour of daylight later in the day makes no difference to anyone finishing work at 5pm. I'd rather have that little bit of daylight on the way into work.

 

[AM9]

Leave things as they are. It's not perfect, but it's a sensible compromise. Moving to permanent GMT+1 means that it isn't getting light here until nearly 10am in the winter months. It's getting dark after 3pm as it is, so having the extra hour of daylight later in the day makes no difference to anyone finishing work at 5pm. I'd rather have that little bit of daylight on the way into work.

Easy to fix, just start and finish the working hours an hour later when required.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Leave things as they are. It's not perfect, but it's a sensible compromise. Moving to permanent GMT+1 means that it isn't getting light here until nearly 10am in the winter months. It's getting dark after 3pm as it is, so having the extra hour of daylight later in the day makes no difference to anyone finishing work at 5pm. I'd rather have that little bit of daylight on the way into work.

There is I suppose a not unreasonable argument for Scotland being on a different timezone to England, and perhaps on independence it might choose this? It's a long way north and west.

 

[Magdalia]

There is I suppose a not unreasonable argument for Scotland being on a different timezone to England, and perhaps on independence it might choose this? It's a long way north and west.

I shall resist the temptation to comment on the prospect of England and Scotland being in different time zones, and needing to adjust our timepieces at Berwick on Tweed.

But I thought I should congratulate you on posting a contribution to a time zone discussion exactly at midnight!

 

[duncanp]

Leave things as they are. It's not perfect, but it's a sensible compromise. Moving to permanent GMT+1 means that it isn't getting light here until nearly 10am in the winter months. It's getting dark after 3pm as it is, so having the extra hour of daylight later in the day makes no difference to anyone finishing work at 5pm. I'd rather have that little bit of daylight on the way into work.

I agree.

Having Scotland and England on different time zones, as some people have suggested, would create a whole load of problems for those who travel across the border, and is a complete non starter as far as I can see.

Easy to fix, just start and finish the working hours an hour later when required.

You could say a similar thing to those who are not happy with the current arrangements.

 

[AM9]

I agree.

Having Scotland and England on different time zones, as some people have suggested, would create a whole load of problems for those who travel across the border, and is a complete non starter as far as I can see.

Maybe something to adapt to for the few who do need to work across a 1 hour time difference but for the great majority of the population either side of the border, virtually no difference at all.

You could say a similar thing to those who are not happy with the current arrangements.

Yes, the impact even in the most north-westerly corner of the UK is not as severe as some make out. But even then, there's no reason why schools, shops, local companies and other daily activities can't be adjusted to,what works best locally. That has become much more relevant with the rise in homeworking and flexible hours.

 

[yorkie]

Reopened at the request of @nw1

 

[renegademaster]

Somehow trains can survive crossing from UTC1 to UTC2 , i doubt Grenwich Mean time to British summer time will be an enormous barrier to overcome

 

[nw1]

Reopened at the request of @nw1

Many thanks.

Anyway, somehow I missed this thread last spring and it's a shame as there are a few points worth discussing which have only partly come up.

Firstly, if given the choice I would go with GMT+1 all year round. Here, it would mean 9am sunrises in Dec and Jan which isn't ideal but better than the horrendous alternative of all-year GMT.

To repeat a point on the other thread, think about what all-year GMT would entail, in the south of England:

- Darkness at 7pm in the first half of April
- Darkness at 8pm in the first half of May
- Darkness at 9pm all summer
- Darkness at 8pm again through most of August
- Darkness at 7pm throughout September
- Darkness at 6pm throughout October

It would have a big impact on the perception of summer, and we'd lose those long, light evenings; it would always be dark by 9pm here. 365 days of the year. By the end of September it would feel like winter was already upon us with the sun already setting before 6pm.

In the meantime, the sun would be rising at 4am in June, and on sunny days we'd have full sunlight in the 4-5am hour, when most are trying to sleep. And given the long twilights of midsummer, it would be half-light by 3am and light would be perceptible on the horizon by 2am.

On other matters, while I reluctantly see the need for GMT from about mid-Nov to late Jan, there is absolutely no need for it in March. Even in Inverness it would be light by 8am in early March on BST (sunrise something like 0810, which means it'd be light around 20 mins earlier). To be honest, the whole of Europe should do this, not just us (apparently the delay was to synchronise time changes across all of Europe). If Europe as a whole sees no need for Winter Time in October, why does it see a need for Winter Time in March when there is more daylight anyway?

Also and perhaps slightly contentiously, we go back to GMT too early. One feature of early November is the very early solar noon, around 1150. This results, for a short period, very lop-sided days in which it's broad daylight by 0645 but getting dark by 1700. Sunset on November 1st is actually earlier than right now, due to the solar noon effect. Conversely, in early Feb solar noon is "naturally" later at around 1220. So while GMT is a reasonable fit for now, it's a poor fit for early Nov. So I'd strongly support delaying the onset of GMT to the third Sunday in November, and ending it on the last Sunday in February or first in March.

GMT, and Winter Time in general, should be seen only as an emergency, short term measure to prevent overly-dark mornings for a short, 3 month or so period in winter. No need to have 5 months of it.

 

[dangie]

So while GMT is a reasonable fit for now, it's a poor fit for early Nov. So I'd strongly support delaying the onset of GMT to the third Sunday in November, and ending it on the last Sunday in February or first in March.

I’d ideally like BST all year round, but I’d compromise on BST to GMT last weekend in October as at present, then GMT to BST last weekend in February. That would give eight months of BST and four months of GMT.

 

[yorkie]

I’d ideally like BST all year round, but I’d compromise on BST to GMT last weekend in October as at present, then GMT to BST last weekend in February. That would give eight months of BST and four months of GMT.

Yep, sounds a good compromise.

I think one day I should organise a forum meal at The Daylight Inn, for any forum members who are supporters of BST!

Daylight Inn, Petts Wood

This pub is named in honour of William Willett, a local MP, who campaigned for daylight saving in the 1900’s. This imposing mock Tudor building, built in 1935, stands in the heart of Petts Wood Station Square. Built originally as a pub and...

whatpub.com

This pub is named in honour of William Willett, a local MP, who campaigned for daylight saving in the 1900’s.

This imposing mock Tudor building, built in 1935, stands in the heart of Petts Wood Station Square. Built originally as a pub and hotel with a ball room attached, it has been updated several times over the years. It has managed to retain wood panelling, fire places, brickwork and original features. The ballroom is used for community events and is available for hire. Two large screens are in the main area of the pub. An outside seating area round the pub overlooks the square.

The pub is included on CAMRA's "real heritage" list, and is grade II listed nationally...

 

[davews]

Those of you who have done section 2 of the London Loop will have seen the memorial to William Willett and his sundial set to permanent summer time in Petts Wood.
Personally as one who is early to bed and early to rise I get annoyed about all these people who want to go to permanent summer time. Mornings are for getting up early and getting things done, not waiting until mid morning until the early morning frost has gone. Permanent GMT I could live with.

 

[yorkie]

Those of you who have done section 2 of the London Loop will have seen the memorial to William Willett and his sundial set to permanent summer time in Petts Wood.
Personally as one who is early to bed and early to rise I get annoyed about all these people who want to go to permanent summer time. Mornings are for getting up early and getting things done, not waiting until mid morning until the early morning frost has gone. Permanent GMT I could live with.

In permanent GMT most people would experience an hour less of daylight time, in the hours they are actually awake and/or out and about for.

The majority of people are voting for BST because it would benefit the majority.

At the moment, the current set up is a compromise, but it goes too far towards the minority who support GMT. A better compromise would be that posted by @dangie above. Still not ideal, but more tolerable for the majority.

 

[Giugiaro]

Whatever your decision might be, please ditch Daylight Savings Time. Thank you.

 

[nw1]

Whatever your decision might be, please ditch Daylight Savings Time. Thank you.

Why?

 

[GusB]

At the moment, the current set up is a compromise

It has to be a compromise. Go for permanent GMT or BST and people at opposite ends of the UK are going to be disadvantaged in some way.

I think we should leave things as they are. By all means tinker with when we change from winter to summer time - one or two weeks isn't going to make a hell of a lot of difference.

 

[Giugiaro]

Why?

Me and my colleagues have our sleep schedules messed up after an hour change.
We go from pretty much waking up naturally to waking up too early, having trouble falling asleep, and then struggling to get up from bed.
In some, but not all cases, there are also reports of headaches, muscle pain and, or mood changes in the weeks after the hour change.

 

[nw1]

Me and my colleagues have our sleep schedules messed up after an hour change.
We go from pretty much waking up naturally to waking up too early, having trouble falling asleep, and then struggling to get up from bed.
In some, but not all cases, there are also reports of headaches, muscle pain and, or mood changes in the weeks after the hour change.

OK, fair enough - sorry, I thought you were objecting to the concept of DST as in winter time + 1, rather than the change itself.

 

[dangie]

I really don’t understand people who moan about the twice yearly one hour +/- clock change affecting their sleep/biorhythm’s etc, when they happily go on foreign holidays resulting is clock changes from anything between 1 to 6/7/8+ hours. Two weeks later they return only to go through it again.

 

[Eyersey468]

This has been tried before, in 1968-71. It was called British Standard Time, still abbreviated as BST.

It was very unpopular, especially in the north and west of the UK.

Here in the Fens dawn was after 0900 in the middle of winter, there were places in the north and west where dawn was not until about 1000. In particular there was a lot of concern about children going to school in the dark.

I don't think we will be going there again.

I didn't know it had been tried before, I wonder why they decided to experiment with it and why they stopped it

 

[317 forever]

If would like BST all year round, but if we were to keep the clock change I’d go for changing from GMT to BST on the last weekend of February not the last weekend of March.

My preferance would be to keep having the clocks forward for an hour outside of winter, but yes to put them forward at the end of February like you suggest. It would be nice being light a bit later in March. Furthermore, I often wake up early in March for being both light and cold in the mornings. I can often sleep through either but not both at the same time.

Interesting point.

Is there a reason why the clocks don't move forward until the end of March?

The point being, the clocks go back just under 2 months before the shortest day (December 21), but they don't go forward until over 3 months after the shortest day.

Yes, this is the other reason why I'd favour the clocks going forward at the end of February rather than the end of March.

 

[davews]

I remember vividly the 1968-1971 experiment, for me alternating between North Lincolnshire and Southampton, and especially the very dark winter mornings which is why it was later dropped by majority request. We don't want to revisit that.

 

[nw1]

I remember vividly the 1968-1971 experiment, for me alternating between North Lincolnshire and Southampton, and especially the very dark winter mornings which is why it was later dropped by majority request. We don't want to revisit that.

Not sure about North Lincs but in Southampton I think many could easily cope with all-year BST. Actually all-year BST would also make sense in an easterly location such as Lincolnshire, which has even darker evenings under GMT than more westerly locations.

I really don’t understand people who moan about the twice yearly one hour +/- clock change affecting their sleep/biorhythm’s etc, when they happily go on foreign holidays resulting is clock changes from anything between 1 to 6/7/8+ hours. Two weeks later they return only to go through it again.

Perhaps the people who dislike clock changes are not the same people as those who go abroad.

Or, more likely, going abroad is enough of a positive to do it, despite the problems, whereas the October clock change in particular has very little going for it at all.

 

[Magdalia]

I didn't know it had been tried before, I wonder why they decided to experiment with it and why they stopped it

The answer to why BST was stopped is in the message that you quoted.

These days a lot more is known about inter-generational differences in circadian rhythms. What people felt intuitively about children being more at risk in the morning now has more of a basis in science.

the October clock change in particular has very little going for it at all.

That may be the case for you, but it is not a view shared by everyone. Another thing, where science knows a lot more now compared to the 1970s, is Seasonal Affective Disorder, and the impact of lack of daylight on mental health.

 

[adc82140]

I'd go with CET. I'm just back from France, and sunset at 6pm at the end of January was rather welcome.

 

[nw1]

I'd go with CET. I'm just back from France, and sunset at 6pm at the end of January was rather welcome.

Indeed, if Calais can cope with CET why can't Dover, 20 miles away?

That may be the case for you, but it is not a view shared by everyone. Another thing, where science knows a lot more now compared to the 1970s, is Seasonal Affective Disorder, and the impact of lack of daylight on mental health.

Indeed, but surely to mitigate SAD you want to maximise the amount of daylight during waking hours, which would be an argument for all-year BST.

I have suffered from slight SAD in some years (often weather dependent) and I find that it's the very early sunsets of November, December and the first half of January that is the biggest contributing factor.

 

[Magdalia]

Indeed, if Calais can cope with CET why can't Dover, 20 miles away?

A line has to be drawn somewhere. Recent evidence suggests that lots of people in the UK like it to be in the English Channel.