Which timezone should the UK be in?

[nw1]

A line has to be drawn somewhere. Recent evidence suggests that lots of people in the UK like it to be in the English Channel.

Opinions of course differ, but I'd probably have it further northwest than that.

 

[Magdalia]

Indeed, but surely to mitigate SAD you want to maximise the amount of daylight during waking hours, which would be an argument for all-year BST.

On the other hand, the people I know with Seasonal Affective Disorder struggle most with waking up early, not being able to get back to sleep, and having to wait ages for sunrise. For them, GMT in winter is better.

 

[Essan]

I'd go with CET. I'm just back from France, and sunset at 6pm at the end of January was rather welcome.

That's because most of France is in the wrong natural time zone. And further south of the UK.

Personally I like midday at 12.00(ish) - it just makes more sense to me (albeit for most of the UK, natural midday is after 12.00 because most of the country is west of the meridian. Indeed, there are arguments for saying Ireland ought to be one time zone further west!)

However, I am happy to maintain the compromise of summer time in the summer, even if it does mean it's often still daylight when I go to bed ..... I do however think we should revert to GMT at the end of September as this would balance out the year better and would have less noticeable impact on the majority of people. By late Sept there's not really enough daylight after folk finish work to do much anyway, so losing that hour of daylight wouldn't adversely affect many people, but equally, by having the "lost" hour occurring after people have left work means it'll be safer for driving. One of the problems with go back to GMT at the end of October is that we suddenly go from driving home in daylight to driving home as the sun it setting (I am talking for the majority here, who finish work at 5or 6pm).

Of course, if we all moved to the equator, or fixed the Earth's tilt, we could have sunrise and sunset at 6am/6pm all year round!

 

[nw1]

That's because most of France is in the wrong natural time zone. And further south of the UK.

Personally I like midday at 12.00(ish) - it just makes more sense to me (albeit for most of the UK, natural midday is after 12.00 because most of the country is west of the meridian. Indeed, there are arguments for saying Ireland ought to be one time zone further west!)

It could also be argued that it's best to have solar noon at close to 1300, because it's the mid-point of the most typical working day from around 0900 to around 1700.

One could thus argue that France is actually in the correct timezone; due to its southerliness it does not "need" to be on GMT. The only reason for GMT is to prevent excessively dark winter mornings, any argument about it being the "natural timezone" ignores the typical hours of the waking and working day.

However, I am happy to maintain the compromise of summer time in the summer, even if it does mean it's often still daylight when I go to bed ..... I do however think we should revert to GMT at the end of September as this would balance out the year better and would have less noticeable impact on the majority of people.

It would mean pre-6pm sunsets at the end of September, and would make it seem like we're descending into winter one month early. We'd have more than 5 months of pre-6pm sunsets, almost half the year.

By late Sept there's not really enough daylight after folk finish work to do much anyway, so losing that hour of daylight wouldn't adversely affect many people,

It does mean though that we can return from work in the light for much of October. More significantly, perhaps, GMT in October would mean less leisure time available at the weekends, and afternoon walks in October would become rushed affairs while BST in October means you can have a relaxed lunch followed by a relaxed walk without worrying about it getting dark soon.

 

[AM9]

It seems that there's an alternative judging by soem of the most recent posts in this thread:
If many activities are more difficult by early evening darkness, (or late morning daylight), why not move the time of those activities, e.g. there's no absolute reason why office hours need to 9-5, - or whatever it is. Similarly, why do northern/scottish schools need to open at 09:00 on winter mornings, it's not as if they have a daily dependance on concurrence of what's happening in schools in the south of England. Much of this discussion is hung up on the number that the clock face shows, rather than the practicality of a particular time.

 

[Trackman]

If many activities are more difficult by early evening darkness, (or late morning daylight), why not move the time of those activities, e.g. there's no absolute reason why office hours need to 9-5, - or whatever it is.

It's been mentioned before about this and it makes common sense.
I remember the last time they tried BST, from my hazy memories the argument seemed to be centred on schoolkids in Scotland. It's quite simple, change the hours.
I think Yorkie said up the thread knows a school that opens in hours of darkness, so it's a load of rubbish anyway.

 

[Howardh]

Spain is - in summer at least - two hours+ out of sync with the solar noon, which arrives around 2pm in July in Ibiza 2.20pm in Malaga, meaning the sun is still dangerously strong at 4-5pm when tourists who like to sunbathe imagine it wouldn't be. The UK being just one hour out of sync in summer means much less of a problem for sunbathers wanting late afternoon sun.

So I voted for the UK to be on BST all year, but for goodness sake, Spain wants to get back into line - I think travelling across the Spain/Portugal border it's an hours difference all year?

 

[HSTEd]

Myself I see little reason for the clock to not be aligned with the solar reality.
If people want to get up early then they can get up early, without distorting the time system.

GMT is the most sensible solution.

 

[Giugiaro]

I really don’t understand people who moan about the twice yearly one hour +/- clock change affecting their sleep/biorhythm’s etc, when they happily go on foreign holidays resulting is clock changes from anything between 1 to 6/7/8+ hours.

There is a disorder called jetlag and it does negatively affect people. It's a more severe version of what is caused by the yearly hour change.

 

[Essan]

I think opinions are generally determined by whether someone is a morning or evening person (I'm the former) as well as how far SE or NW you live.

Of course - and it's really a separate issue - the other point is why we have a working day skewed towards the afternoon, with people typically at work for 3 hours before and 5 hours after midday. Obviously not something easily changed, but if the normal working day was 8 to 4 then maybe some people's opinions might be a bit different?

Myself I see little reason for the clock to not be aligned with the solar reality.
If people want to get up early then they can get up early, without distorting the time system.

GMT is the most sensible solution.

Effectively that's what we do - we all get up an hour earlier in summer. But we then change our clocks so we can pretend we're actually getting up at the same time.....

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Leave things alone.

A lot of people who campaign for change live in the Home Countries which is not only in the far south of the country, it is also in the far east. If we went on to BST in winter, large swaithes of the UK wouldn't get light till 10 am or later. And losing extra hour of daylight in the morning would mean much more effort scraping ice off windscreens after a frosty night.

The other issue is political. The UK has to be in the same zone as Ireland for obvious reasons. I doubt whether Dublin or Belfast would be enamoured if we moved on to Brussels time.

 

[AM9]

Leave things alone.

A lot of people who campaign for change live in the Home Countries which is not only in the far south of the country, it is also in the far east. If we went on to BST in winter, large swaithes of the UK wouldn't get light till 10 am or later. And losing extra hour of daylight in the morning would mean much more effort scraping ice off windscreens after a frosty night.

The other issue is political. The UK has to be in the same zone as Ireland for obvious reasons. I doubt whether Dublin or Belfast would be enamoured if we moved on to Brussels time.

"Large swaithes" of the country doesn't equate to 'large parts of the population'. Daylight/Darkness doesn't affect the countryside, it has no concept of man-made time notation. People are impacted though, so unless those in the north and west of the UK are deemed to have a higher status than the majority of the population, that is an irrelevance.
Throughout the winter most ice on windscreens only forms when the temperature starts to rise in the morning, so setting out whilst it is still dark will generally reduce the amount of scraping.

 

[dangie]

There seems to be a fear of darkness. Whether it‘s darker mornings or darker evenings really makes no difference. It goes dark every day, 7 days a week 52 weeks a year. It’s about time we got used to it. Those who live in northern climes of the world have far more extremes of sunrise/sunset times. For months of the year they have no sunrise or sunset. I’m guessing they’ve got used to it.

 

[Ediswan]

Throughout the winter most ice on windscreens only forms when the temperature starts to rise in the morning, so setting out whilst it is still dark will generally reduce the amount of scraping.

Source please. Ice formation can be weird, but I have never seen that stated before.

 

[Essan]

Source please. Ice formation can be weird, but I have never seen that stated before.

Me neither.

However, the lowest temperatures in winter do usually occur just before sunrise. The later sunrise occurs according to the clock, the more people are likely to be up and about and require heating on - as opposed to being still in a warm bed. For many this is also a health risk. So there is an argument for saying in winter we ought be on GMT - 1 so the sun rises earlier, not later....

I am also sure parents will relish the idea of getting their kids to walk to school in the dark!

 

[Yew]

Leave things alone.

A lot of people who campaign for change live in the Home Countries which is not only in the far south of the country, it is also in the far east. If we went on to BST in winter, large swaithes of the UK wouldn't get light till 10 am or later. And losing extra hour of daylight in the morning would mean much more effort scraping ice off windscreens after a frosty night.

If those who lived in Scotland wanted to change the times they do things, they would of course be welcome to.

The other issue is political. The UK has to be in the same zone as Ireland for obvious reasons. I doubt whether Dublin or Belfast would be enamoured if we moved on to Brussels time.

I don't understand why the UK has to be in the same time zone as Ireland?

 

[nw1]

There seems to be a fear of darkness. Whether it‘s darker mornings or darker evenings really makes no difference. It goes dark every day, 7 days a week 52 weeks a year. It’s about time we got used to it. Those who live in northern climes of the world have far more extremes of sunrise/sunset times. For months of the year they have no sunrise or sunset. I’m guessing they’ve got used to it.

But going dark at 4pm (as it does in December) is a little bit early.

There is a real practical use for evening daylight; it allows you to do outdoor things after work. Try doing a walk or cycle ride from 6pm onwards in the winter. Then try doing the same thing from April to August.

If those who lived in Scotland wanted to change the times they do things, they would of course be welcome to.

I don't understand why the UK has to be in the same time zone as Ireland?

Unionists would complain if NI was on a different timezone to GB, and nationalists would complain if NI was on a different timezone to the Republic.

If Scotland was included in the "Celtic" timezone (and perhaps Wales too, due to its westerliness) it would lessen these kind of issues though.

 

[philosopher]

I think opinions are generally determined by whether someone is a morning or evening person (I'm the former) as well as how far SE or NW you live.

Of course - and it's really a separate issue - the other point is why we have a working day skewed towards the afternoon, with people typically at work for 3 hours before and 5 hours after midday. Obviously not something easily changed, but if the normal working day was 8 to 4 then maybe some people's opinions might be a bit different?



Effectively that's what we do - we all get up an hour earlier in summer. But we then change our clocks so we can pretend we're actually getting up at the same time.....

I more of an evening person and I’m against the idea of all year round BST. The thought of getting up in January more than hour and half before sunrise when it would still likely be completely dark does not sound appealing at all to me. Sure it would get dark later, but in December and January at least it would still be dark when I leave work even with year round BST.

 

[nw1]

Spain is - in summer at least - two hours+ out of sync with the solar noon, which arrives around 2pm in July in Ibiza 2.20pm in Malaga, meaning the sun is still dangerously strong at 4-5pm when tourists who like to sunbathe imagine it wouldn't be. The UK being just one hour out of sync in summer means much less of a problem for sunbathers wanting late afternoon sun.

So I voted for the UK to be on BST all year, but for goodness sake, Spain wants to get back into line - I think travelling across the Spain/Portugal border it's an hours difference all year?

I've been to the Malaga area in midwinter and the extra evening daylight is really, really noticeable due to a) being not only south but also west of much of England (it's further west than Swansea, in fact) and b) being an hour ahead, despite its westerliness. Sunrise is 0830, comparable to much of northern England, but sunset is a staggering 1813. It takes until around the spring equinox for most of England to achieve comparably light evenings.

Myself I see little reason for the clock to not be aligned with the solar reality.
If people want to get up early then they can get up early, without distorting the time system.

GMT is the most sensible solution.

But is the "solar reality" so important?

Isn't it best to align with the working day instead? And the period of the day when most services are operating? The midpoint of the working day is typically around 1300, therefore solar noon should be close to 1300.

Getting up early means getting up at a time when most services, of all kinds, are not fully up and running. As I said try getting a train or bus around 6am and I suspect the frequency is well under that of the middle of the day, if it's running at all. Try using a shop or cafe, and it'll be nigh-on impossible.

If we permanently moved the standard working day to 0800-1600, have most shops open from around 0730, operate a full rail and bus service from around 0600, close the shops from 1600-1630, and close the pubs from 2200, then we might be able to deal with all year GMT. But until we do, it just means wasted daylight in the spring, summer and early autumn at a time of day when nothing's going on - and darker evenings in the summer half of the year, restricting the time available for outdoor activities post-work.

But it would probably just be easier to keep BST for most of the year.

 

[AM9]

Source please. Ice formation can be weird, but I have never seen that stated before.

Experience, going back decades when there were far more sub-zero nights (and mornings) than these climate change years. Generally the coldest part of a winter day that's not in transition to a different temperature, is 30-60 minutes before sunrise. If you are up early enough, on a typical winter sub-3 degree morning look at your car/roads/etc. currently in early February, at about 05:00. The air is usually quite dry so there is little frost or ice formed on surfaces that were dry at the end of the previous day. Then when sunrise approaches, a slight lift in the temperature causes what moisture there is to hit the coldest and hardest surfaces, including non-vertical windows. Thus windscreens are amond the first to get deposited frost that on sub-zero mornings can form a quite hard layer of thin ice.

 

[Statto]

Keep the time zone as it is, BST in winter would mean sunrise in December, & January, won't be until around 09.30, & i live on Merseyside, not the far north of Scotland,