Who needs the additional rolling stock more? Southern or Southeastern Railway.

[Sutton in Ant]

I want to say that I think that Great Northern has done a great deal in securing the 379s. But, there is something that I have been getting my head around for a long time, and that is other people on this site are saying that Southern doesn't need any more rolling stock and that Southeastern Railway needs more rolling stock than Southern. I understand that people are entitled to their views and I respect that. I have researched the fleet sizes of Southern Railway to Southeastern Railway, which may surprise you. I went to Wikipedia to count the fleet sizes and this is the result I came up with.

Fleet sizes. Southeastern Railway. 395, Southern Railway 235. On these statistics that would mean that Southeastern Railway fleet size is 160 Fleets more than Southern.

I do understand that Southeastern Railway is looking to get rid of the networkers which are in horrible condition. I rode on the Networkers and their toilets are disgusting and the Networkers sound old.

Southern Railway has lost 46 455s which has not been replaced and lost 19 313s which has not been replaced.

Railway travel has been going up since COVID-19. I will say that it is Southern that needs more Rolling Stock. I just think it is nonsense that people on this website are saying that Southern Railway doesn't need any more rolling stock. Southern saying that their services are increasing. That is where additional rolling stock is needed.

Southeastern (train operating company) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Southern (Govia Thameslink Railway) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I would like to say this. I did some research during the weekend. I came back with what I put down. I got told off by the moderators about something that should be on Speculative Discussion. I thought yes. I will put it on Speculative Discussion and start a new thread which I am doing now and my views haven't changed at all. I still believe that Southern Railway needs more additional rolling stock than Southeastern Railways.

 

[CarrotPie]

I want to say that I think that Great Northern has done a great deal in securing the 379s. But, there is something that I have been getting my head around for a long time, and that is other people on this site are saying that Southern doesn't need any more rolling stock and that Southeastern Railway needs more rolling stock than Southern. I understand that people are entitled to their views and I respect that. I have researched the fleet sizes of Southern Railway to Southeastern Railway, which may surprise you. I went to Wikipedia to count the fleet sizes and this is the result I came up with.

Fleet sizes. Southeastern Railway. 395, Southern Railway 235. On these statistics that would mean that Southeastern Railway fleet size is 160 Fleets more than Southern.

I do understand that Southeastern Railway is looking to get rid of the networkers which are in horrible condition. I rode on the Networkers and their toilets are disgusting and the Networkers sound old.

Southern Railway has lost 46 455s which has not been replaced and lost 19 313s which has not been replaced.

Railway travel has been going up since COVID-19. I will say that it is Southern that needs more Rolling Stock. I just think it is nonsense that people on this website are saying that Southern Railway doesn't need any more rolling stock. Southern saying that their services are increasing. That is where additional rolling stock is needed.

Frankly, they both need the stock. SN need with the 387s they're getting to relace the 313s and 455s. The only reason they're not chronically short of stock atm is because they keep cutting services to the bone. SE could definitely do with more mainline stock in the short term. In the longer term, the Networkers will need to be replaced in a mass extinction. Perhaps these could then be refurbished and go to SN, giving SE a homogeneous metro fleet? Just an idea. SE could also do with some more HS1 fleet, even though that's unlikely. Running 1tph to Medway is pathetic, especially when it's just a measly 6 cars. Pre-COVID, they were running a 6-car to FAV and a 12-car rounder each hour, and they were always well-loaded. Leisure travel has bounced back most since the pandemic...

 

[Trainlog]

Just an idea. SE could also do with some more HS1 fleet, even though that's unlikely. Running 1tph to Medway is pathetic, especially when it's just a measly 6 cars. Pre-COVID, they were running a 6-car to FAV and a 12-car rounder each hour, and they were always well-loaded. Leisure travel has bounced back most since the pandemic...

I agree with this. I would like to see more class 395s, as I have found the peak-hour service from Maidstone West to London St Pancras is very useful. As for the Medway section, more Javelins would cut the wait time at Strood for trains into the Medway towns and out to Faversham.

 

[paul1609]

Frankly, they both need the stock. SN need with the 387s they're getting to relace the 313s and 455s. The only reason they're not chronically short of stock atm is because they keep cutting services to the bone. SE could definitely do with more mainline stock in the short term. In the longer term, the Networkers will need to be replaced in a mass extinction. Perhaps these could then be refurbished and go to SN, giving SE a homogeneous metro fleet? Just an idea. SE could also do with some more HS1 fleet, even though that's unlikely. Running 1tph to Medway is pathetic, especially when it's just a measly 6 cars. Pre-COVID, they were running a 6-car to FAV and a 12-car rounder each hour, and they were always well-loaded. Leisure travel has bounced back most since the pandemic...

Its not been 1tph to Medway for sometime, Its 1 tph to Margate via the North Kent Line and 1tph to Faversham. As I understand it traffic to the North Kent line is still well below pre-pandemic levels and has now levelled off (true of all SE outside the M25 I believe).

 

[CarrotPie]

Its not been 1tph to Medway for sometime, Its 1 tph to Margate via the North Kent Line and 1tph to Faversham. As I understand it traffic to the North Kent line is still well below pre-pandemic levels and has now levelled off (true of all SE outside the M25 I believe).

It's 1tph at weekends, but yes, they've recently reinstated the Favershams.

 

[JonathanH]

Leisure travel has bounced back most since the pandemic...

That may be the case but it is difficult to make a case for more rolling stock just because some trains are crowded on a Saturday morning.

The only reason they're not chronically short of stock atm is because they keep cutting services to the bone.

They may have cut services, but saying that is to the bone is somewhat overstated.

SN need with the 387s they're getting to relace the 313s and 455s.

The loss of the 313s and 455s is not, of itself, justification for more rolling stock. Passenger demand and revenue in 2024 needs to justify the level of service, not the passenger demand and revenue in 2019. The debate really should get past the historical level of service and fleet size, and look at what is needed now.

As for standing passengers, it might be noted that suburban trains have about 60%-70% of the seats their predecessors had. Expecting everyone to be able to sit down on busy trains isn't how rolling stock is specified, but I appreciate that more could be done for priority passengers who suffer as a result.

Thinning out the service in the light of less demand has the benefit of enabling a more punctual railway to run with less congestion.

 

[TrainBoy98]

That may be the case but it is difficult to make a case for more rolling stock just because some trains are crowded on a Saturday morning.


They may have cut services, but saying that is to the bone is somewhat overstated.


The loss of the 313s and 455s is not, of itself, justification for more rolling stock. Passenger demand and revenue in 2024 needs to justify the level of service, not the passenger demand and revenue in 2019. The debate really should get past the historical level of service and fleet size, and look at what is needed now.

As for standing passengers, it might be noted that suburban trains have about 60%-70% of the seats their predecessors had. Expecting everyone to be able to sit down on busy trains isn't how rolling stock is specified, but I appreciate that more could be done for priority passengers who suffer as a result.

Thinning out the service in the light of less demand has the benefit of enabling a more punctual railway to run with less congestion.

I agree with everything you've said, until the "more punctual railway" bit - as much as this should be true, it doesn't yet seem/feel like that's the case imo.

But as you say, "to the bone" is wrong. Down o nthe Westcoastway for example, they're running more services and utilising stock better - this is what should happen where possible, not just more stock for stocks sake.

 

[paul1609]

That may be the case but it is difficult to make a case for more rolling stock just because some trains are crowded on a Saturday morning.


They may have cut services, but saying that is to the bone is somewhat overstated.


The loss of the 313s and 455s is not, of itself, justification for more rolling stock. Passenger demand and revenue in 2024 needs to justify the level of service, not the passenger demand and revenue in 2019. The debate really should get past the historical level of service, and look at what is needed now.

As for standing passengers, it might be noted that suburban trains have about 60%-70% of the seats their predecessors had. Expecting everyone to be able to sit down on busy trains isn't how rolling stock is specified, but I appreciate that more could be done for priority passengers who suffer as a result.

I rarely use metro services but the problem with GTR south of the Thames is that post pandemic there is a huge dispartiy between the services provided and the passenger flows. I would say that the Coastway services out of Brighton certainly West of Eastbourne to Southampton are at pre pandemic levels plus some and are continuing to grow because of massive house building and increasing traffic congestion along the south coast. Unfortunately these services havent returned to pre-pandemic levels the long distance GWR services have gone for good. SN for some reason seems to prefer running what are now ghost trains from the West Coastway to London and even Ghost Shuttles brighton to Hove to connect with them rather than reinstating the Brighton to West Worthing services. Quite why we need so many Thameslink Services south of Gatwick is another mystery fortunatley a proportion of them are nearly always cancelled due to overhead wiring problems north of London or staff shortages.

 

[JonathanH]

SN for some reason seems to prefer running what are now ghost trains from the West Coastway to London and even Ghost Shuttles brighton to Hove to connect with them rather than reinstating the Brighton to West Worthing services.

The 'West Worthing issue' is being resolved with the changes due in June, which will restore more services at the Brighton end, and remove the Brighton to Hove shuttle.

Quite why we need so many Thameslink Services south of Gatwick is another mystery fortunatley a proportion of them are nearly always cancelled due to overhead wiring problems north of London or staff shortages.

The problem there is that the frequency is needed on a Sunny Saturday, but perhaps not at other times. There are no doubt times of day and times of year when London to the Coast could cope with far fewer services, and indeed that happens when there is engineering work. However, the railway can't really be run on the basis of the weather forecast, so the capacity is run all the time.

 

[bramling]

Frankly, they both need the stock. SN need with the 387s they're getting to relace the 313s and 455s. The only reason they're not chronically short of stock atm is because they keep cutting services to the bone. SE could definitely do with more mainline stock in the short term. In the longer term, the Networkers will need to be replaced in a mass extinction. Perhaps these could then be refurbished and go to SN, giving SE a homogeneous metro fleet? Just an idea. SE could also do with some more HS1 fleet, even though that's unlikely. Running 1tph to Medway is pathetic, especially when it's just a measly 6 cars. Pre-COVID, they were running a 6-car to FAV and a 12-car rounder each hour, and they were always well-loaded. Leisure travel has bounced back most since the pandemic...

Two thoughts:

* Southeastern has the complication that there is no neat way of boosting the High Speed fleet, which to at least some extent is where they are falling short.

* Even if Southeastern were able to secure extra trains, where would they be stabled? Their stabling arrangements are already messy - though Southern isn’t much better.

 

[CarrotPie]

They may have cut services, but saying that is to the bone is somewhat overstated.

That's weird, because why else would TfL seriously consider stepping in?

* Southeastern has the complication that there is no neat way of boosting the High Speed fleet, which to at least some extent is where they are falling short.

Yes, which is unfortunate.

Even if Southeastern were able to secure extra trains, where would they be stabled? Their stabling arrangements are already messy - though Southern isn’t much better.

Chart Leacon, perhaps? Maybe even run some all-night metro services? *gets coat*

 

[bramling]

That's weird, because why else would TfL seriously consider stepping in?

Yes, which is unfortunate.

Chart Leacon, perhaps? Maybe even run some all-night metro services? *gets coat*

I guess Chart Leacon works for the mainline or High Speed services. Not really for metro though, and it’s quite hard to think of any “quick win” solutions that could be implemented on the metro side. Could Stewarts Lane be used, and if necessary find some space elsewhere for Southern?

 

[brad465]

I guess Chart Leacon works for the mainline or High Speed services. Not really for metro though, and it’s quite hard to think of any “quick win” solutions that could be implemented on the metro side. Could Stewarts Lane be used, and if necessary find some space elsewhere for Southern?

Chart Leacon could see mainline stabling moved to it from depots that are currently both metro and mainline, like Gillingham and Grove Park, freeing up more capacity for metro increases if needed (you couldn't completely convert them to metro though as some mainline stock has to be close to London for peak deployment). There are also stabling locations not being used very efficiently: Dartford has one carriage siding (equal to 16 cars) out of use because the third rail position was unsafe for drivers/staff walking next to it. There are also a few sidings here and there that are very rarely used, such as Beckenham, while there maybe scope to convert part of Hoo Jct yard into passenger stock stabling.

 

[Minstral25]

Southern Railway has lost 46 455s which has not been replaced and lost 19 313s which has not been replaced.

Railway travel has been going up since COVID-19. I will say that it is Southern that needs more Rolling Stock. I just think it is nonsense that people on this website are saying that Southern Railway doesn't need any more rolling stock. Southern saying that their services are increasing. That is where additional rolling stock is needed.

As I said on the previous thread - Southern also completely refigured their rolling stock requirements by major changes to Timetables, when the 455's and 313's left. Most routes are still recording 70% of pre-Covid figures but more importantly spread throughout the day - not just at peak times.

They did this partly by removing services that generally were not busy or had duplication along much of the route (like Caterham to Victoria) that reduced need for units. There are a few places they have gone too far judging by reports and the main one is the Sydenham corridor, but overcrowding is mostly on one or two services on each route which has always been the case. However it is looked at they do not need to replace all 65 units they lost, probably only need a net gain around 10-15 units.

So if they are getting all 39 class 387's south of the river (by using 379's and some 700/717s North) they can afford to lose some 377's to SouthEastern, probably around 25, if so making a net gain of around 14 units. If they keep extra 387s on GN, then reduce the numbers to SE or Southern.

The New West Coastway timetable will reduce stock need along that line as well by more efficient use of stock, meaning a few units will be released for elsewhere. And what are they likely to put back - extra service every half hour on the Sydenham corridor, reinstate the half hourly to East Grinstead, more services from Epsom to London are I think main candidates but how many extra units will this really need?

 

[CarrotPie]

So if they are getting all 39 class 387's south of the river (by using 379's and some 700/717s North) they can afford to lose some 377's to SouthEastern, probably around 25, if so making a net gain of around 14 units. If they keep extra 387s on GN, then reduce the numbers to SE or Southern.

Which 377s are expected to be going to SE? I would assume /1s or /3s for homogenity's sake, but you never know.

 

[PGAT]

The New West Coastway timetable will reduce stock need along that line as well by more efficient use of stock, meaning a few units will be released for elsewhere. And what are they likely to put back - extra service every half hour on the Sydenham corridor, reinstate the half hourly to East Grinstead, more services from Epsom to London are I think main candidates but how many extra units will this really need?

Extra services to East Grinstead and Epsom use enough units in the peak that they could theoretically be extended off-peak as well

Which 377s are expected to be going to SE? I would assume /1s or /3s for homogenity's sake, but you never know.

377/1s

 

[Stephen42]

As I said on the previous thread - Southern also completely refigured their rolling stock requirements by major changes to Timetables, when the 455's and 313's left. Most routes are still recording 70% of pre-Covid figures but more importantly spread throughout the day - not just at peak times.

They did this partly by removing services that generally were not busy or had duplication along much of the route (like Caterham to Victoria) that reduced need for units. There are a few places they have gone too far judging by reports and the main one is the Sydenham corridor, but overcrowding is mostly on one or two services on each route which has always been the case. However it is looked at they do not need to replace all 65 units they lost, probably only need a net gain around 10-15 units.

So if they are getting all 39 class 387's south of the river (by using 379's and some 700/717s North) they can afford to lose some 377's to SouthEastern, probably around 25, if so making a net gain of around 14 units. If they keep extra 387s on GN, then reduce the numbers to SE or Southern.

The New West Coastway timetable will reduce stock need along that line as well by more efficient use of stock, meaning a few units will be released for elsewhere. And what are they likely to put back - extra service every half hour on the Sydenham corridor, reinstate the half hourly to East Grinstead, more services from Epsom to London are I think main candidates but how many extra units will this really need?

Southeastern are unlikely to take on as many as 25, a procurement notice from 6 months ago suggests it would be up to 17 class 377s. Southern would probably receive fewer than 30 units as the ECML timetable change would increase the units Great Northern require. The ones Southeastern take would be displacing existing stock and reducing cost of fleet replacement rather than an increase of available units. It seems the like the 379 deal will be an improvement for both operators rather than one at the cost of another.

 

[nw1]

Not sure which needs the stock the most, but I do notice a difference in attitude between the two TOCs.

Southeastern seems to be more proactive in running peak extras and indeed improving peak provision, with a raft of enhancements coming in June.

Southern seems to be rather like SWR in maintaining a thinner service with practically no peak enhancements (only one I can see for outer-suburban is a frequency increase on East Grinstead in the peak).

Seems to be quite a notable division into two camps for London commuter TOCs. Some such as Southeastern, Greater Anglia, LNWR and Chiltern have either maintained the full pre-Covid off-peak timetable or proactively re-designed their timetables compared to pre-Covid and all these four have significant peak enhancement, with Southeastern and Greater Anglia introducing further enhancements in June. Others such as SWR, Southern and GWR still seem to be running "pre-Covid with holes" style timetables and these three are all notable for little in the way of peak enhancement.

For a rail enthusiast POV it does mean that my local TOCs, SWR primarily and also Southern, are rather dull at the moment, I will say; the current timetables on both are, IMO, by far the least interesting since before 1982 and probably well before that. By contrast if you lived somewhere like Shenfield you've got Greater Anglia plus the Elizabeth Line - in some parts of the London and SE, things appear to be far more positive than round here.

 

[Minstral25]

377/1s

SouthEastern are unlikely to take on as many as 25, a procurement notice from 6 months ago suggests it would be up to 17 class 377s. Southern would probably receive fewer than 30 units as the ECML timetable change would increase the units Great Northern require. The ones SouthEastern take would be displacing existing stock and reducing cost of fleet replacement rather than an increase of available units. It seems the like the 379 deal will be an improvement for both operators rather than one at the cost of another.

Send SE 20, precisely nos. 377 120 to 377 139 please - the ones with 3+2 along almost all of the unit.

Assume if Great Northern get 30 379's then Southern will probably get 30 plus of the 39 387's to replace them, which will enable strengthening and a few extra services. Shame it is likely they will put the 387s on the Coastways, as 387's are ideal commuter units.

 

[JonathanH]

For a rail enthusiast POV it does mean that my local TOCs, SWR primarily and also Southern, are rather dull at the moment, I will say; the current timetables on both are, IMO, by far the least interesting since before 1982 and probably well before that. By contrast if you lived somewhere like Shenfield you've got Greater Anglia plus the Elizabeth Line - in some parts of the London and SE, things appear to be far more positive than round here.

I'm not sure the timetables are run from the point of view of a rail enthusiast. It should be noted that one of the principles of the May 2018 timetable change on Southern was to run the same service all day, rather than the timetable which had built up over the years with lots of different services running to meet perceived demand. It was seen as being more straightforward to operate with the same signalling decisions each half hour. South West Trains in 2004, as developed since, was much the same thing. Gone are the days when the major stations had their headline services to London.

Seems to be quite a notable division into two camps for London commuter TOCs. Some such as Southeastern, Greater Anglia, LNWR and Chiltern have either maintained the full pre-Covid off-peak timetable or proactively re-designed their timetables compared to pre-Covid and all these four have significant peak enhancement, with Southeastern and Greater Anglia introducing further enhancements in June. Others such as SWR, Southern and GWR still seem to be running "pre-Covid with holes" style timetables and these three are all notable for little in the way of peak enhancement.

There are geographical reasons why the operators on the east of London need to cope with higher demand and those on the western side don't While it is a massive and perhaps unfair generalisation, the people who live in the more affluent parts of London such as those served by SWR and Southern are precisely those who can work from home more easily than those in the parts of London served by other operators.

Not sure which needs the stock the most, but I do notice a difference in attitude between the two TOCs.

Southeastern seems to be more proactive in running peak extras and indeed improving peak provision, with a raft of enhancements coming in June.

Southern seems to be rather like SWR in maintaining a thinner service with practically no peak enhancements (only one I can see for outer-suburban is a frequency increase on East Grinstead in the peak).

East Grinstead is more a reduction off-peak to recognise that demand during the day doesn't justify more than an hourly service, than an enhancement in the peak. The service on the Victoria to Epsom route is similar.

Southeastern do much the same thing with services to Tunbridge Wells that now don't run at an enhanced frequency all day. Part of their enhancement in the peak is due to the history of Cannon Street as the service for the city workers.

In general, there seems to be a realisation on both the Southeastern and Southern networks that it is reasonable to cut some of the services that are no longer necessary, particularly between the peaks.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

For a rail enthusiast POV it does mean that my local TOCs, SWR primarily and also Southern, are rather dull at the moment, I will say; the current timetables on both are, IMO, by far the least interesting since before 1982 and probably well before that. By contrast if you lived somewhere like Shenfield you've got Greater Anglia plus the Elizabeth Line - in some parts of the London and SE, things appear to be far more positive than round here.

I know what you mean, no more 12x377 diagrams off peak. No more Victoria to Tat/Cat fasts, even the mighty former SWT operation has notably shrunk the number of carriages per diagram. Very much looking forward to a timetable resembling 2019 again.

 

[JonathanH]

Very much looking forward to a timetable resembling 2019 again.

Returning to the 2019 timetable isn't going to happen. It doesn't reflect the new levels of demand, and more importantly the new level of revenue.

It would be great to see demand increasing, but it wouldn't necessarily lead to the same timetable as there was in 2019 because the patterns of demand won't be the same. The rail operators need to identify which services are necessary to meet demand, not look back to the 2019 pattern.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Returning to the 2019 timetable isn't going to happen. It doesn't reflect the new levels of demand, and more importantly the new level of revenue.

Well maybe in five years...

They thought the railways were finished in the mid-90s and they came roaring back. Anything could happen.

 

[bramling]

I'm not sure the timetables are run from the point of view of a rail enthusiast. It should be noted that one of the principles of the May 2018 timetable change on Southern was to run the same service all day, rather than the timetable which had built up over the years with lots of different services running to meet perceived demand. It was seen as being more straightforward to operate with the same signalling decisions each half hour. South West Trains in 2004, as developed since, was much the same thing. Gone are the days when the major stations had their headline services to London.


There are geographical reasons why the operators on the east of London need to cope with higher demand and those on the western side don't While it is a massive and perhaps unfair generalisation, the people who live in the more affluent parts of London such as those served by SWR and Southern are precisely those who can work from home more easily than those in the parts of London served by other operators.


East Grinstead is more a reduction off-peak to recognise that demand during the day doesn't justify more than an hourly service, than an enhancement in the peak. The service on the Victoria to Epsom route is similar.

Southeastern do much the same thing with services to Tunbridge Wells that now don't run at an enhanced frequency all day. Part of their enhancement in the peak is due to the history of Cannon Street as the service for the city workers.

In general, there seems to be a realisation on both the Southeastern and Southern networks that it is reasonable to cut some of the services that are no longer necessary, particularly between the peaks.

“No longer necessary” is quite subjective. An hourly service of long trains may accommodate everyone, however it isn’t a particularly attractive nor useful service, especially in an area where there continues to be considerable housebuilding.

If the government wants people to avoid using road transport then this just isn’t good enough.

 

[PGAT]

“No longer necessary” is quite subjective. An hourly service of long trains may accommodate everyone, however it isn’t a particularly attractive nor useful service, especially in an area where there continues to be considerable housebuilding.

If the government wants people to avoid using road transport then this just isn’t good enough.

100% just because a train isn't bursting full doesn't mean the service is adequate

 

[bramling]

100% just because a train isn't bursting full doesn't mean the service is adequate

Exactly. It’s all just another example of “Britain screwed”, which seems to be a theme with pretty much everything, especially anything which politicians have got their grubby hands on over recent (and not-so-recent) times.

Hourly off-peak to a major town like East Grinstead just isn’t good enough by any measure.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Exactly. It’s all just another example of “Britain screwed”, which seems to be a theme with pretty much everything, especially anything which politicians have got their grubby hands on over recent (and not-so-recent) times.

Hourly off-peak to a major town like East Grinstead just isn’t good enough by any measure.

It isn't but demand has dropped back considerably from pre covid. Also East Grinstead has wide catchment area so maybe the better services on offer from Three Bridges / Horley means passengers prefer to drive there.

 

[nw1]

Well maybe in five years...

They thought the railways were finished in the mid-90s and they came roaring back. Anything could happen.

+1 to this.

Just like in the late 10s it was assumed that the railways would have a bright future and the main problem was insufficient paths for the service level required to meet demand.
Looked at the 2019 SWR timetable the other day. It's enough to make you weep what's happened since.

I'm encouraged by recent improvements on some TOCs and hope SWR catch up soon. My own feeling is this may well happen once the 701s arrive; the lack of stock is SWR's main problem right now.

Exactly. It’s all just another example of “Britain screwed”, which seems to be a theme with pretty much everything, especially anything which politicians have got their grubby hands on over recent (and not-so-recent) times.

Hourly off-peak to a major town like East Grinstead just isn’t good enough by any measure.

What's unusual about East Grinstead is that half-hourly is present not just on Saturday all day (expected, perhaps) but also Sunday too.

Thus, all stations on the branch join Beaulieu Road in that the Sunday service is superior to Mon-Fri off peak. Indeed, for a line as a whole, that must be an almost unique occurrence.

At least, and almost uniquely for Southern, the East Grinstead timetable is interesting from an enthusiast POV I guess (I know that's not an important consideration in the scheme of things!) From 1tph off-peak to 2tph Southern AND 2tph Thameslink in the peak, with an even-interval frequency too.

100% just because a train isn't bursting full doesn't mean the service is adequate

Indeed, it might be the other way round. The train isn't bursting because the service isn't adequate (hence not attracting passengers), in some cases, perhaps.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

One interesting prospect over the next 10 years is the possible introduction of a four day week which could, in theory, see 4 days in the office as a trade-off for an extra weekend day. That would essentially take us back to 2019.

+1 to this.

Just like in the late 10s it was assumed that the railways would have a bright future and the main problem was insufficient paths for the service level required to meet demand.
Looked at the 2019 SWR timetable the other day. It's enough to make you weep what's happened since.

I'm encouraged by recent improvements on some TOCs and hope SWR catch up soon. My own feeling is this may well happen once the 701s arrive; the lack of stock is SWR's main problem right now.



What's unusual about East Grinstead is that half-hourly is present not just on Saturday all day (expected, perhaps) but also Sunday too.

Thus, all stations on the branch join Beaulieu Road in that the Sunday service is superior to Mon-Fri off peak. Indeed, for a line as a whole, that must be an almost unique occurrence.

At least, and almost uniquely for Southern, the East Grinstead timetable is interesting from an enthusiast POV I guess (I know that's not an important consideration in the scheme of things!) From 1tph off-peak to 2tph Southern AND 2tph Thameslink in the peak, with an even-interval frequency too.



Indeed, it might be the other way round. The train isn't bursting because the service isn't adequate (hence not attracting passengers), in some cases, perhaps.

Not sure if you’ve ever read the blog London Reconnections, but back in 2014-2016 it really was a magical place. There was so much unbounded optimism for the railways when 2050 demand was going to be like 10x higher than what it was at present. I remember all the crazy fortune-telling of the time, one line was that London and the SouthEast will need one new entire main line per decade to keep up with travel demand. Crossrail will be saturated on day 1 of opening etc etc. It went quiet after Brexit and totally silent after COVID

 

[Sutton in Ant]

I just wonder if Southeastern Railway uses all of the rolling stock that they have available to them. I can tell that their 375s are mainly used on the branch's Kent Coast section, but does Southeastern Railway utilise all of the available rolling stock available to them? Let's say that Southeastern has a shortage of rolling stock for their metro routes as some of their trains needs repairs and their some of their 375s are not being used and are sitting idle in the railway storage. They can use them on the metro routes like Southern does with the 377s.

Southern has a big branch that they have to cover themselves. From the metro to the east coast way and the west coast way. Southern has always had to utilise their available rolling stock and as the Southeastern railway has a lot more in the way of rolling stock? My question is this. Does Southeastern Railway need any more 377s? My answer is no and does Southern Railway need the 387s that could be cascaded from Great Northern? My answer is yes.