Who needs the additional rolling stock more? Southern or Southeastern Railway.

[brad465]

Southern has a big branch that they have to cover themselves. From the metro to the east coast way and the west coast way. Southern has always had to utilise their available rolling stock and as the Southeastern railway has a lot more in the way of rolling stock? My question is this. Does Southeastern Railway need any more 377s? My answer is no and does Southern Railway need the 387s that could be cascaded from Great Northern? My answer is yes.

If Southeastern get extra 377s it won't be for extra stock overall, it will more likely be to send more Networkers to storage, which is the only way they can get rid of them while the DfT refuse to approve the order of an entirely new fleet. Southeastern currently cannot expand their fleet due to stabling space limitations, even if the passenger demand is there. In an alternative reality, where the 707s moved across but covid-induced travel reductions never happened, it's possible Chart Leacon (the most likely candidate for boosting capacity) would have reopened and either allowed all 707s to be a capacity boost, or maybe replace some Networkers but still provide a net capacity boost.

 

[Mikey C]

Not sure if you’ve ever read the blog London Reconnections, but back in 2014-2016 it really was a magical place. There was so much unbounded optimism for the railways when 2050 demand was going to be like 10x higher than what it was at present. I remember all the crazy fortune-telling of the time, one line was that London and the SouthEast will need one new entire main line per decade to keep up with travel demand. Crossrail will be saturated on day 1 of opening etc etc. It went quiet after Brexit and totally silent after COVID

A down side is stock in that period being delivered with massive areas of standing capacity to cater for this expected growth. If the 700s were being delivered now, I imagine they'd have more comfortably spaced seats as the whole driver towards the 700 style design wouldn't exist.

If Southeastern get extra 377s it won't be for extra stock overall, it will more likely be to send more Networkers to storage, which is the only way they can get rid of them while the DfT refuse to approve the order of an entirely new fleet. Southeastern currently cannot expand their fleet due to stabling space limitations, even if the passenger demand is there. In an alternative reality, where the 707s moved across but covid-induced travel reductions never happened, it's possible Chart Leacon (the most likely candidate for boosting capacity) would have reopened and either allowed all 707s to be a capacity boost, or maybe replace some Networkers but still provide a net capacity boost.

With the 376s and 707s, Southeastern have plenty of "Metro" stock, and it's logical to have 377s operating mid distance services instead of Networkers, even ones like the 465/9 which aren't particularly nice on such services.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

A down side is stock in that period being delivered with massive areas of standing capacity to cater for this expected growth. If the 700s were being delivered now, I imagine they'd have more comfortably spaced seats as the whole driver towards the 700 style design wouldn't exist.


With the 376s and 707s, Southeastern have plenty of "Metro" stock, and it's logical to have 377s operating mid distance services instead of Networkers, even ones like the 465/9 which aren't particularly nice on such services.

Oh yes. I would agree on the 376s and the 707s covering the metro routes but I would think that the Southeastern railway could use the remaining 375s that don't get used on the Kent coastline and the 377/5s to do the mid journeys.

 

[JonathanH]

A down side is stock in that period being delivered with massive areas of standing capacity to cater for this expected growth. If the 700s were being delivered now, I imagine they'd have more comfortably spaced seats as the whole driver towards the 700 style design wouldn't exist.

That clearly isn't true. The brand new 730/1s have an interior designed much like a 700, although it is better appointed. Standing capacity is still needed, perhaps more so given the more lumpy passenger use over the course of a week.

Any Networker replacements will be built with fewer seats than the Networkers. Depending on how large the order for Networker replacement is, there would be a good case for the 376s moving to the innermost Southern metro routes, perhaps as a further increment in the increase of Southern capacity, allowing 377s to move to other work, obviously with whatever retrofit is needed to make them suitable, like DOO cameras. (Remember the 2019 plan for 376s to be the Uckfield line replacement stock, that never happened.)

 

[brad465]

With the 376s and 707s, Southeastern have plenty of "Metro" stock, and it's logical to have 377s operating mid distance services instead of Networkers, even ones like the 465/9 which aren't particularly nice on such services.

Southeastern's biggest issue IMO is they have too many micro-fleets, even if some of them are fairly similar. 376s and 707s are only 36x and 30 strong respectively, compared to 147x 465s and 43x 466s when including the minority in storage. Likewise, there are only 23x 377s at Southeastern, if 17x came over from Southern that goes up to 40x, but is still dwarfed by the 112x 375s (granted 377s are not a microfleet overall when the ones at Southern are added).

 

[CarrotPie]

. I can tell that their 375s are mainly used on the branch's Kent Coast section, but does Southeastern Railway utilise all of the available rolling stock available to them?

Yes, unsurprisingly. There's very little point in paying leasing costs for stock you don't use...

Southern has always had to utilise their available rolling stock and as the Southeastern railway has a lot more in the way of rolling stock?

You what?

My question is this. Does Southeastern Railway need any more 377s?

Ideally.

does Southern Railway need the 387s that could be cascaded from Great Northern?

Most definitely.

Depending on how large the order for Networker replacement is, there would be a good case for the 376s moving to the innermost Southern metro routes, perhaps as a further increment in the increase of Southern capacity, allowing 377s to move to other work, obviously with whatever retrofit is needed to make them suitable, like DOO cameras.

*+1*

Southeastern's biggest issue IMO is they have too many micro-fleets, even if some of them are fairly similar. 376s and 707s are only 36x and 30 strong respectively, compared to 147x 465s and 43x 466s when including the minority in storage. Likewise, there are only 23x 377s at Southeastern, if 17x came over from Southern that goes up to 40x, but is still dwarfed by the 112x 375s (granted 377s are not a microfleet overall when the ones at Southern are added).

A "microfleet" is 15 units or less. 376s and 707s are merely "small fleets", as opposed to the 465s, which are a "megafleet". The 377/5s are similar enough to the 375/6/7/8s that they can operationally be considered homogeneous. This leaves the 375/3s, 375/9s, 376s, mainline 375/377s, 395, 465s, 466s and 707s.

When the Networker mass extinction arrives, hopefully it will end to like GA, where the four diverse metro fleets become one homogeneous one. Perhaps the 707s will end up in the North one day...?

 

[ScotGG]

I guess Chart Leacon works for the mainline or High Speed services. Not really for metro though, and it’s quite hard to think of any “quick win” solutions that could be implemented on the metro side. Could Stewarts Lane be used, and if necessary find some space elsewhere for Southern?

Is there a reason Plumstead is never considered? Space for half a dozen 12-car sidings. It's Network Rail land. Formerly a goods yard. Used for Crossrail construction but that's now finished. Land sitting there unused beside the existing Plumstead sidings which have access points for drivers near Nathan Manorway.

Well maybe in five years...

They thought the railways were finished in the mid-90s and they came roaring back. Anything could happen.

London Overground is already around 100 per cent of 2019 levels. Difference is they didn't cut like rail operators south of the river which has hampered recovery.

Given the sheer growth in people within London and new housing being built those who think London won't return to 2019 levels on rail are misguided.

Outside London on longer distance SE, GTR and SWR into the city? Maybe. Within London on Metro/suburbans? Restore services and it'll be back to those prior levels. Maybe the high peaks won't be so bad but compensated elsewhere See Elizabeth line, DLR, London Overground already.

 

[CarrotPie]

Outside London on longer distance SE, GTR and SWR into the city? Maybe. Within London on Metro/suburbans? Restore services and it'll be back to those prior levels. Maybe the high peaks won't be so bad but compensated elsewhere See Elizabeth line, DLR, London Overground already.

If the high peaks aren't so bad, that's good. Sharp peaks in passenger numbers cause highly inefficient use of rolling stock compared to a flatter line.

 

[bramling]

If the high peaks aren't so bad, that's good. Sharp peaks in passenger numbers cause highly inefficient use of rolling stock compared to a flatter line.

This isn’t always true. A lot of maintenance happens between the peaks. So an all-day off peak service can end up with almost as many trains as it’s necessary to have more spare trains to cover the higher utilisation.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Some are saying on here which I need to reply to. CarrotPie told You what? When I said that Southern Railways having to utilise their rolling. I can say that it is true. Southern Railway the main rolling stock no is 377 has to kind of send the rolling stock from the metro to the south coast which is like 377141 1 day it will do a metro route and next day will do a coast way service. I maybe wrong but I don't see Southeastern trains do that with the 375s.

Another thing that I see is that every time people moan and rightly so about the networkers. I see people writing down that Southeastern railways are rumoured to be wanting more 377s from Southern. Don't get me wrong is that if the shoe was on the other foot and Southeastern railway were having rolling stock shortage. I would be advocating for Southeastern to have more rolling stock.

Southeastern Railways has the 376s and the 707s that can do the metro, Then you have the 375s and the 377/5s that can do services to Gillingham, Ashford International, Faversham, Dover Priory, Ramsgate, Sandwich, plus also there is HS1 which is covered by the 395s 1 more is that the service to Hastings, plus services to Broadstairs, Deal, Herne Bay, Margate, Otford and Whitstable.

I could say that there is enough rolling stock for Southeastern not to need the 377/1s from Southern Railway.

I do think that Southern do need the rolling stock more than Southeastern Railway.

Here are many rolling stocks that Southern Railway has lost.

46. 455s. Not been replaced.

19. 313s. Again not replaced.

I will leave it there.

 

[CarrotPie]

Some are saying on here which I need to reply to. CarrotPie told You what? When I said that Southern Railways having to utilise their rolling. I can say that it is true. Southern Railway the main rolling stock no is 377 has to kind of send the rolling stock from the metro to the south coast which is like 377141 1 day it will do a metro route and next day will do a coast way service.

I don't follow.

I maybe wrong but I don't see Southeastern trains do that with the 375s.

SE don't use 375s on metro services. Their diagrams and CWNs are online.

I could say that there is enough rolling stock for Southeastern not to need the 377/1s from Southern Railway.

Yes, but sellotape can only keep the Networkers running for so long...

I do think that Southern do need the rolling stock more than Southeastern Railway.

They both need some.

Here are many rolling stocks that Southern Railway has lost.

46. 455s. Not been replaced.

19. 313s. Again not replaced.

Do they need to be fully replaced though? And if so, with what? There isn't enough spare stock kicking around to replace it all.

 

[PGAT]

Just throwing this out there, with the 455s and 313s removed Southern had about 77% of their 2019 fleet (79% carriages). This is tricky because on one side it's easy to argue this is enough to maintain current demand levels comfortably, but it's also easy to argue that just a few more surplus units could catalyse recovery

 

[Sutton in Ant]

I don't follow.

SE don't use 375s on metro services. Their diagrams and CWNs are online.

Yes, but sellotape can only keep the Networkers running for so long...

They both need some.

Do they need to be fully replaced though? And if so, with what? There isn't enough spare stock kicking around to replace it all.

Well. With the networkers need to be fully replaced. I have seen that in December 2022. Southeastern Railway put in a tender to the government for new trains to replace the networkers. I just think that in good time the networkers will be replaced by new rolling stock.

The 1st paragraph is this. Southern only has the 377s as their main source of rolling stock. Southern has also got the Turbostars that work the Uckfield and Eastbourne to Ashford International but that is it. Southeastern has around 4 or 5 different types of rolling stock. So in my argument. Southern Railways do need more rolling stock as there a petitions going around about commuters complaining about the losing the fast London Victoria to Dorking and Horsham and another petitions saying about services going to London Bridge via Carshalton that needs to be reinstated as well.

 

[CarrotPie]

Well. With the networkers need to be fully replaced. I have seen that in December 2022. Southeastern Railway put in a tender to the government for new trains to replace the networkers. I just think that in good time the networkers will be replaced by new rolling stock.

Indeed they will be. However, SE would like to get rid of them a bit quicker than that.

The 1st paragraph is this. Southern only has the 377s as their main source of rolling stock. Southern has also got the Turbostars that work the Uckfield and Eastbourne to Ashford International but that is it. Southeastern has around 4 or 5 different types of rolling stock. So in my argument. Southern Railways do need more rolling stock

Just because SE have more types of rolling stock doesn't mean they don't need more (oh god...). They can both need rolling stock and both get more. It would help SN if they scrapped the farce that is GX, which would free up almost two dozen units. Then they have a fleet of 377s and 387s, which can interwork and will provide a full metro/regional fleet.

 

[JonathanH]

It would help SN if they scrapped the farce that is GX, which would free up almost two dozen units.

That wouldn't help matters. Southern would just have to use the same stock to run a very similar service from Victoria to Brighton.

 

[Minstral25]

Here are many rolling stocks that Southern Railway has lost.

46. 455s. Not been replaced.

19. 313s. Again not replaced.

I will leave it there.

Southern Railway have also reduced their services accordingly and no longer need these units. They were taken out for two reasons, they were old and lacked Air-con, they weren't needed to run services.

So in my argument. Southern Railways do need more rolling stock as there a petitions going around about commuters complaining about the losing the fast London Victoria to Dorking and Horsham and another petitions saying about services going to London Bridge via Carshalton that needs to be reinstated as well.

There are some pinch points on Southern's Network which will probably be addressed in next few Timetable changes. The two you mention I agree are issues and the Hackbridge Rail Users seem to have started something but only 614 signatures

That wouldn't help matters. Southern would just have to use the same stock to run a very similar service from Victoria to Brighton.

100%

 

[CarrotPie]

They were taken out for two reasons, they were old and lacked Air-con, they weren't needed to run services.

They were needed to run services. However, rightly or otherwise, SN have now reduces their service level such that they no longer needed the 2nd gen EMUs.

That wouldn't help matters. Southern would just have to use the same stock to run a very similar service from Victoria to Brighton.

But having it part of a common fleet allows it to be used more efficiently. A replacement service could make more stops and go to different locations, rather than just be a direct green replacement.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Southern Railway have also reduced their services accordingly and no longer need these units. They were taken out for two reasons, they were old and lacked Air-con, they weren't needed to run services.



There are some pinch points on Southern's Network which will probably be addressed in next few Timetable changes. The two you mention I agree are issues and the Hackbridge Rail Users seem to have started something but only 614 signatures



100%

With the petition. It has only been going for a week and there could be scope for more signature.