Why are 9Fs banned from the national network? (What's wrong with flangeless wheels?)

[Bevan Price]

E.S.Cox's book "Locomotive Panorama" includes a drawing of a 2-8-2 loco with 5 ft. 3 inch driving wheels that had been proposed, until Riddles insisted on a 2-10-0 design. Might be an interesting project for "new build" enthusiasts.

Cox also mentions the "high speed" exploits by 9Fs, and apparently there were no adverse effects. However, "higher authority" stopped repeats, being of afraid of criticism by "Ministry Inpecting Officers" if a 9F ever shed connecting rods at high speed. (And according to Cox, "they" only discovered about the 90 mph 9F after reading a Railway Magazine article by W.A. Tuplin.)

Despite that "ban", I once had a 9F reach about 77 mph on a railtour, circa 1964.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I have no idea if it would be possible to identify a route or routes free of raised check rails that a 9F could use.

Finding such a route may be possible, but finding such a route for which all the potential diversions in case of operational issues on the day are also suitable would probably be somewhat more difficult.

 

[a_c_skinner]

The other question is what is the advantage of raised checkrails and flangeways?

I'm not about to suggest they should be changed, but wonder why we have them.

Andrew

 

[341o2]

I remember reading that 9Fs could reach quite a speed if they were standing in for a failure and when pushed. I'm sure I read somewhere that speeds of 90 mph had been known on occasion.

Link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_9F

Quote

On one occasion, a 9F was set to haul an express passenger train, in place of the normal LNER "Pacific", from Grantham to King's Cross. An enthusiast aboard the train timed the run and noted that twice the speed exceeded 90 mph. The driver was afterwards told that he was only supposed to keep time, "not break the bloody sound barrier!" He replied that the engine had no speedometer, and that it ran so smoothly at high speeds that he just let it run as fast as felt safe

 

[furnessvale]

The other question is what is the advantage of raised checkrails and flangeways?

I'm not about to suggest they should be changed, but wonder why we have them.

Andrew

Better guidance of the wheelset. Remember the check rail is there to stop the wheel on the other end of the axle from the one in contact with it, from misbehaving. A raised checkrail gives a much greater surface area in contact with the back of the wheel being checked.

 

[kermit]

Link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_9F

Quote

On one occasion, a 9F was set to haul an express passenger train, in place of the normal LNER "Pacific", from Grantham to King's Cross. An enthusiast aboard the train timed the run and noted that twice the speed exceeded 90 mph. The driver was afterwards told that he was only supposed to keep time, "not break the bloody sound barrier!" He replied that the engine had no speedometer, and that it ran so smoothly at high speeds that he just let it run as fast as felt safe

9Fs had no speedos? Or just that one??

 

[Bevan Price]

9Fs had no speedos? Or just that one??

Many steam locos had no speedos - widespread fitting only commenced in the mid 1950s, initially to those express passenger locos lacking a speedometer, and then including mixed traffic locos such as Stanier Black 5s

I think it only became more urgent after the Sutton Coldfield derailment due to excessive speed.

.

 

[341o2]

9Fs had no speedos? Or just that one??

Or perhaps the driver was bill hoole??

 

[ainsworth74]

Or perhaps the driver was bill hoole??

In case anyone else was wondering an article here provides a bit of background as to who Bill Hoole was and why he was notable in terms of speed:

The 23rd May 2009 saw 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley running from York to London, 50 years to the day since more than 100 years of steam traction on the East Coast Mainline culminated in one last record-breaking run for the Gresley A4 Class. In 1959 steam still reigned supreme on East Coast expresses but diesel traction was already on the horizon and in this Indian summer some of the finest steam running of all time was produced. This is the story of the 'official' post war record for Steam Traction of 112 mph.

The story really starts in November 1955 with a run of the Tyne Tees Pullman; accounts vary a little but what is for sure is that a civil engineer with a Hallade Track recording instrument was on board a train when driver Bill Hoole took 60007 down Stoke Bank very fast indeed. Whether Hoole knew the man was on board is unclear but the technician clocked 117mph. This was well in excess of the official 90mph speed limit so the motive power department had to mount a staunch rearguard action to prevent serious disciplinary action. The Hallade instrument was not designed for recording such speeds and it was argued that the accuracy was insufficient to justify disciplinary action. In any case word of 117mph was allowed to reach Western Region ears who were at the time pushing 'King' class locomotives over 100 mph.

With the arrival of the first express diesels on the East Coast route in autumn 1958, it was clear that the days of the A4s as Top Link motive power were numbered so the idea of a farewell high-speed trip over the East Coast Main Line to coincide with the Golden Jubilee of the Stephenson Locomotive Society (SLS) found sympathetic ears at Great Northern House. The obvious choice of motive power and driver was 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley and Bill Hoole.

[Continues...]

 

[Taunton]

sympathetic ears at Great Northern House

Gerry Fiennes presumably. He was GN Line Manager at the time. He also mentions Bill Hoole's ability to speed in his book.

 

[Phil.]

Many steam locos had no speedos - widespread fitting only commenced in the mid 1950s, initially to those express passenger locos lacking a speedometer, and then including mixed traffic locos such as Stanier Black 5s

I think it only became more urgent after the Sutton Coldfield derailment due to excessive speed.

.

Early Southern E.M.U.s didn't have speedometers either. The only instruments that a SUB had were a duplex brake gauge and an ammeter.

 

[Poolie]

92167 ended its days as a 2-8-2. Plenty of photos of it on shed, but none that I can find out on the road

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Some of my Hornby locos have flangeless wheels, they work fine. Not quite the same though.

 

[furnessvale]

Some of my Hornby locos have flangeless wheels, they work fine. Not quite the same though.

But does your track have raised check rails?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Nope, but I bet its got some black plastic rails!

 

[Cowley]

My old Triang class 31 had fake middle wheels under the power bogie, they didn't even touch the rails. Maybe they should try that for a main line 9F

 

[Spartacus]

The old 9F was the same!