Why are Bristol to Cardiff tickets routed "via Newport"?

[AdamWW]

Tickets between Bristol and Cardiff seem to have a "via Newport" route restriction.

Does anyone know why that is?

Not surprisingly, if I try asking for routes avoiding Newport nothing valid comes up. I suppose one could avoid it with a very convoluted route via the Heart of Wales line but that seems rather a long way round to be a permitted route.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Seems fair enough to me. What else do you expect? There aren't any alternative routes that members of the public would expect to take unless through services were to be diverted via Gloucester and Lydney. Is this causing you a problem in trying to avoid rail replacement buses?

 

[AdamWW]

Seems fair enough to me. What else do you expect?

I would expect the ticket to be routed "Any permitted" as is normally the case where there is only one valid route.

There aren't any alternative routes that members of the public would expect to take unless through services were to be diverted via Gloucester and Lydney.

They'd still go via Newport anyway.

Is this causing you a problem in trying to avoid rail replacement buses?

No. Just curiosity.

I'm not used to seeing a pair of stations that don't appear to have "Any permitted" tickets between them.

 

[Wallsendmag]

There was a project a while ago to replace Any Permitted with something more meaningful (and no I have no idea how . Is more meaningful )

 

[AdamWW]

There was a project a while ago to replace Any Permitted with something more meaningful (and no I have no idea how . Is more meaningful )

Ah. I can see some logic to that (and it does sound vaguely familiar). But as I'm used to how things used to work, it just confuses me.

And I would have thought that even more meaningful would just be not to print either
"Valid via any permitted route"
OR
"Valid only via Newport"
on the ticket though...

Since there's no other logical route, why even mention routes on the ticket?

 

[Watershed]

Ah. I can see some logic to that (and it does sound vaguely familiar). But as I'm used to how things used to work, it just confuses me.

And I would have thought that even more meaningful would just be not to print either
"Valid via any permitted route"
OR
"Valid only via Newport"
on the ticket though...

Since there's no other logical route, why even mention routes on the ticket?

Indeed. It's part of the inane drive to "simply" ticketing by restating the bleeding obvious...

 

[AdamWW]

Indeed. It's part of the inane drive to "simply" ticketing by restating the bleeding obvious...

Hmm.

I wonder if this would cause problems in journey planners if there was ever an express rail replacement service that didn't call in at Newport.

I suppose if so it could be fixed with a temporary easement.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I'm not used to seeing a pair of stations that don't appear to have "Any permitted" tickets between them.

Plenty of such examples around the network. I notice from BR Fares that there are both GW Only and XC Only fares for this flow. My guess is the via Newport designation is a ham-fisted attempt to provide a routing for the inter-available fares. I've not checked the Routing Guide: would Any Permitted allow via Gloucester in any case? I sometimes think that Fares Managers should all be recruited from within the membership of this forum!

 

[AdamWW]

I've not checked the Routing Guide: would Any Permitted allow via Gloucester in any case?

I don't know but it would still go via Newport anyway.

Plenty of such examples around the network. I notice from BR Fares that there are both GW Only and XC Only fares for this flow.

Interesting. They don't seem to appear on travel planners.

My guess is the via Newport designation is a ham-fisted attempt to provide a routing for the inter-available fares.

Any permitted would do that just as well, wouldn't it?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Any permitted would do that just as well, wouldn't it?

Of course. But maybe the manager responsible doesn't like passengers seeking to take advantage of the options so often available through the Any Permitted designation and therefore chose not to use it in this case even if it likely makes no difference.

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course. But maybe the manager responsible doesn't like passengers seeking to take advantage of the options so often available through the Any Permitted designation and therefore chose not to use it in this case even if it likely makes no difference.

Any Permitted is a very unhelpful designator as many people do read this as “any route is permitted”.

No problem with a geographic designator even when every service goes via said place.

 

[mangyiscute]

Yeah any permitted really means "any route permitted by the routeing guide is permitted" but obviously that would be useless to almost everyone. Hence trying to summarise the routeing guide restrictions in a short routeing restriction on the ticket is a good idea imo. As you say though, perhaps this one could be updated to be more helpful, since any practical route would go through Newport and also, checking the routeing guide, via Gloucester is not allowed. Something like via Severn Tunnel or via Patchway could be better, but then perhaps passengers wouldn't know where these places are.

 

[Haywain]

Interesting. They don't seem to appear on travel planners.

They are Advance fares. I expect the XC fares would require travel via Gloucester and possibly Cheltenham.

Any permitted would do that just as well, wouldn't it?

As stated in post #4, there has been a long standing project to remove Any Permitted and the alternative "." should only be used when there are no other routes. The Advance fares preclude that.

 

[AdamWW]

Any Permitted is a very unhelpful designator as many people do read this as “any route is permitted”.

No problem with a geographic designator even when every service goes via said place.

I think it depends on how the ticket is formatted.

I can see that "Route: Any permitted" is ambigious. And "Route: Via Newport" doesn't look too odd to me.

But if - as printed tickets in the new format do, it says "Valid via any permitted route" I think it's pretty clear what that means.
And "Valid only via Newport" looks strange to me because normally a ticket of any kind wouldn't specificy a particular validity when there is no alternative.

Of course. But maybe the manager responsible doesn't like passengers seeking to take advantage of the options so often available through the Any Permitted designation and therefore chose not to use it in this case even if it likely makes no difference.

If the routing guide allows certain routes, surely there must be a requirement for an inter-available ticket to be available that lets someone use them?

Actually, thinking about the earlier comment about GWR-only fares, I thought the dominant operator on a route wasn't allowed to set operator-only flexible standard class fares.
OK it seems they are advance fares and clearly that's different.

As stated in post #4, there has been a long standing project to remove Any Permitted and the alternative "." should only be used when there are no other routes. The Advance fares preclude that.

Yes I saw that but I was responding to what I thought was a different suggestion for why it might have been done.

What is the "."?

 

[Haywain]

If the routing guide allows certain routes, surely there must be a requirement for an inter-available ticket to be available that lets someone use them?

No. There are cases where permitted routes do not have inter-available fares. London to Edinburgh, for example, via the West Coast.

What is the "."?

An alternative to Any Permitted is route 01000 which prints as a full stop. This is used because at the time of introduction some ticket issuing systems could not handle the field being empty.

 

[RJ]

Hmm.

I wonder if this would cause problems in journey planners if there was ever an express rail replacement service that didn't call in at Newport.

I suppose if so it could be fixed with a temporary easement.

There are plenty such buses this weekend and there doesn’t appear to be a problem with the fares not showing or passengers finding their way to them judging by the loadings!

 

[AdamWW]

No. There are cases where permitted routes do not have inter-available fares. London to Edinburgh, for example, via the West Coast.

Fascinating.

I live and learn.

So it's a permitted route, but you are only permitted to use it with Avanti?

An alternative to Any Permitted is route 01000 which prints as a full stop. This is used because at the time of introduction some ticket issuing systems could not handle the field being empty.

How does this show on tickets in the bit that would otherwise say
"Valid only via xxx"
or
"Valid via any permitted route"?

 

[JonathanH]

They are Advance fares. I expect the XC fares would require travel via Gloucester and possibly Cheltenham.

The XC fares between Cardiff and Bristol existed for the legacy services operated by CrossCountry over the direct route - eg the old 0700 from Cardiff that used to reverse at Bristol before going north.

 

[Haywain]

How does this show on tickets in the bit that would otherwise say
"Valid only via xxx"
or
"Valid via any permitted route"?

It either says nothing at all or just shows a dot which is, generally, barely visible.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are plenty such buses this weekend and there doesn’t appear to be a problem with the fares not showing or passengers finding their way to them judging by the loadings!

Possibly because there‘s a dated easement for this bustitution - it’s covered in the latest post in the ongoing “routeing guide updates” thread.

 

[Hadders]

I wonder if this would cause problems in journey planners if there was ever an express rail replacement service that didn't call in at Newport.

It would be valid as a direct train (or bus).

There are cases where permitted routes do not have inter-available fares. London to Edinburgh, for example, via the West Coast.

A scandalous situation created by Avanti kicking off about LNER's single leg pricing trial. The 'route Avanti' tickets introduced to allow travel from Edinburgh to London via the WCML should've been routed 'via Carlisle'.

 

[Paul Kelly]

It would be valid as a direct train (or bus).

Valid according to the routeing guide, yes, but would still fall foul of the route restriction on the fare.

 

[Haywain]

A scandalous situation created by Avanti kicking off about LNER's single leg pricing trial. The 'route Avanti' tickets introduced to allow travel from Edinburgh to London via the WCML should've been routed 'via Carlisle'.

I don't disagree but it was the easiest example to give. I am sure there will be plenty of others.

 

[AdamWW]

Valid according to the routeing guide, yes, but would still fall foul of the route restriction on the fare.

That was my assumption.

I have seen a similar issue where tickets for rail replacement buses were being sold by journey planners at a higher price than the train they replaced because although they followed the same route, by missing out a call they failed to quality for the route restriction.

This was quite a while ago. Perhaps we are more sophisticated with easements now.

I don't disagree but it was the easiest example to give. I am sure there will be plenty of others.

That does surprise me.

It seems strange to have have set up a the whole complexity of the routing guide to determine the validity of the "any permitted" tickets that replaced "any reasonable route" but then allow the withdrawal of some of these tickets in favour of operator specific ones.

Or is it the other way round and these are cases where the routing guide has subsequently been fiddled with for the benefit of one operator? Or other cases like the Avanti one where the justicifaction is questionable?

I'm intrigued by this.

 

[ExToC]

Sorry if someone has made the point already, but given there is only one obvious route, would “any permitted” imply there is more than one obvious route? And if so, logically contradict the routing guide, by making at least the next most likely route (via Gloucester) seem like it must be one of the “any”?

If you only have one choice, and then are offered an “any” its akin to to offering two shovels and asking someone to take their pick

 

[yorkie]

Since there's no other logical route, why even mention routes on the ticket?

Exactly; however the Rail Delivery Group and Department for Transport have a very different idea of what constitutes "simple" to what is actually simple.

Sorry if someone has made the point already, but given there is only one obvious route, would “any permitted” imply there is more than one obvious route?

No more so than specifying 'via Newport' could be taken to indicate an alternative Routeing option is available, in my opinion!

 

[Haywain]

It seems strange to have have set up a the whole complexity of the routing guide to determine the validity of the "any permitted" tickets that replaced "any reasonable route" but then allow the withdrawal of some of these tickets in favour of operator specific ones.

Or is it the other way round and these are cases where the routing guide has subsequently been fiddled with for the benefit of one operator? Or other cases like the Avanti one where the justicifaction is questionable?

I'm intrigued by this.

The Edinburgh example isn't ideal for this, as it's a botch that was badly done by Avanti when LNER introduced the first trial of single leg pricing. As others have suggested, the right thing to do would have been to have route via Carlisle instead.

There are other cases though where there are multiple permitted routes but no Any Permitted fare. London to Worcester is an excellent example with four different geographical route options.

 

[AdamWW]

Sorry if someone has made the point already, but given there is only one obvious route, would “any permitted” imply there is more than one obvious route? And if so, logically contradict the routing guide, by making at least the next most likely route (via Gloucester) seem like it must be one of the “any”?

If you only have one choice, and then are offered an “any” its akin to to offering two shovels and asking someone to take their pick

It might "logically" contradict the routing guide but I'm sure it doesn't actually contradict it. And there are many journeys (e.g. between branch line stations) that could only ever be done in one way yet have "any permitted" tickets.

I rather see it the other way. I expected to see "Any permitted" on the ticket. Seeing "via Newport" when there is no alternative makes me think there should be another (more expensive) ticket that allows a different route.

 

[yorkie]

The Edinburgh example isn't ideal for this, as it's a botch that was badly done by Avanti when LNER introduced the first trial of single leg pricing. As others have suggested, the right thing to do would have been to have route via Carlisle instead.

There are other cases though where there are multiple permitted routes but no Any Permitted fare. London to Worcester is an excellent example with four different geographical route options.

The highest priced route is deemed valid on the lower priced route (optionally a zero fare excess could be issued for the cheaper route) however booking systems cannot offer this.

And not all staff / passengers know this; I recall an incident where a Cross Country guard erroneously reported someone for prosecution for using a cheaper route specific ticket (the irony was the cheaper fare - routed via London - was actually valid for travel via the route taken - via Reading - albeit booking systems wouldn't validate it without a double back to Paddington!)

So it's a very unsatisfactory situation in my opinion.

 

[AdamWW]

The Edinburgh example isn't ideal for this, as it's a botch that was badly done by Avanti when LNER introduced the first trial of single leg pricing. As others have suggested, the right thing to do would have been to have route via Carlisle instead.

There are other cases though where there are multiple permitted routes but no Any Permitted fare. London to Worcester is an excellent example with four different geographical route options.

Ah. I may have put this badly in my later comments, but what I originally meant was that it should be possible to purchase an inter-available ticket for every route allowed in the routing guide, rather than one or more routes being only available with certain operators, or just one. This doesn't, of course, in itself, need an "any permitted" ticket to exist.

If the Avanti situation is permitted, it makes me wonder what else operators can get away with now.