Why are Great Northern and Thameslink separate brands?

[MikeWM]

It will be interesting to see what the GN fleet situation looks like in another 5 years. One wonders if the “GN” fleet will be entirely 387 + 379, with 700s working solely TL core services (with just a few outliers at the start and end of the day). It wouldn’t do any harm to deploy the surplus 700/0s on SN inner-suburban routes where there high capacity would be more valuable, especially as all SN’s metro routes are currently worked by 377s which aren’t exactly ideally suited.

Wouldn't have any complaints from me

Currently I'm significantly less likely to undertake discretionary Saturday leisure travel in a London direction (on the rare weekend we have through services to London, not a regular occurrence these last couple of years) because most of the Ely terminators are 'Thameslink' 700s, which make for a miserable and uncomfortable 75+ minutes journey. Fortunately I usually tend to miss the weekday diagrams.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Wouldn't have any complaints from me

Currently I'm significantly less likely to undertake discretionary Saturday leisure travel in a London direction (on the rare weekend we have through services to London, not a regular occurrence these last couple of years) because most of the Ely terminators are 'Thameslink' 700s, which make for a miserable and uncomfortable 75+ minutes journey. Fortunately I usually tend to miss the weekday diagrams.

Would be interesting if GA did their fast Cambridge to London service as planned before COVID

 

[swt_passenger]

The 2013 TSGN ITT is downloadable here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7c71fb40f0b62aff6c1b7a/invitation-to-tender.pdf

Theres’s a section 5.3.3 that includes this paragraph:

Bidders shall be aware of the following planning assumption for the successor franchise. The Department expects to discuss with the Franchisee the future size and scope of the TSGN franchise, including possible re-mapping options for the franchise a minimum of two years before the completion of the Franchise Term. Whilst the Department is keen that the Franchisee maximises the savings and efficiencies that should arise from combining two franchises, Bidders should avoid actions that would make any future splitting of the franchise prohibitively expensive to achieve.

So in 2013 DfT were keen on combination, but didn’t exclude the possibility of a decision to split dependent on decisions to be taken around 2018.

 

[jfowkes]

I am pleased that even though the initial premise of my question was wrong, it's generated plenty of discussion.

Also I feel quite stupid for not checking if the core was closed before posting.

 

[JonathanH]

Sundays haven't changed in the 5+ years since we got Saturday, so feels pretty permanent.

Sundays did change. The Horsham train now goes through to Bedford, as the base Sunday timetable previously had a Three Bridges to Bedford service running half hourly and a separate Horsham to London Bridge service.

Initially the Cambridge train ran to Gatwick instead of Brighton on Sundays, calling at Redhill, but the success of the through Cambridge services in the rest of the week led to them being sent to Brighton on Sundays.

It wouldn’t do any harm to deploy the surplus 700/0s on SN inner-suburban routes where there high capacity would be more valuable, especially as all SN’s metro routes are currently worked by 377s which aren’t exactly ideally suited.

Southern operating all their (electric) services with Electrostars has some obvious efficiencies.

 

[Horizon22]

Southern operating all their (electric) services with Electrostars has some obvious efficiencies.

Yes but Electrostars have always felt more like regional units to me, as opposed to pure metro, start-stop workhorses.

 

[bramling]

Yes but Electrostars have always felt more like regional units to me, as opposed to pure metro, start-stop workhorses.

It’s operational convenience, though it’s always been a curiosity that South Central inner suburban has never seemed to merit stock with a metro-style interior.

I was merely suggesting that the 8 or so 700/0 units used on GN services would be more suitably deployed on metro services. There is very little need for a class 700 style interior on the Cambridge stopping services, and none at all on the fast services out to Ely and Kings Lynn.

I do realise there are operational reasons why things are like they are, but if there ever comes a point where more capacity is needed on the SN metro routes then this is one way to provide it without increasing train lengths.

 

[Horizon22]

I was merely suggesting that the 8 or so 700/0 units used on GN services would be more suitably deployed on metro services. There is very little need for a class 700 style interior on the Cambridge stopping services, and none at all on the fast services out to Ely and Kings Lynn.

You could also argue they are not suited on Bedford - Brighton either but that ship has sailed!

 

[Magdalia]

I was merely suggesting that the 8 or so 700/0 units used on GN services would be more suitably deployed on metro services. There is very little need for a class 700 style interior on the Cambridge stopping services, and none at all on the fast services out to Ely and Kings Lynn.

The Cambridge-Kings Cross stopping trains are the Hertfordshire metro service. They serve 6 towns within 20 miles at Hatfield, Welwyn, Stevenage, Hitchin, Letchworth and Baldock. There is a lot of intermediate traffic between these towns, especially students going to/from Hatfield and Hitchin. Furthermore it has significant flows to and from both ends of the route, because of the amount of traffic that there now is to/from Cambridge. Taken together this means that lots of station stops involve significant amounts of both alighting and boarding, and this is where class 700s really score in terms of passenger convenience and reducing dwell times.

Looking ahead, the Ely-Royston section is also getting much more like a Cambridge metro, and this will be boosted further when Cambridge South opens next year.

I am pleased that even though the initial premise of my question was wrong, it's generated plenty of discussion.

Going back to the original branding question, in 50 years of experience of travelling between the Fens and London, only two operators have had a strong brand, Network SouthEast and First Capital Connect. But the Cambridge-Kings Cross route has also had two very successful brands, the Cambridge Buffet Express and the Cambridge Cruiser. The latter is still in common usage although it has had no official status for about 20 years.

The Cambridge-Brighton service is a relatively recent addition and is rightly part of the Thameslink brand, which has the core at its core! But the Great Northern brand is weak: next year's opening of Cambridge South would be an ideal time for a relaunch with 2 good route brand names that could be operated together. The rural Anglian branches have a long tradition of route branding operated together and is an example to learn from.