Why are there no buses in the evening except TfL services in the Home Counties?

[Richardr]

To be fair the subject line refers to the Home Counties (though the main message doesn't). I know there's talk that HS2 will move the London commuter area north, but to call Manchester the Home Counties is a bit extreme!

It says TfL services in the home counties - most buses outside London have zero TfL involvement.

Out of interest, where I live in St Albans, the last bus passing us is 23:50 - and is nothing to do with TfL.

 

[telstarbox]

Kent is perhaps unusual as most of the smaller towns have a rail link to their 'parent' town (e.g. Deal to Dover, Higham to Rochester, Paddock Wood to Tonbridge). Tonight you could go out in Rochester until 23.30 and get a train back to most places on the North Kent.

There are some interurban evening routes such as the Triangle above and the 101 Maidstone to Medway - in both cases these corridors aren't served by rail.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I can't see Leatherhead to Cobham having much demand in the evening at all. Most people travelling in the evenings from either town would be heading up to London or elsewhere on the train, especially Fri/Sat. Between the two there is definitely a daytime market, but once people have returned from work, seen family etc. I can't really think of many reasons people would travel between the two in reasonable numbers in the evening, or enough to justify an service.
This isn't the case everywhere though. The KITE from Aldershot to Guildford for example last departs Aldershot at 22:55 and last departs Guildford at 23:35.

Even Epsom to Leatherhead the last bus is before 19.00... heading towards Leatherhead it's 18.35 ( 18.15 on Saturdays ) and heading from Leatherhead it's 18.09 ( 18.21 on Saturdays ).

On Sundays there's only six buses each way all day.

 

[Dai Corner]

Kent is perhaps unusual as most of the smaller towns have a rail link to their 'parent' town (e.g. Deal to Dover, Higham to Rochester, Paddock Wood to Tonbridge). Tonight you could go out in Rochester until 23.30 and get a train back to most places on the North Kent.

There are some interurban evening routes such as the Triangle above and the 101 Maidstone to Medway - in both cases these corridors aren't served by rail.

Has the Madstone West to Strood service been withdrawn?

 

[duncombec]

I vaguely recall the OP's astonishment when first looking to travel, or travelling here before, and it has clearly been compounded by the rail strike. Obviously the premise of the thread is (not unusually) rather hyperbolic, as there clearly are evening buses - a quick look at bustimes would confirm that, but naturally not to TfL levels of (wasteful?) service.

It's often, but not always, telling to check the daytime service. For the section the OP desired, Cobham - Leatherhead, the usual provision is a bus every two hours, mostly off-peak, with some extra journeys on Saturdays. That simply isn't going to have an evening service any more frequent than every two hours, if at all. Not an area I know well, but isn't describing Letherhead to Cobham as "interurban" somewhat questionable?

Has the Madstone West to Strood service been withdrawn?

Maidstone to Strood and Maidstone to Chatham/Gillingham are different corridors. It's a good 15 minute bus ride or change time+train between Strood and Chatham, and why go to hassle of that when you can be in Chatham direct in less time?

 

[paddy1]

Try finding an evening (or Sunday) bus service in Cheshire. They are few and far between, but I suppose Cheshire is really part of West Mercia, where such services are also rare, not the north of England. There are a large number of evening services in Greater Manchester that are barely used but heavily subsidised by TfGM at council taxpayers' expense.

Strangely enough, there are late night buses that connect Crewe, Sandbach, Congleton and Macclesfield hourly up until 2335 hrs each way on Monday to Saturday, this being the 38 Arriva service. Can't really figure out why there would be a demand between these late at night but not other towns in Cheshire. ? It's not as if any of them have a thriving night time economy. There are, however, no Sunday services at all connecting these towns.

 

[A0wen]

If we take my area around Hertfordshire, the answer I suspect is quite simple. Most people simply don’t want to use buses, and have access to superior alternatives, which in most cases will be their car. So the only viable bus services will be those in or serving larger towns, and even then only a basic service.

If you take Hertfordshire, there are buses on the key corridors in to the evening - up to circa 11pm

So going West to East:

500 Hemel - Aylesbury runs hourly into the evenings.
321 Watford - Luton runs hourly into the evenings.
301 St Albans - Stevenage runs hourly into the evenings
302 St Albans - Hemel runs hourly into the evenings
101 Luton - Stevenage have departures from Luton at 20.40 and 22.40 and Stevenage at 19.45 and 21.45
724 Harlow - Heathrow - last journey from Harlow at 20.30 going through Herts after 9pm - there are also departures from Harlow at 01.10, 03.00, 03.45 and 04.30
510 Harlow - Bishops Stortford - Stansted runs hourly in the evenings.

Most Stevenage town services run hourly up to 11pm.

And in the rural areas, it's just been announced that the DRT service HertsLynx will be running late on Friday and Saturday nights.

You also have rail services linking the following:

Rickmansworth - Watford (Met)
Watford - Hemel - Berkhamsted (LNW)
Borehamwood - Radlett - St Albans - Harpenden (Thameslink)
Potters Bar - Hatfield - Welwyn Gdn City - Knebworth - Stevenage - Hitchin - Letchworth - Baldock - Royston (Thameslink / GN)
Cuffley - Hertford - Stevenage (Thameslink / GN)
Bishops Stortford - Sawbridgeworth - Harlow (GA)
Hertford - Ware - Broxbourne - Cheshunt (GA).

It's a pretty good service across train and bus into the evening unless you happen to be the OP who has some particularly obscure and specific need which no reasonable public transport system can meet.

 

[Gloster]

Having been brought up in that area, I would doubt that many people would use a Cobham-Leatherhead service. There aren’t many houses outside of the two towns and I doubt if there is a particularly large commerce between the two. It is also very well-heeled and there can’t be many houses where there isn’t a car, or usually several. Of course, they might get caught when the chauffeur is having his monthly half-day off, but then they will bite the bullet and drive themselves or order a taxi: they wouldn’t be seen dead on a bus (although it does serve the crematorium). The servants who use the bus will just have to put up with it.

 

[paddy1]

Stoke-on-Trent/Newcastle-Under-Lyme with a combined continuous urban population of around 400,00 people is virtually devoid of local buses after about 7pm. The only one I am aware of that runs until about 11pm is the route 25 that connects Hanley (Stoke city centre) with Newcastle and Keele University. Very poor for a 'city/urban area of that size compared with the likes of Nottingham, Leicester etc. Stoke-on-Trent city centre night life is abysmal and the City Council don't subsidise the buses, unlike in other comparable sized cities, which may explain it.

 

[sk688]

Out of interest, where I live in St Albans, the last bus passing us is 23:50 - and is nothing to do with TfL.

St Albans does have the 724 which defacto runs through the night, but I get it's a very limited provision

 

[James H]

miklcct is right that there is a cliff-edge of provision at the Greater London boundary.

Take places like Chalfont St Peter, just a few miles outside Greater London - no buses after about 7pm, and nothing at all on a Sunday.

 

[RT4038]

miklcct is right that there is a cliff-edge of provision at the Greater London boundary.

Take places like Chalfont St Peter, just a few miles outside Greater London - no buses after about 7pm, and nothing at all on a Sunday.

Chalfont St Peter and surrounds is comparable in demographic and density to what part of Greater London........?

 

[James H]

It's not that different to leafy parts of Greater London which by virtue of being on the other side of the boundary have a vastly better bus service.

 

[Starmill]

miklcct is right that there is a cliff-edge of provision at the Greater London boundary.

Well of course there's a cliff-edge to provision. In London, there's a vast public subsidy in place to support the bus service across every district. Buckinghamshire by contrast have very few resources and are able to spend a comparatively tiny amount on buses. It would be more unusual if there weren't a cliff edge, in the daytime provision as well as evenings and weekends.

The original post suggested there was simply no service anywhere in England after 1900, otherwise than the TfL buses. That overall is absolutely not the case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

miklcct is right that there is a cliff-edge of provision at the Greater London boundary.

Take places like Chalfont St Peter, just a few miles outside Greater London - no buses after about 7pm, and nothing at all on a Sunday.

The Chalfonts are, to be fair, about the richest and most expensive part of the country. One chooses between one's Range Rover and one's Jag, or one takes a premium taxi service if intending to drink. Public transport is the train, and it exists solely for going to London, and one drives to the station.

That's a hard attitude to break.

Chalfont St Peter and surrounds is comparable in demographic and density to what part of Greater London........?

To be fair possibly places like suburban Richmond. London does have some very rich and low density places within its boundaries.

 

[RT4038]

It's not that different to leafy parts of Greater London which by virtue of being on the other side of the boundary have a vastly better bus service.

It doesn't make much difference whether Chalfont St. Peter is a few miles or one hundred miles from Greater London; it is not covered by TfL and not being funded for a traffic congested, densely populated City. Exactly the same can be found around the West Midlands.

To be fair possibly places like suburban Richmond. London does have some very rich and low density places within its boundaries.

Yes, but Chalfont St. Peter is surrounded by green fields and other very affluent settlements, all of whom have little propensity to travel by bus since the 1950s. If Chalfont St. Peter was surrounded like Richmond is (and had the same sort of commercial centre), I expect it would have a better bus service travelling through it. Richmond and Chalfont St. Peter are not really comparable - Chalfont St. Peter and Tanworth in Arden or Lapworth maybe, and there is not a lot of bus service in them!

 

[bramling]

If you take Hertfordshire, there are buses on the key corridors in to the evening - up to circa 11pm

So going West to East:

500 Hemel - Aylesbury runs hourly into the evenings.
321 Watford - Luton runs hourly into the evenings.
301 St Albans - Stevenage runs hourly into the evenings
302 St Albans - Hemel runs hourly into the evenings
101 Luton - Stevenage have departures from Luton at 20.40 and 22.40 and Stevenage at 19.45 and 21.45
724 Harlow - Heathrow - last journey from Harlow at 20.30 going through Herts after 9pm - there are also departures from Harlow at 01.10, 03.00, 03.45 and 04.30
510 Harlow - Bishops Stortford - Stansted runs hourly in the evenings.

Most Stevenage town services run hourly up to 11pm.

With the exception of the latter, I wouldn’t say a handful of hourly services is great provision. Indeed it shows how little demand there is. When one does see buses round here in the evening, there’s invariable only a couple of people on them.

This would contrast sharply with somewhere like Barnet, just into the border with London, where the section leading up to Barnet church can resemble a bus rally even very late at night.

 

[A0wen]

The Chalfonts are, to be fair, about the richest and most expensive part of the country. One chooses between one's Range Rover and one's Jag, or one takes a premium taxi service if intending to drink. Public transport is the train, and it exists solely for going to London, and one drives to the station.

If you look at a map, you'll see Chalfont St Peter is less than 2 miles from Gerrard's Cross railway station. So a taxi from Gerrards Cross isn't going to be expensive.

To put that in context, it's closer than Hemel estates like Adeyfield or Leverstock Green are to Hemel Hempstead station. Using it as an example, because of the relative proximity.

 

[Starmill]

The Chalfonts are, to be fair, about the richest and most expensive part of the country. One chooses between one's Range Rover and one's Jag, or one takes a premium taxi service if intending to drink. Public transport is the train, and it exists solely for going to London, and one drives to the station.

That's a hard attitude to break.

Or even one's chauffeur service. Very unlikely that anyone with such means will want to use a typical English bus service, even if the bus were free to them. The premium taxi and part-time chauffeur market is of course very, very expensive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you look at a map, you'll see Chalfont St Peter is less than 2 miles from Gerrard's Cross railway station. So a taxi from Gerrards Cross isn't going to be expensive.

I've walked it (between Chalfont Heights Scout Camp and the station) quite a few times. It's indeed not far, though like much of South Bucks it is VERY hilly. But my point was about the prevailing attitudes in that sort of place (lovely though it is) and why buses won't do well.

 

[Trainlog]

Kent is perhaps unusual as most of the smaller towns have a rail link to their 'parent' town (e.g. Deal to Dover, Higham to Rochester, Paddock Wood to Tonbridge). Tonight you could go out in Rochester until 23.30 and get a train back to most places on the North Kent.

There are some interurban evening routes such as the Triangle above and the 101 Maidstone to Medway - in both cases these corridors aren't served by rail.

Agreed on that part as you are not left waiting long on that mainline either for a service which is great.

Yeah the 101 is run late into the evening but they will try and thin the service out to half hourly or sometimes hourly even though its against it's advertised promise of 15mins. However despite the late running of the 101, Arriva has made some cut backs in recent times to its night services with some wrapping up before 7pm compared to 10pm prior to October which its fustrating as if you are coming back late on the train you and last bus has long gone you are at the mercy of cab rates.

 

[A0wen]

Even Epsom to Leatherhead the last bus is before 19.00... heading towards Leatherhead it's 18.35 ( 18.15 on Saturdays ) and heading from Leatherhead it's 18.09 ( 18.21 on Saturdays ).

On Sundays there's only six buses each way all day.

There is, however, a railway line linking the two with 3tph up to midnight and a similar frequency on Sundays, so it's not like they are cut off from each other.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

There are evening buses in towns and cities, but interurban buses will tend to stop because there is no viable market.

Stagecoach West Gold S6 (Oxford - Swindon) would like to disagree with you here.

The last bus from Swindon is at 22:35 (short to Faringdon) and 22:05 (full run to Oxford). Likewise from Oxford, last bus to Swindon is at 23:40. And this is Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday evenings we're talking about (Sunday evenings are the same but the last buses depart 30 minutes earlier, i.e. 21:35 Swindon - Oxford and 23:10 Oxford - Swindon). Friday and Saturday nights it gets even better, making the S6 almost a 24h service. Last bus from Swindon to Oxford is at 01:35, and Oxford to Swindon 03:10. Oh and on Monday to Fridays, the buses start at around 04:30 out of Swindon and 06:00 out of Oxford.

And Oxford has city bus routes like the 1/5 and the 8 which run until 3am (although after midnight, only Stagecoach runs them, and the 1/5 gets renumbered the N1, and the 8 gets renumbered the N8).

724 Harlow - Heathrow - last journey from Harlow at 20.30 going through Herts after 9pm - there are also departures from Harlow at 01.10, 03.00, 03.45 and 04.30

I thought the 724 was kind of a 24/7 bus service? I might be wrong though!

 

[A0wen]

I thought the 724 was kind of a 24/7 bus service? I might be wrong though!

Not quite - there's a gap of 5 hours heading eastwards from Harlow.

 

[Martin2013]

Not sure if this counts but have noticed that some areas of Hampshire such as Hook and Fleet which have good rail links to London seem to lack an evening or Sunday service. There seems to be other local routes in Basingstoke which do run in evenings and on a Sunday and I'm pretty sure Camberley which has a station also has services running in the evenings and on Sundays.

 

[JonathanH]

Stagecoach West Gold S6 (Oxford - Swindon) would like to disagree with you here.

Indeed, it is great that there are isolated exceptions. The late evening buses out of Oxford are notable in running later than many elsewhere.

 

[Magdalia]

In Cambridge and surrounding area most routes have evening services.

The only time that this criticism applies in Cambridge is on some of the village routes on Sundays.

 

[Busaholic]

Speaking from Slough perspective - it is probably highly unprofitable, and there are no services due to lack of funding from local council. Evening and Sunday journeys on some routes have often ''operated with support from xxx council'' written at the bottom of the timetable - other ones operating during nights are the ones funded by Heathrow Airport, for the benefit of their employees.

As a little trivia - when I was studying in Wycombe, about 10 years ago, last two evening journeys on Arriva's 74 were funded by Bucks Cohnty Council and drivers didn't even bothered checking or selling tickets, they just let you go for free

Slough Borough Council has been under the control of government-appointed commissionners since 2021, though both have just left. A bankrupt authority wouldn't get too many friends by allocating cash to providing evening bus services as a social service in those circumstances.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Despite many Islanders not realising it, the Isle of Wight probably has the best non-Metropolitan bus service in the country.

I think it’s an island life thing. Our last buses are 11pm during the week and 1215am on a Friday and Saturday, going to 0115 at Christmas and weekends in the summer. The trunk routes are every 20-30 minutes daytime.

The places I go in the counties are generally the commuter towns just outside Greater London boundary

Hemel Hempstead has buses until about 11pm, including the town buses. Mostly hourly but still a good enough service.

 

[miklcct]

miklcct is right that there is a cliff-edge of provision at the Greater London boundary.

Take places like Chalfont St Peter, just a few miles outside Greater London - no buses after about 7pm, and nothing at all on a Sunday.

It's not that different to leafy parts of Greater London which by virtue of being on the other side of the boundary have a vastly better bus service.

The Chalfonts are, to be fair, about the richest and most expensive part of the country. One chooses between one's Range Rover and one's Jag, or one takes a premium taxi service if intending to drink. Public transport is the train, and it exists solely for going to London, and one drives to the station.

That's a hard attitude to break.



To be fair possibly places like suburban Richmond. London does have some very rich and low density places within its boundaries.

So given two places with the same density, one rich and one poor, will the demand for buses be different between them?

If you take Hertfordshire, there are buses on the key corridors in to the evening - up to circa 11pm

So going West to East:

500 Hemel - Aylesbury runs hourly into the evenings.
321 Watford - Luton runs hourly into the evenings.
301 St Albans - Stevenage runs hourly into the evenings
302 St Albans - Hemel runs hourly into the evenings
101 Luton - Stevenage have departures from Luton at 20.40 and 22.40 and Stevenage at 19.45 and 21.45
724 Harlow - Heathrow - last journey from Harlow at 20.30 going through Herts after 9pm - there are also departures from Harlow at 01.10, 03.00, 03.45 and 04.30
510 Harlow - Bishops Stortford - Stansted runs hourly in the evenings.

Most Stevenage town services run hourly up to 11pm.

And in the rural areas, it's just been announced that the DRT service HertsLynx will be running late on Friday and Saturday nights.

You also have rail services linking the following:

Rickmansworth - Watford (Met)
Watford - Hemel - Berkhamsted (LNW)
Borehamwood - Radlett - St Albans - Harpenden (Thameslink)
Potters Bar - Hatfield - Welwyn Gdn City - Knebworth - Stevenage - Hitchin - Letchworth - Baldock - Royston (Thameslink / GN)
Cuffley - Hertford - Stevenage (Thameslink / GN)
Bishops Stortford - Sawbridgeworth - Harlow (GA)
Hertford - Ware - Broxbourne - Cheshunt (GA).

It's a pretty good service across train and bus into the evening unless you happen to be the OP who has some particularly obscure and specific need which no reasonable public transport system can meet.

Why don't I see similar orbital services operating into the evening in Surrey, except those TfL services?

For example, Weybridge - Cobham C1 C2, no evening and Sunday service
Oxshott - Epsom, no direct bus at all, and the indirect 408 doesn't have evening and weekend service
Banstead - Reigate 420 no evening service
and the key links like Epsom - Banstead, Epsom - Chessington - Subiton, Leatherhead - Surbiton are all run by TfL.