Why are trains leaving London in the morning not off peak?

[williamn]

I had to make an early morning trip from London to Lewes this morning. The peak fare cost me around £15 more than I’d usually pay with a Network card and the trains were pretty empty.

Given the demand in the morning is towards London, not leaving it, and given that trains into London in the afternoon peak are classed as off peak, why is the same not true in the morning?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I had to make an early morning trip from London to Lewes this morning. The peak fare cost me around £15 more than I’d usually pay with a Network card and the trains were pretty empty.

Given the demand in the morning is towards London, not leaving it

Not universally. London to Reading, for example, is pretty busy in the morning - much more so than when I commuted that way 25 years ago and was usually the only passenger in coach A of the 0800 from Paddington.

 

[JonathanH]

Fares for journeys from London to destinations in the South East beyond a certain distance are often at lower prices in the morning peak than they are for journeys in the London direction.

On some longer distance routes, the advance fares are cheaper from London in the morning peak than they are priced into London.

Thereby not explicitly off peak, but the fact that it is contra flow is recognised by lower prices.

 

[williamn]

Yes if I want to get a train to Scotland very early it’s often the cheapest of the day. But for journeys within the South East there are usually no advance fares and it just seems like it’s suppressing demand and the trains leaving London are often just carrying air around!

 

[JonathanH]

But for journeys within the South East there are usually no advance fares and it just seems like it’s suppressing demand and the trains leaving London are often just carrying air around!

Is there any evidence they would carry more passengers if the fares were cheaper? Up to a certain distance there is a commuting flow which the railway doesn't want to cannibalise.

An anytime day return from Waterloo to Southampton is £54.80. The off peak day return is £53.10.

 

[Hadders]

It's a good question and jyears ago the return portion of what we now call Off Peak Returns was unrestricted. There is some differential pricing of Anytime tickets, for example London to Cambridge is cheaper than Cambridget to London.

Generally speaking these days the way seems to be that the train companies will extract as much money as they can from passengers.

 

[Haywain]

Is there any evidence they would carry more passengers if the fares were cheaper? Up to a certain distance there is a commuting flow which the railway doesn't want to cannibalise.

An anytime day return from Waterloo to Southampton is £54.80. The off peak day return is £53.10.

Meanwhile from Paddington to Oxford the fares are £77.30 and £31.80. So, the minimal difference only works on certain routes. And it should be mentioned that for a lot of railcard holders there is only a discount on the lower fare which exacerbates the difference - for a Senior Railcard holder that's pretty much four times the price to travel at peak time.

 

[matt_world2004]

I think watford DC line services are charged off peak on oyster when leaving london

 

[JonathanH]

One other aspect of this is whether there actually is a lot of spare capacity. There certainly is once the high peak trains have reached London by about 8am, but earlier, with rolling stock concentrated on the flow towards London, the earlier trains can be short and sometimes overcrowded.

 

[PeterC]

I think watford DC line services are charged off peak on oyster when leaving london

I haven't had reason to check since covid but this was certainly the case for zones 7 8 and 9 on the Met but only to or from zone 1 and only with Oyster or contactless.

During the evening peak it was, and presumably still is, cheaper to go from Chalfont to Camden Town via zone 1 than to get off at Finchley Road or Swiss Cottage and use my pass on the bus

 

[williamn]

Is there any evidence they would carry more passengers if the fares were cheaper? Up to a certain distance there is a commuting flow which the railway doesn't want to cannibalise.

An anytime day return from Waterloo to Southampton is £54.80. The off peak day return is £53.10.

Operators successfully used demand based pricing at other times of day to increase trade so I don't see why this wouldn't be the case here. There is very little commuting flow out of London generally, with exceptions like Reading as mentioned above.

One other aspect of this is whether there actually is a lot of spare capacity. There certainly is once the high peak trains have reached London by about 8am, but earlier, with rolling stock concentrated on the flow towards London, the earlier trains can be short and sometimes overcrowded.

This is about trains out of London though - all that rolling stock concentrated on the flow into London generally has to return and seems to be doing so largely empty.

 

[JonathanH]

This is about trains out of London though - all that rolling stock concentrated on the flow into London generally has to return and seems to be doing so largely empty.

Yes, but my point is that from start of service to 0800, there often isn't a lot of spare capacity going out from London, although it differs by route, from 0800 to 0930 there admittedly is.

 

[matt_world2004]

I haven't had reason to check since covid but this was certainly the case for zones 7 8 and 9 on the Met but only to or from zone 1 and only with Oyster or contactless.

During the evening peak it was, and presumably still is, cheaper to go from Chalfont to Camden Town via zone 1 than to get off at Finchley Road or Swiss Cottage and use my pass on the bus

It's £3.50 leaving national rail London Euston to go to Harrow and Wealdstone in the morning yet from Paddington Underground /Euston Underground its £5.10 a bit of an anomaly

 

[30907]

Fares for journeys from London to destinations in the South East beyond a certain distance are often at lower prices in the morning peak than they are for journeys in the London direction.

On some longer distance routes, the advance fares are cheaper from London in the morning peak than they are priced into London.

Thereby not explicitly off peak, but the fact that it is contra flow is recognised by lower prices.

Indeed, and if you go back 40 years, there was only one fare - an unrestricted Day Return, rather than two fares priced almost identically (applies on the ex SR).

 

[JonathanH]

And it should be mentioned that for a lot of railcard holders there is only a discount on the lower fare which exacerbates the difference - for a Senior Railcard holder that's pretty much four times the price to travel at peak time.

How many Senior Railcard holders live in the centre of London and are itching to go for a day out to Oxford at 7am, rather than waiting until off-peak tickets are valid?

Would allowing for cheaper fares make up for the lost revenue at today's prices?

The off peak ticket is valid on the 0923, which is a 9-coach train, and later services. With the exception of the 0505 and 0822, the earlier trains only have 5 coaches.

 

[jfollows]

Manchester Metrolink used to be the same, probably still is, I used to live in Manchester but worked in Sale, normally I would drive to work at 8am because I was charged peak rate for empty trams otherwise, I would only use the tram if I went to work after 9:30 when the fares came down.

 

[williamn]

Yes, but my point is that from start of service to 0800, there often isn't a lot of spare capacity going out from London, although it differs by route, from 0800 to 0930 there admittedly is.

Yes it differs by route - Thameslink trains are the same length all day and my Southern train this morning was the maximum 12 coaches, both were mostly empty.

 

[Deerfold]

A friend used to work in Ipswich, staying in London. He often the only one in his carriage out of Liverpool Street, but he did buy many, many £5 advances to do the journey.

 

[yorkie]

I had to make an early morning trip from London to Lewes this morning. The peak fare cost me around £15 more than I’d usually pay with a Network card and the trains were pretty empty.

Given the demand in the morning is towards London, not leaving it, and given that trains into London in the afternoon peak are classed as off peak, why is the same not true in the morning?

It's market based pricing; if some people are willing to pay for Anytime rates at those times, then some TOCs would rather have a few people paying a lot of money than have a higher number of passengers paying a lower rate. It's not really run as a public service.

Don't forget, the forum's site will try to find a way round it.

 

[Haywain]

How many Senior Railcard holders live in the centre of London and are itching to go for a day out to Oxford at 7am, rather than waiting until off-peak tickets are valid?

Probably a similar number as live in Northern cities and want to travel similar distances at similar times. The point is that the penalty for wanting an early start is especially severe.

 

[Deerfold]

The price differences aren't as extreme, but occur coming out of other major cities, too. I reasonably regularly travel into Leeds or Bradford for gigs and it's nice to get something to eat first. But if I get a train before 1830 I'm paying peak fare to get there which is particularly annoying when you've a carriage to yourself.

 

[northwichcat]

I would imagine by default morning trains are peak trains and operators can ease restrictions if they think it would be benefical.

The price differences aren't as extreme, but occur coming out of other major cities, too. I reasonably regularly travel into Leeds or Bradford for gigs and it's nice to get something to eat first. But if I get a train before 1830 I'm paying peak fare to get there which is particularly annoying when you've a carriage to yourself.

On the Mid Cheshire line the evening peak services going towards Manchester can be as busy as the ones going away, especially on a Friday. I suppose if every busy service was peak and every quiet service was off-peak there would be some very unusual peak restrictions. You might even have an afternoon peak that ends at 5pm in one direction on some lines.

 

[Deerfold]

I would imagine by default morning trains are peak trains and operators can ease restrictions if they think it would be benefical.


On the Mid Cheshire line the evening peak services going towards Manchester can be as busy as the ones going away, especially on a Friday. I suppose if every busy service was peak and every quiet service was off-peak there would be some very unusual peak restrictions. You might even have an afternoon peak that ends at 5pm in one direction on some lines.

Indeed, but on my line the flows are definitely into Leeds in the morning, returning in the evening. It wouldn't be so bad if the afternoon restrictions were historic but they were added a few years ago - on lines like Leeds-Sheffield and Leeds-Manchester it probably makes sense for them to apply in both directions, but on commuter lines with just one big city at one end, not so much.

 

[30907]

Indeed, but on my line the flows are definitely into Leeds in the morning, returning in the evening. It wouldn't be so bad if the afternoon restrictions were historic but they were added a few years ago - on lines like Leeds-Sheffield and Leeds-Manchester it probably makes sense for them to apply in both directions, but on commuter lines with just one big city at one end, not so much.

West Yorkshire is polycentric, to put it mildly, and there are commuter flows in the wrong direction as well (on my line, Saltaire, Keighley and Skipton come immediately to mind. Yes, they are proportionately smaller, but they exist, hence the blanket restriction.
Incidentally, the same comment applies to the London suburbs - where the restrictions applied both ways and for the same reason (and incidentally the difference between peak and Offpeak return fares was much more substantial than around Leeds).

 

[Deerfold]

West Yorkshire is polycentric, to put it mildly, and there are commuter flows in the wrong direction as well (on my line, Saltaire, Keighley and Skipton come immediately to mind. Yes, they are proportionately smaller, but they exist, hence the blanket restriction.
Incidentally, the same comment applies to the London suburbs - where the restrictions applied both ways and for the same reason (and incidentally the difference between peak and Offpeak return fares was much more substantial than around Leeds).

They're much, much smaller, in my experience - that's the same line.

I did mention that the difference in fares was much smaller - but what is annoying is that tickets such as the Day Saver (formerly Day Rover) aren't valid either. Until recently there was no peak equivalent to this. Now there is, a Zone 1-5 peak ticket is 50% more expensive than off-peak and is only available in an adult version.

 

[thedbdiboy]

It's market based pricing; if some people are willing to pay for Anytime rates at those times, then some TOCs would rather have a few people paying a lot of money than have a higher number of passengers paying a lower rate. It's not really run as a public service.

Don't forget, the forum's site will try to find a way round it.

Not quite true, in theory it should be based on elasticities. It was Network SouthEast that moved away from treating AM services out of London as off-peak because the view was that for most journeys it didn't matter how cheap the fare was, there was little prospect of attracting lots of extra people to travel from, say, London to Lewes on a work/school day at 7am so they might as well charge a peak fare for those that needed to travel.
Of course these days the crude effects of TOC pricing coupled with regulation that doesn't really focus on market or social needs means that there are all sorts of prices that don't make sense but the basic rationale is still there.