Why aren't West Midlands Trains (aka London Northwestern Railway) running ANY services on Sunday 4th February 2024?

[Sleepy]

Not without a fight, I would imagine...unless the ticket was purchased prior to the industrial action being announced (i.e. before 16th January.)

Can't see anyone checking on board given reduced LNER services due to engineering work being very busy, doubt they'll alter ticket gates for 1 day (if they can be altered for route restrictions)

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

I very much doubt that would be acceptable at most depots to ASLEF. We only allow part time through job share where the two drivers operate as one and must never be seen together in public

Without wishing to cause offence, why would ASLEF have an issue with this if those part time drivers were fully competent to the same standards as full time drivers?

The coach industry for a long time used a lot of part time drivers to cover things like the school peak, and there was never any issues there, as the full timers knew that the part timers could always help out if they needed time off for dentists/doctors/haircuts/school plays, or the myriad of other things that get thrown at you during the year.

 

[dk1]

Without wishing to cause offence, why would ASLEF have an issue with this if those part time drivers were fully competent to the same standards as full time drivers?

The coach industry for a long time used a lot of part time drivers to cover things like the school peak, and there was never any issues there, as the full timers knew that the part timers could always help out if they needed time off for dentists/doctors/haircuts/school plays, or the myriad of other things that get thrown at you during the year.

It’s all down to local union agreements and everything being fair to the full time union membership. I suppose it would allow the operators to get away with so much & where would it end? You may even God forbid have them trying to impose split shifts too.

 

[LAX54]

It’s all down to local union agreements and everything being fair to the full time union membership. I suppose it would allow the operators to get away with so much & where would it end? You may even God forbid have them trying to impose split shifts too.

and of course a vast difference driving a bus on local roads, and driving a train to wherever, with route knowledge, traction knowledge, competence/rules/appendix etc.

 

[dk1]

and of course a vast difference driving a bus on local roads, and driving a train to wherever, with route knowledge, traction knowledge, competence/rules/appendix etc.

Of course. Not sure why we get compared with everything from that to working for the NHS.

 

[dangie]

Yet virtually every industry that provides a seven day a week service relies heavily on overtime.

Are you saying essential services rely on overtime to provide a service? Of course overtime is often required to cover holidays and sickness, but any industry which provides a 7day service should have staff rotas to cover that service. Overtime working is to cover staff absence.

 

[GordonT]

In the hymn of praise from unions for doing away with overtime you seldom hear of the significant numbers of their members who historically have craved as much overtime as they can work and have factored it into their lifestyle/earnings.
Not all employees regard overtime in preference to hiring more staff as the devil's work I would suggest.

 

[father_jack]

Looks like Cross Country have binned off en-masse the entire morning service on Saturday from Worcestershire Parkway to Birmingham at very very short notice as well.

Stop orders in the voyagers, been that way all week really. See "other train updates" here https://www.journeycheck.com/crosscountry/.

That’s no surprise. They axe the Western half of the Cardiff Nottingham route at every chance they get.

Never let the truth get in the way of an ill informed rant.

Was nice of them to do it late at night the day before - after the time I could have made alternative arrangements to get to Birmingham this evening instead.

Looks like it’s now down to First Bus to get me where I need to be tomorrow instead - for a fraction of the cost and a guaranteed seat!

They've been withdrawing the services from the timetable the night before all week, it's called "P-coding" described here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...etwork-code-changes-reporting-process.242233/

It gets them out of paying delay repay money and massages the statistics that the "withdrawn" trains aren't "cancellations"..............

 

[Ashfordian6]

Take your pick:

• Forgetfulness
• Incompetence
• Attempt to avoid the evening news bulletins

TBH I've no idea why

Much more likely they are manipulating the situation for public support to allow them to blame the strike rather than being open, honest and fair with the passenger paying public.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

Fun and Games at Banbury this morning as a result of this.
0955 XC to Bournemouth turned up as a 4 car and was completely full and standing. Literally no Banbury Pax managed to get on. Same story for previous Service as well I was hearing.
 obvs everyone for London trying to use XC to Reading for Paddington (even worse at BAN due to Chiltern Closure beyond Bicester)

 

[185]

Why do you say “who have discovered the cost of doing so this is horrific” almost as if TFW regret doing it ?

Heard from an AM that the cost has been truly phenomenal ... but, he also said will be probably worth it in the long run.

 

[northwichcat]

An additional observation:

For yesterday:

Birmingham - Hereford (via Worcester)
The following services will not operate:
22:59 Hereford to Worcester Shrub Hill (please note: this is the last service of the day)
Birmingham - Shrewsbury
The following services will not operate:
22:56 Birmingham New Street to Shrewsbury (please note: this is the last service of the day)

Birmingham – Rugeley
The following service will not operate:
23:22 Birmingham New Street to Rugeley (please note: this is the last service of the day)

Industrial Action

ASLEF, the trade union representing train drivers, has announced strike action on Friday 5th April, and an overtime ban between Thursday 4th to Saturday 6th April and between Monday 8th to Tuesday 9th April. There will be no West Midlands Railway services on Friday 5th April. Please see below...

www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk

As staff aren't obliged to work overtime and are exercising that right, aren't WMT obliged to provide rail replacement buses for cancelled last trains and if they are unable to provide trains on Sundays? I doubt the government will do anything if they don't though, given they've allowed Northern to suspend services on 24 Dec and 31 Dec without providing rail replacement buses.

 

[Efini92]

Without wishing to cause offence, why would ASLEF have an issue with this if those part time drivers were fully competent to the same standards as full time drivers?

The coach industry for a long time used a lot of part time drivers to cover things like the school peak, and there was never any issues there, as the full timers knew that the part timers could always help out if they needed time off for dentists/doctors/haircuts/school plays, or the myriad of other things that get thrown at you during the year.

It’s not just aslef that would have an issue with it. As @43066 said up thread, companies aren’t going to spend money on two people to the job of one driver.

You can’t compare coach drivers to train drivers as the standards that govern competency are very different.
Train drivers go through a continuous cycle of assessment and verification of their competence, Coach drivers don’t.

 

[43066]

I very much doubt that would be acceptable at most depots to ASLEF. We only allow part time through job share where the two drivers operate as one and must never be seen together in public

I think C2C recruited some a few years ago (from memory it was to cover weekday peaks, rather than Sundays), but it isn’t widespread for the reasons noted above; mainly cost. It’s impossible to imagine the DfT sanctioning it currently.

Are you saying essential services rely on overtime to provide a service? Of course overtime is often required to cover holidays and sickness, but any industry which provides a 7day service should have staff rotas to cover that service. Overtime working is to cover staff absence.

You’d be surprised how much various parts of the NHS, for example (the usual comparison!) are heavily reliant on overtime to deliver their service - whether they should be or not is another question. Overtime has certainly always been a “thing” on the railway, albeit the stance of the unions is to want full employment and no reliance on overtime.

 

[northwichcat]

You can’t compare coach drivers to train drivers as the standards that govern competency are very different.
Train drivers go through a continuous cycle of assessment and verification of their competence, Coach drivers don’t.

Plus, small operators don't train bus and coach drivers. If you want a job with them you need to be already qualified.

A lot of smaller coach hire companies employ semi-retired in their 60s, who have retired from full time driving but like the idea of getting some income from driving school contracts or summer daytrips.

Sometimes a small independent in one town, will be happy to assist another based 20 miles away if they are a vehicle or driver short. On the railways we wouldn't expect to see Northern using a spare driver or/and unit to run an additional Liverpool to Manchester service because EMR are unable to provide their scheduled service.

 

[Towers]

At least they provided some notice. The GWR website still does not mention no North Downs service today.

Their customer service team and social media team are still unaware as well.

I understand the late notice required before overtime is officially not taken up but surely during an overtime ban it's obvious that no drivers will volunteer for overtime from the moment it's called by Aslef.

Information should have been provided by the operators concerned at the same time as the strike day updates at least.

The lack of service on the North Downs this weekend is planned engineering work, it has nothing to do with an overtime ban and is listed on the GWR website in the appropriate “Engineering Works” section (tab on the homepage) along with all the rest? Notification of industrial action is carried in a big red banner right across the top of the homepage, which links to the appropriate page.

One of the challenges for TOC web teams is exactly how to make a single homepage both informative and easy to use, when there is so much information being demanded and shared; not an easy thing to design and make user friendly. Sometime TOCs are dreadful at providing information, but I do feel it’s important to be accurate about the criticism!

Image below is a screenshot of the above mentioned GWR webpage.

 

[david1212]

Simply put, any industry which provides a 7day a week service should have staff rotas for providing a 7day week service. Volunteering and/or overtime should not be necessary.

Exactly - if the employment contract is say 35 hours employ sufficient staff to cover the scheduled timetable allowing for holiday, regular training and appraisal, typical sickness etc. When engineering requiring additional staff due to extended running time, one-off training e.g. new stock, new/changed routes, additional services ( not that many are even considered now ) then ideally voluntary additional hours offered to cover to avoid reducing the service.

It is a can that keeps getting kicked down the road ......

Fun and Games at Banbury this morning as a result of this.
0955 XC to Bournemouth turned up as a 4 car and was completely full and standing. Literally no Banbury Pax managed to get on. Same story for previous Service as well I was hearing.
 obvs everyone for London trying to use XC to Reading for Paddington (even worse at BAN due to Chiltern Closure beyond Bicester)

Another can that keeps getting kicked down the road is adequate stock/capacity for XC.

 

[43066]

Exactly - if the employment contract is say 35 hours employ sufficient staff to cover the scheduled timetable allowing for holiday, regular training and appraisal, typical sickness etc. When engineering requiring additional staff due to extended running time, one-off training e.g. new stock, new/changed routes, additional services ( not that many are even considered now ) then ideally voluntary additional hours offered to cover to avoid reducing the service.

That’s fair enough as a view point, and many TOCs have negotiated with ASLEF to bring Sundays inside the week which solves a lot of the issues, but the fact remains that it’s now seen as too expensive to bring them in at locations where they remain outside.

There isn’t much sign of that changing anytime soon as the government is evidently quite happy for swathes of the network to close down, and for TOCs to issue do not travel orders, as we have now seen on a few occasions with Northern, WMT (and I believe TPE and Avanti last year?), rather than allowing the negotiation that would resolve the dispute and remove the overtime ban.

 

[geoffk]

It's far, far cheaper to rely on overtime for Sunday than to integrate it which requires hiring an extra 19% staff - an exercise currently being undertaken in Wales who have discovered the cost of doing this is horrific.

Surely the 19% increase would apply only to things like training, pensions, national insurance and other on-costs like uniforms. The same number of hours would be worked and paid, and little or none of it would be at overtime rate. (I'm not suggesting that the extra on-costs are insignificant).

 

[Lurcheroo]

Heard from an AM that the cost has been truly phenomenal ... but, he also said will be probably worth it in the long run.

Sorry just to clarify Is ‘AM’ an area manger ? It’s all I can think of

Interesting as the deal agreed pay wise is reasonable but is included as part of the yearly rises agreement that was made for 3 years. For both guards and drivers and doesn’t seem extortionately more than they would have been paying out for without the changes of terms. In Short it seems TFW had a reasonable deal (and I voted yes to the deal as train crew).

As they pay double time for guards and in my experience often offer additional hours of pay to get jobs covered. I’ve worked 1 hours on a Sunday but got 7.5 hours of double time (that’s the agreed minimum amount for overtime).

 

[bahnause]

Well over a hundred grand, and a year, to train up a driver, who will then only work part time? Fairly unlikely anyone would want to pay for that.

I'm coming out as a part-time train driver here. If part-time wasn't possible, I would drive exactly 0%. Today's labor market demands flexibility from employers when it comes to working models, otherwise employees will leave. Especially if part-time work in other areas of the same company is nothing out of the ordinary. Part-time work can also reduce the health burden, especially with very irregular working hours.

 

[43066]

I'm coming out as a part-time train driver here. If part-time wasn't possible, I would drive exactly 0%. Today's labor market demands flexibility from employers when it comes to working models, otherwise employees will leave. Especially if part-time work in other areas of the same company is nothing out of the ordinary. Part-time work can also reduce the health burden, especially with very irregular working hours.

More power to you, and I work with some part time drivers myself (job sharing as @dk1 alluded to above). It tends to be where existing drivers want to drop down to part time before retirement, or for personal reasons. As you say it makes complete sense to offer it rather than losing a driver.

That’s a different kettle of fish to training people up specifically to be part time, though, which appeared to be the suggestion upthread.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

It’s not just aslef that would have an issue with it. As @43066 said up thread, companies aren’t going to spend money on two people to the job of one driver.

You can’t compare coach drivers to train drivers as the standards that govern competency are very different.
Train drivers go through a continuous cycle of assessment and verification of their competence, Coach drivers don’t.

But it’s not two people to do one drivers job though is it? If you have one driver who is only contacted to work 35 hours Mon-Fri, what’s the issue with employing someone to cover Saturday and Sunday? He isn’t taking any hours off anybody unless they want to do overtime, and I’m sure there could be an agreement that some percentage of jobs were left for those who wanted to do overtime? I realise that would reduce the negotiating strength of the union if they called an overtime ban, but it would potentially give a better service to passengers and may give them more sympathy if there’s still some services to use?


On the subject of competency, all PCV and LGV drivers do have to do a number of hours refresher training on various things over a five year period. it’s called a Driver CPC, and there were concerns when it first came in that the cost of it would reduce the number of part time drivers as the cost of doing it would wipe out any earnings. Costs have come down, but it did finish off a fair few drivers, including full timers near to retirement.

It doesn’t cover the actual driving, but if you think they aren’t assessed regularly try knocking a few mirrors off and see how long you stay in a job - there’s a reason we call them P45 Mirrors!

 

[6Gman]

I'm coming out as a part-time train driver here. If part-time wasn't possible, I would drive exactly 0%. Today's labor market demands flexibility from employers when it comes to working models, otherwise employees will leave. Especially if part-time work in other areas of the same company is nothing out of the ordinary. Part-time work can also reduce the health burden, especially with very irregular working hours.

I think a degree of part-time working may well develop, but it will take time and something of a cultural change.

 

[dk1]

I think C2C recruited some a few years ago (from memory it was to cover weekday peaks, rather than Sundays), but it isn’t widespread for the reasons noted above; mainly cost. It’s impossible to imagine the DfT sanctioning it currently.

For some reason I was thinking that was First Capital Connect.

I think a degree of part-time working may well develop, but it will take time and something of a cultural change.

If I could pick part time hours nearer to the times I want to work then I’d definitely stay driving longer. At my depot we are many many years if ever away from any such agreements so I will just take early retirement.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Not looking to discuss the rights and wrongs of the industrial action (despite being caught up in it quite often, I do support the drivers in this dispute personally), but one major knock-on effect of there being no Thameslink and Great Northern services tomorrow between Peterborough/Cambridge and London is that a lot of people will struggle to get to the Emirates for Arsenal's game against Liverpool. When I've travelled on the southbound services between Biggleswade and Arlesey on Arsenal home game days, the trains have always been pretty well loaded, and with this game being one of, if not the, biggest game of the Premier League season so far, no doubt many fans were planning to travel to the game on Thameslink. This notice was only put out in the last 24 hours, so I suspect a lot of fans will still turn up at the stations along the route tomorrow unaware that no services will be running.

 

[bahnause]

That’s a different kettle of fish to training people up specifically to be part time, though, which appeared to be the suggestion upthread.

Even newly trained drivers have the same chances of working part time after the first year in my company. A lot of people wouldn't even bother to apply otherwise.

 

[PG]

Sorry just to clarify Is ‘AM’ an area manger ? It’s all I can think of

AM could be short for Assembly Member i.e. a member of the Welsh Assembly government.

 

[185]

AM could be short for Assembly Member i.e. a member of the Welsh Assembly government.

Yep .. this

 

[LAX54]

In the hymn of praise from unions for doing away with overtime you seldom hear of the significant numbers of their members who historically have craved as much overtime as they can work and have factored it into their lifestyle/earnings.
Not all employees regard overtime in preference to hiring more staff as the devil's work I would suggest.

although in recent years overtime is now more strictly monitored, maximum 13 days without a break, together with a max of 72 hours in any 7 day period.