why can't i ride from Brighton to London Vicotria by southern anymore

[PGAT]

The shuttle would, I feel, be needed if it had a non-premium price and stopped at Clapham Junction.

In an ideal scenario you would have the GX premium fare shuttle terminating at Gatwick. The spare path would then be used to reinstate the Victoria - Brighton service which would then link Clapham Junction to Brighton directly again.

Re the splitting of coastway services at Haywards Heath: Yes. They need 8 carriages, especially on the Littlehampton end.

 

[yorkie]

We have some relevant threads in the speculative section, if these are of interest:

Southern calling patterns

Quite a broad area but what are people's opinions on the current Southern calling pattern? Do some stations need more services (or less), are new routes needed? A few starter discussion points can be found below Should Clapham Junction & Redhill get a direct service to Brighton? Should Three...

www.railforums.co.uk

Southern Monday-Saturday 1A semi fast return?

Hello. Does anyone know when the 1A semi fast Brighton to London services are going to return on Monday to Saturday I'm aware that southern services do this on a Sunday but I think it will be better when that service returns? Thanks in advance The southern traveller

www.railforums.co.uk

Could Gatwick Express paths be re-used for something else?

This arises from the current discussion on Gatwick Express, but is speculative so I'm placing it here. Namely, given that GX is on long term suspension, could the paths be re-used for something else? I note that two of the paths (xx00 and xx30) are currently being used for a fast-ish Brighton...

www.railforums.co.uk

If anyone would like to make any proposals/suggestions for any matters not covered by the above, feel free to create a new thread

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Unfortunately, this isn’t possible due to pathing reasons. You could call at East Croydon similar to the 2021 Brighton Southern service that ran in the GatEx paths (which stopped at East Croydon but not Clapham Junction), but Clapham Junction has been discussed previously on this forum:

I don't get the issue with pathing issues the 1Mxx dep Vic at xx59/29 which is 5m after previous southbound dep and 6m before the next southbound departure. The important thing here is to ensure presentation time at Windmill Bridge Southbound isn't affected so to achieve this you just need to retime the 1Mxx to depart 2m earlier to provide sufficient time for a CLJ call.

Northbound the 1Cxx are a 1m short of the stopping headway for the 1Mxx to have a CLJ call added but would an additional 1m performance allowance really be that much to be concerned about to get the calls on the Brighton service.

The bottom line here is how much additional revenue would be generated if CLJ had a direct service to Brighton. Time wise southbound there is only a few mins in it if you take a Eastbourne/Ore and change at Haywards Heath but Northbound its worth more like 12mins. Then you have to factor in that many passengers will have come from another station beyond CLJ so does three changes of train put off potential passengers? I can't answer it but what i do know, as i live on the Brighton line is, the 1Mxx are not as well used as other service groups on the line so they represent underutilised capacity which could be better utilised by introducing a CLJ call and provide some relief to other service groups.

Given GX/SN tight stock position now cast in stone for some years making best use of what they have should be the priority to maximise revenue.

 

[Minstral25]

I don't get the issue with pathing issues the 1Mxx dep Vic at xx59/29 which is 5m after previous southbound dep and 6m before the next southbound departure. The important thing here is to ensure presentation time at Windmill Bridge Southbound isn't affected so to achieve this you just need to retime the 1Mxx to depart 2m earlier to provide sufficient time for a CLJ call.

Northbound the 1Cxx are a 1m short of the stopping headway for the 1Mxx to have a CLJ call added but would an additional 1m performance allowance really be that much to be concerned about to get the calls on the Brighton service.

I think this is a historical issue from when there was many more services than today and before the recent re-signalling. Fairly sure there is no issue with the Gatwick Express stopping at Clapham Junction other than DfT (with their silly Airport hat on) will not allow it.

 

[Deepgreen]

Good reasons there may be for the current service pattern, but I never thought I would see the day when I couldn't get from CJ to Brighton without changing. I find it fascinating that Southern has such a relative lack of trains between what are arguably its two most important termini (Victoria and Brighton). Of course, under any sensible system there would not be superfluous different brands (and fares) to choose from, but a simple, single 'operator' such that passengers don't have to worry about choosing (this is more about TL than GatEx in this case).

 

[JonathanH]

I find it fascinating that Southern has such a relative lack of trains between what are arguably its two most important termini (Victoria and Brighton).

It isn't fascinating. Why does Brighton need eight trains an hour to London, at the possible expense of other destinations?

It is just a decision about London Bridge having four trains an hour to Brighton instead of Victoria.

 

[43066]

It isn't fascinating. Why does Brighton need eight trains an hour to London, at the possible expense of other destinations?

Because there’s a good reason why it’s known as “London-on-sea”.

 

[JonathanH]

Because there’s a good reason why it’s known as “London-on-sea”.

Yes, obviously, but it simply isn't true that they all find Victoria easier to get to than the places the Thameslink trains stop.

 

[43066]

Yes, obviously, but it simply isn't true that they all find Victoria easier to get to than the places the Thameslink trains stop.

No indeed, but I thought you were questioning why they needed eight trains to the capital at all? I tend to agree a split between London Bridge and Victoria might be preferable to the current arrangements.

 

[Sussexwatch]

Yes, obviously, but it simply isn't true that they all find Victoria easier to get to than the places the Thameslink trains stop.

As a regular user between Brighton and London, it is clear travel patterns have changed in recent years, far fewer passengers are now using Victoria trains from Brighton and far more are using Thameslink. That may be partly because of fares but I get the impression more people now go to destinations on Thameslink services. I don't think 4tph is needed between Victoria and Brighton, the current service is more than adequate. Last week I travelled back to Brighton on a peak service from Victoria which was very lightly loaded and two days later on a Thameslink train from St Pancras which had standing passengers all the way from Farringdon to Haywards Heath and was still busy on arrival at Brighton.

What I don't understand is why Gatwick Express to Brighton trains now stop at Haywards Heath giving that station up to 10tph to London - far more than it needs. Clapham Junction would be far more useful, both for Brighton and for Gatwick passengers.

 

[Kite159]

What I don't understand is why Gatwick Express to Brighton trains now stop at Haywards Heath giving that station up to 10tph to London - far more than it needs. Clapham Junction would be far more useful, both for Brighton and for Gatwick passengers.

Agreed.

Would get rid of the sight of a mostly empty Gatwick Express crawling through Clapham followed by a Southern service full and standing with Gatwick passengers with more passengers for Gatwick attempting to board with the kitchen sink.

 

[zwk500]

What I don't understand is why Gatwick Express to Brighton trains now stop at Haywards Heath giving that station up to 10tph to London - far more than it needs. Clapham Junction would be far more useful, both for Brighton and for Gatwick passengers.

Presumably they stop at Haywards Heath because they are following a train into Brighton that is stopping at Burgess hill or Hassocks ahead of it and therefore may as well stop rather than get pathed back.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Coastway West needs 12 car trains Saturday mornings.

 

[Sussexwatch]

Presumably they stop at Haywards Heath because they are following a train into Brighton that is stopping at Burgess hill or Hassocks ahead of it and therefore may as well stop rather than get pathed back.

Towards Brighton most Gatwick Express trains are following an Eastbourne/Hastings service which stops at Wivelsfield so they get a clear run after that. If GX trains stopped at Clapham Junction they'd arrive at Haywards Heath a few minutes later and would not get delayed at all by the preceding service.

 

[paul1609]

Agreed.

Would get rid of the sight of a mostly empty Gatwick Express crawling through Clapham followed by a Southern service full and standing with Gatwick passengers with more passengers for Gatwick attempting to board with the kitchen sink.

Traffic figures suggest that's not true. Clapham off peak already has 6tph direct to Gatwick (2x Littlehampton, 2 x Eastbourne, 2 x Arun Valley (Portsmouth/ Southampton/Bognor). There is absolutely no need for Gatwick Express to call at Clapham.

 

[PGAT]

If Gatwick Express stopped at Clapham you could not justify charging premiums for express services

 

[zwk500]

Towards Brighton most Gatwick Express trains are following an Eastbourne/Hastings service which stops at Wivelsfield so they get a clear run after that. If GX trains stopped at Clapham Junction they'd arrive at Haywards Heath a few minutes later and would not get delayed at all by the preceding service.

They'd also arrive at East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges a few minutes later and would almost certainly get in the way there as it's a 2 minute non-stop headway.

 

[Minstral25]

As a regular user between Brighton and London, it is clear travel patterns have changed in recent years, far fewer passengers are now using Victoria trains from Brighton and far more are using Thameslink. That may be partly because of fares but I get the impression more people now go to destinations on Thameslink services. I don't think 4tph is needed between Victoria and Brighton, the current service is more than adequate. Last week I travelled back to Brighton on a peak service from Victoria which was very lightly loaded and two days later on a Thameslink train from St Pancras which had standing passengers all the way from Farringdon to Haywards Heath and was still busy on arrival at Brighton.

What I don't understand is why Gatwick Express to Brighton trains now stop at Haywards Heath giving that station up to 10tph to London - far more than it needs. Clapham Junction would be far more useful, both for Brighton and for Gatwick passengers.

Agree as a regular user too - History says everyone goes to Victoria which they did as only commuters went to London Bridge, but now London Bridge is Blackfriars, Farringdon (for Crossrail) and St Pancras as well many find their journeys are easier using those stations.

The one thing that is needed is a call at Clapham Junction, but not necessary at East Croydon as there are 4 Thameslink's per hour anyway.

I guess Haywards Heath extra calls are because it is easy to do that and so that passengers from Clapham Junction don't have to change at the tricky stations at Gatwick or East Croydon for Brighton but use the better cross-platform facilities at Haywards Heath.

 

[jhy44]

Does seem a bit mad to not have direct trains between what is arguably South London's primary rail hub and South London's primary seaside destination purely due to timetabling decisions.

It's worth bearing in mind that whilst for some of us a simple change isn't problematic; there are many people (those with buggies, with heavy luggage, with mobility issues, general anxiety about travel, those non experts/enthusiasts who find rail travel stressful) for whom an extra change will simply put them off travelling at all, or push them to driving. I know of quite a few people who will choose their travel mode, or their day trip destination, based on whether or not there is a direct train. It won't be obvious to them that there is an 'easy cross-platform interchange at Haywards Heath'. They'll simply see that a journey from SWR-network station to Brighton now requires two changes and they'll think 'that's too complicated/stressful, I'll drive instead', or 'I'll go for my seaside trip to Bournemouth instead'.

Traffic figures suggest that's not true. Clapham off peak already has 6tph direct to Gatwick (2x Littlehampton, 2 x Eastbourne, 2 x Arun Valley (Portsmouth/ Southampton/Bognor). There is absolutely no need for Gatwick Express to call at Clapham.

You're clearly not a regular user of Clapham Junction to Gatwick Airport trains then. They're often (but not always) packed out with barely any standing room left when leaving Clapham Junction; not ideal for people with lots of luggage and/or children. A 25% or 33% increase in capacity by stopping an extra 1 or 2tph respectively is very-much needed.

 

[miklcct]

They'll simply see that a journey from SWR-network station to Brighton now requires two changes and they'll think 'that's too complicated/stressful, I'll drive instead', or 'I'll go for my seaside trip to Bournemouth instead'.

Where is the origin station? The typical route to Brighton in most of the SWR long-distance network (with the West of England line east of Salisbury the major exception) is a change at Southampton or Fareham, while from the suburban network it's Clapham Junction.

 

[XAM2175]

The one thing that is needed is a call at Clapham Junction, but not necessary at East Croydon as there are 4 Thameslink's per hour anyway.

Please excuse the fact that I'm asking from a position of complete ignorance, but would it be possible to swap those calls without breaking everything?

 

[PGAT]

Please excuse the fact that I'm asking from a position of complete ignorance, but would it be possible to swap those calls without breaking everything?

All the ThamesLink trains go through London Bridge. Clapham Junction is on the line to Victoria

 

[XAM2175]

All the ThamesLink trains go through London Bridge. Clapham Junction is on the line to Victoria

That would be important if I wasn't asking "could Gatwick Express swap the East Croydon stop for one at Clapham Junction instead?"

 

[Mcr Warrior]

That would be important if I wasn't asking "could Gatwick Express swap the East Croydon stop for one at Clapham Junction instead?"

Gatwick Express branded services don't currently stop at either Clapham Junction or East Croydon, do they?

 

[XAM2175]

Gatwick Express branded services don't currently stop at either Clapham Junction or East Croydon, do they?

Oh I get it now Yes, they're non-stop from Gatwick to Victoria, and @Minstral25 was saying that it wasn't necessary to add an East Croydon stop.

 

[zwk500]

Oh I get it now Yes, they're non-stop from Gatwick to Victoria, and @Minstral25 was saying that it wasn't necessary to add an East Croydon stop.

Which is fair enough - Victoria to East Croydon with a Clapham Jn Call already has at least 4tph (the 2x 2tph Coastway) and East Croydon to Brighton has 4tph Thameslink

 

[WizCastro197]

Which is fair enough - Victoria to East Croydon with a Clapham Jn Call already has at least 4tph (the 2x 2tph Coastway) and East Croydon to Brighton has 4tph Thameslink

Victoria to East Croydon with Clapham has up to 10tph I believe- 2x Reigate 2x East Grinstead 2x Littlehampton 2x Ore/Eastbourne 2x Bognor Regis with Southampton or Portsmouth.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Victoria to East Croydon with Clapham has up to 10tph I believe- 2x Reigate 2x East Grinstead 2x Littlehampton 2x Ore/Eastbourne 2x Bognor Regis with Southampton or Portsmouth.

Correct ECR to CLJ is adequately served but the services ex Gatwick come in pretty well loaded throughout the day where as E.Grinsteads have plenty of fresh air as majority are still 12's.

 

[Minstral25]

Correct ECR to CLJ is adequately served but the services ex Gatwick come in pretty well loaded throughout the day where as E.Grinsteads have plenty of fresh air as majority are still 12's.

I think East Grinstead's will be 6 or 8 after May, probably 8's.

No need to be 12 coach train as you say and that has been the case for years, even pre-Covid

Oh I get it now Yes, they're non-stop from Gatwick to Victoria, and @Minstral25 was saying that it wasn't necessary to add an East Croydon stop.

Yes - probably should have been clearer

 

[PGAT]

I think East Grinstead's will be 6 or 8 after May, probably 8's.

AFAIK formations won't be changing from May