Why did the Class 508s originally work on Southern Region?

[Merseyrailfan]

I wonder why did Class 508s work on Southern Region? Why were they four car then, whilst only 3 car on Merseyrail. Why were‘not not just transferred to Merseyside straight away.

They just kept 503s in service longer as there was not enough 507s to replace them. Why did Southern Region new stock reuse previous stock traction motor instead having new traction motors like everywhere else.

Why did Southern Region refuse to accept Sliding doors for so long?

 

[30907]

I wonder why did Class 508s work on Southern Region? Why were they four car then, whilst only 3 car on Merseyrail. Why were‘not not just transferred to Merseyside straight away. They just kept 503s in service longer as there was not enough 507s to replace them.

To save money.

More detail: to allow the SR to withdraw 4SUBs (which were significantly older than the 1956 503s), releasing serviceable ee507 motors (the sr standard) for reusethus ssving money; postponing the build of 455s thus saving money; getting maximum use of the 502/3 stock getting maximum value from the asset.

Built as 4-car because the SR was a 4-car railway (on the electric side).

Sliding doors: because the SR had a standardised suburban fleet made up of vehicles of mixed ages.
Sliding doors were more expensive to build and maintain, slower to load/unload.

OT: Arguably they should have been introduced around 1960 for other new electrification schemes such as the GE, as they were in Glasgow, but you asked about the SR

 

[Ken H]

I wonder why did Class 508s work on Southern Region? Why were they four car then, whilst only 3 car on Merseyrail. Why were‘not not just transferred to Merseyside straight away.

They just kept 503s in service longer as there was not enough 507s to replace them. Why did Southern Region new stock reuse previous stock traction motor instead having new traction motors like everywhere else.

Why did Southern Region refuse to accept Sliding doors for so long?

SR reckoned they could not move the people with sliding doors. The PEP family were supposed to be the national way forward. But regions had some autonomy back then.
I think the SR also disliked the auto couplers. So they were glad to be shut of them. And get proper Cl 455 instead. Even though some Cl 455 had 508 trailers as Merseyrail were 3 car (508 were 4 car when new)
I think what you need to ask is why they did not replace the whole Merseyrail fleet in one go with 507's. Probably the government thought some of the old trains could soldier on for a couple of more years.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The former South Western Division of BR operated a fleet of aging slam door units designated 4-SUB dating back from the 1940s/50's and these were in need of urgent replacement

A couple of experimental trains designated 4-PEP were trialed on the Southern and (aside from the subsequent 313/314/315 family that derived from this design), the Southern's version was the 508s. They moved to Merseyside minus 1 TSO coach (from each set) as Merseyside was a 3-car railway. The "spare" TSO coaches were then inserted into the second build of Class 455/7's (but not in numerical order)

As mentioned by @30907, the Southern Region was very resourceful and reused everything possible. I believe even some of the ex 4-SUB compressors found their way into 455's

 

[Merseyrailfan]

slam door trains still being Bulit as 1976. The last being class 312.

Why did EX southern region network seem to keep Slam door trains longer than than rest of country. Most slam door fleets still in service at time(with the exception of few 101s, 308s even thought they were just cascaded from GEML,309s ec.). Most of Connex, SWR network at the time was slam door. Especially Long distance services, slam door fleets should have gone by late 80s, early 90s at latest.

Why did Sliverlink need 508s, when they got a perfectly good fleet of 313s?

 

[nw1]

slam door trains still being Bulit as 1976. The last being class 312.

Why did EX southern region network seem to keep Slam door trains longer than than rest of country. Most slam door fleets still in service at time(with the exception of few 101s, 308s even thought they were just cascaded from GEML,309s ec.). Most of Connex, SWR network at the time was slam door. Especially Long distance services, slam door fleets should have gone by late 80s, early 90s at latest.

Remember the newest slam-door units on the Southern (the newest CIGs and VEPs) were introduced between 1970-1974. To replace them by the late 80s, early 90s would mean that they would have been 20 or less years old. I do realise that sometimes units are withdrawn at that age (365s) but to me it seems wasteful.

As others have said, the 508s did indeed replace the oldest slam-doors (SUBs) which, due to their age, and unlike the newer slam-door stock, were in need of replacement by then.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Remember the newest slam-door units on the Southern (the newest CIGs and VEPs) were introduced between 1970-1974. To replace them by the late 80s, early 90s would mean that they would have been 20 or less years old. I do realise that sometimes units are withdrawn at that age (365s) but it is arguably wasteful to withdraw stock with 15-odd years left.

As others have said, the 508s did indeed replace the oldest slam-doors (SUBs) which, due to their age, were in need of replacement by then.

But how did they survive until 2005? Why did NSE not start to gradually replace their long distance slam door fleet like commuter slam doors fleet with trains like 455,56,65 and 66. It just seems very archaic by the millennium to have like 40 to 50 year trains still in service. They just looked old, I know 313, 507, 508s are just about same age now but With big refurbishments they look younger, especially 507/508s.

 

[nw1]

But how did they survive until 2005? Why did NSE not start to gradually replace their long distance slam door fleet like commuter slam doors fleet with trains like 455,56,65 and 66. It just seems very archaic by the millennium to have like 40 to 50 year trains still in service. They just looked old, I know 313, 507, 508s are just about same age now but With big refurbishments they look younger, especially 507/508s.

NSE didn't exist by the millennium, of course. They lasted until around 1994 (?) when the shadow franchises came in. And by the millennium, none of the units under discussion were anything close to 50 years old, anyhow. More like 25-40 years, not 40-50. Oldest were the CEPs, at 40. Newest were the 1974 VEPs, at a mere 25 years old.

And they were replaced not long after the millennium anyhow! "Seems very archaic" and "looked old" isn't reason on its own for early replacements. The EPBs "looked old" to me in 1982 (not that it bothered me, in fact I enjoyed a railway with units of varying ages), but were not replaced on many routes for more than 10 years after that! I've seen units in Belgium within the last 10 years or so which look like real museum-pieces, but it didn't bother me. And the notion of old ex-Tube stock on the IoW doesn't bother me either.

About 35 years seems to be the standard lifespan for a unit. And 1970-74 plus 35 years is... 2005-2009.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Remember the newest slam-door units on the Southern (the newest CIGs and VEPs) were introduced between 1970-1974. To replace them by the late 80s, early 90s would mean that they would have been 20 or less years old. I do realise that sometimes units are withdrawn at that age (365s) but to me it seems wasteful.

As others have said, the 508s did indeed replace the oldest slam-doors (SUBs) which, due to their age, and unlike the newer slam-door stock, were in need of replacement by then.

Yet BR loved sending 5 to 10 year old Standard class steam locomotives and loco meant to replace the steam engines ”non standard” diesels went like 10 years later just because of stupid BR management.

NSE didn't exist by the millennium, of course. They lasted until around 1994 (?) when the shadow franchises came in.

And they were replaced not long after the millennium anyhow! "Looked old" isn't reason on its own for early replacements. The EPBs "looked old" to me in 1982 (not that it bothered me), but were not replaced on many routes for more than 10 years after that! I've seen units in Belgium within the last 10 years or so which look like real museum-pieces, but it didn't bother me. And the notion of old ex-Tube stock on the IoW doesn't bother me either.

About 35 years seems to be the standard lifespan for a unit. And 1970-74 plus 35 years is... 2005-2009.

Ok, Could they not just fit mabye just one door sliding doors surely it would make more modern. The thing is the slam door fleet just look some 50s Mark 1 interior just instead of Red it was NSE Blue. Could they at least made it look at bit more modern in the short to medium term, whilst they develop their replacements. I know they were refurbished but it just really does look like the near original train interior. They could have done better. You would think Busy commuter lines would a better stock. Yes, I know 101s were still being used on Rural Regional Railways services and Manchester to Rose Green Service, but they kinda unique. But Honestly, as much as hate the pacers, they probably helped branch lines get better services, I don’t mind Sprinters, 150s did similar job to Pacers, branch line and commuter services, 153 where Used on lightly used lines, 155 on Short to medium distance routes, same for 156, and 158s on Regional Express replacing erm Loco hauled(usually 31, thought something like a 45 or 47 on transpennine routes). The Thing Is as much as do like old stock. You need to kinda modernise, It was not Regional Railways had old fleets, they did as I mentioned before 101s and 37s on North Wales Coast. I think it Regional Railways is actaully forgotten, it was most revolutionary sector in Sectorization Era

 

[nw1]

Yet BR loved sending 5 to 10 year old Standard class steam locomotives and loco meant to replace the steam engines ”non standard” diesels went like 10 years later just because of stupid BR management.


Ok, Could they not just fit mabye just one door sliding doors surely it would make more modern. The thing is the slam door fleet just look some 50s Mark 1 interior just instead of Red it was NSE Blue. Could they at least made it look at bit more modern in the short to medium term, whilst they develop their replacements. I know they were refurbished but it just really does look like the near original train interior. They could have done better. You would think Busy commuter lines would a better stock.

The prime routes had 442s by then anyway. And for medium-distance semi-fast routes, many would argue that the CIGs were perfectly fine for that purpose in the early or mid-90s.

As someone who commuted on the 42x classes to school for seven years in the 80s, and used them regularly for leisure purposes in the 90s, they really weren't that bad!

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Did Connex South central not introduce any new trains in its short existence. I just wondering then.

 

[nw1]

Did Connex South central not introduce any new trains in its short existence. I just wondering then.

I don't think so, though it did get some 319s from Thameslink - and the 455s and 456s were still pretty new. Plus South Eastern did get some of the 508s back for a while!

 

[Merseyrailfan]

The thing is Connex did not have any experience in Transport, weren’t they like some French water company? How can they run reliable trains.

at least SWR tried, Connex did not try.

Stagecoach had experience in buses, ok it takes more work to operate trains, but that way better than Connex who just is french company that for some stupid reason won not one but two franchise?

 

[Wolfie]

Yet BR loved sending 5 to 10 year old Standard class steam locomotives and loco meant to replace the steam engines ”non standard” diesels went like 10 years later just because of stupid BR management.


Ok, Could they not just fit mabye just one door sliding doors surely it would make more modern. The thing is the slam door fleet just look some 50s Mark 1 interior just instead of Red it was NSE Blue. Could they at least made it look at bit more modern in the short to medium term, whilst they develop their replacements. I know they were refurbished but it just really does look like the near original train interior. They could have done better. You would think Busy commuter lines would a better stock. Yes, I know 101s were still being used on Rural Regional Railways services and Manchester to Rose Green Service, but they kinda unique. But Honestly, as much as hate the pacers, they probably helped branch lines get better services, I don’t mind Sprinters, 150s did similar job to Pacers, branch line and commuter services, 153 where Used on lightly used lines, 155 on Short to medium distance routes, same for 156, and 158s on Regional Express replacing erm Loco hauled(usually 31, thought something like a 45 or 47 on transpennine routes). The Thing Is as much as do like old stock. You need to kinda modernise, It was not Regional Railways had old fleets, they did as I mentioned before 101s and 37s on North Wales Coast. I think it Regional Railways is actaully forgotten, it was most revolutionary sector in Sectorization Era

It certainly makes a change to see someone on here complaining about insufficient investment in London and the Southeast, albeit a while ago, and comparing the rolling stock there unfavorably with that elsewhere in the country....

The newer Southern region slamdoor stock did their job very well and weren't due for replacement in the time period that you are talking about. Wholesale premature replacement would have been extortionately expensive.

 

[Ken H]

They did refurbish slam door stock. The dark wooden interiors were replaced with white laminate and some doors were closed up to make them less draughty
But getting a replacement past the Treasury when not fully written down was just not possible.
Things changed after the Cannon Street rail crash though.
There was a plan to use the existing underframes and electrics, and rebody with sliding doors. But that never happened.

 

[AndrewE]

Yet BR loved sending 5 to 10 year old Standard class steam locomotives [for scrap?] and loco meant to replace the steam engines ”non standard” diesels went like 10 years later just because of stupid BR management.

Actually BR management knew what they wanted to do... but the politicians forced loads of random diesels on them to try to boost home industry, regardless of whether those companies had any experience of building diesel locos - or even a proven power unit in mind! Also BR were also forced to accept loads of small fleets before any prototypes had even been evaluated. The loco's lack of power (both steam and diesel) is an unfortunate fact of life as nobody foresaw the collapse in the need for small local (trip) freights or the arrival of DMUs to replace a small steam loco and a couple of coaches.

And why is it that some people always assume that BR management were "stupid?" If they hadn't been as good as they were you wouldn't have half the railway we have now. The railway is run now is absolutely stupid if you ask me.

 

[yorksrob]

Remember the newest slam-door units on the Southern (the newest CIGs and VEPs) were introduced between 1970-1974. To replace them by the late 80s, early 90s would mean that they would have been 20 or less years old. I do realise that sometimes units are withdrawn at that age (365s) but to me it seems wasteful.

As others have said, the 508s did indeed replace the oldest slam-doors (SUBs) which, due to their age, and unlike the newer slam-door stock, were in need of replacement by then.

Indeed. The VEP's were reliable and reasonably well laid out units for their job. There would have been no justification for withdrawing them after twenty years, purely on the basis that they had slam doors.

 

[Snow1964]

I wonder why did Class 508s work on Southern Region? Why were they four car then, whilst only 3 car on Merseyrail. Why were‘not not just transferred to Merseyside straight away.

The reason was the Merseyside sets were still in fairly good condition in late 1970s

However the trains on South Western division were suffering and needed an urgent fix. Back then many of the 4SUBs dated from the 1940s and had been built when material and parts shortages were common due to WW2. All sorts of parts had been salvaged from older stock. I think the first 10 all steel 4SUBs had been built near start of the war, complete with some first class size compartments.

Historically these had partly replaced the original LSWR 3car torpedo front electric sets from 1916. They had later been reformed into 4car sets. However until the 2017 platform lengthening virtually all platforms on Waterloo suburban were based on 520-540 feet (about 159-164m) so could only handle 8car trains, not 3x3car (which would have been nearer 600 feet long, or 180m in metric) which explains why 4th car was built, but later incorporated into 455s

By the late 1970s, some of the South Western was using 2SAP units which were originally built for stopping trains on Kent Coast electrification as 2HAP, but had been downgraded to all second class. (They had effectively become spare in Kent when some of the later batches of 4VEPs were built). But simply wasn't enough 2HAPs and 2SAPs to oust the old 4SUBs so the 508s became a stopgap.

I'm don't know why Merseyside needed 76 units in total, or why it was decided to split the order as 33 507s and 43 508s. The 33 507s clearly wasn't same quantity as 152 class 502 vehicles but there were 43 3car class 503s

There are not that many 40+ year old passenger vehicles left on the network now, but many of the 508 vehicles are still in use, and even some of the 455s are now over 40 years old too. These have lasted longer than both the 1916 stock, and the 1940s trains.

 

[yorksrob]

Yet BR loved sending 5 to 10 year old Standard class steam locomotives and loco meant to replace the steam engines ”non standard” diesels went like 10 years later just because of stupid BR management.


Ok, Could they not just fit mabye just one door sliding doors surely it would make more modern. The thing is the slam door fleet just look some 50s Mark 1 interior just instead of Red it was NSE Blue. Could they at least made it look at bit more modern in the short to medium term, whilst they develop their replacements. I know they were refurbished but it just really does look like the near original train interior. They could have done better. You would think Busy commuter lines would a better stock. Yes, I know 101s were still being used on Rural Regional Railways services and Manchester to Rose Green Service, but they kinda unique. But Honestly, as much as hate the pacers, they probably helped branch lines get better services, I don’t mind Sprinters, 150s did similar job to Pacers, branch line and commuter services, 153 where Used on lightly used lines, 155 on Short to medium distance routes, same for 156, and 158s on Regional Express replacing erm Loco hauled(usually 31, thought something like a 45 or 47 on transpennine routes). The Thing Is as much as do like old stock. You need to kinda modernise, It was not Regional Railways had old fleets, they did as I mentioned before 101s and 37s on North Wales Coast. I think it Regional Railways is actaully forgotten, it was most revolutionary sector in Sectorization Era

The CEP's got a fairly heavy duty refurbishment that made their interiors look very different from when built.

The CIG's had more of a "facelift" and their interiors looked more like the original spec.

It's a matter of debate as to which provided the better travelling experience.

Pretty much all of the slam door fleets around in the noughties were more comfortable than 142's and 150's.

 

[pdeaves]

Why did Sliverlink need 508s, when they got a perfectly good fleet of 313s?

They needed more trains, there weren't any more 313s available at the time and there 508s available.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Why did Sliverlink need 508s, when they got a perfectly good fleet of 313s?

A fleet of 21 x 313's was insufficient when the NLL went up to an all day 4 tph service , plus the newly wired Willesden - Clapham route needed another 2 daily sets. Both routes needed dual voltage sets .

The three 508's were ideal for the DC , provided no one tried to switch them onto a 25kV line on the Euston approach. They were fine for short term use. (they had , I understand , some corrossion)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why did Sliverlink need 508s, when they got a perfectly good fleet of 313s?

A fleet of 21 x 313's was insufficient when the NLL went up to an all day 4 tph service , plus the newly wired Willesden - Clapham route needed another 2 daily sets. Both routes needed dual voltage sets .

The three 508's were ideal for the DC , provided no one tried to switch them onto a 25kV line on the Euston approach. They were fine for short term use. (they had , I understand , some corrossion)

It was always a bonus when you got a 508 on the DC, as they didn't have the dingy bit with no windows the 313s have under the pantograph in the centre car.

 

[Ken H]

Why did Sliverlink need 508s, when they got a perfectly good fleet of 313s?

A fleet of 21 x 313's was insufficient when the NLL went up to an all day 4 tph service , plus the newly wired Willesden - Clapham route needed another 2 daily sets. Both routes needed dual voltage sets .

The three 508's were ideal for the DC , provided no one tried to switch them onto a 25kV line on the Euston approach. They were fine for short term use. (they had , I understand , some corrossion)

you have to wonder about the quality of the due diligence of the government then in that so many of the PEP family trains ended up working on completely different routes from what they were authorised for. Especially Cl 313.

 

[Wolfie]

The CEP's got a fairly heavy duty refurbishment that made their interiors look very different from when built.

The CIG's had more of a "facelift" and their interiors looked more like the original spec.

It's a matter of debate as to which provided the better travelling experience.

Pretty much all of the slam door fleets around in the noughties were more comfortable than 142's and 150's.

Re your last para l'm not, as you know, a great slamdoor fan but for the VEPs, CEPs and CIGs l absolutely agree. EPBs not so much so....

 

[Merseyrailfan]

why was there too much Class 508s on Merseyrail, that they need to withdraw some.

Ok question for you slam door lovers, why did Southern Railway stick with basic slam doors. When LMS bulit class 502 and 503 revolutionary coming with silding doors, very modern for late 30s, although Merseyside 3rd Rail Network then went from Liverpool Exchange To Southport and Ormskirk. Modernisation hey hey.

I prefer Merseyside 3rd Rail over Ex Southern 3rd Rail, as you can see.

Was Southern Railway/Region scared of door Opening themselves, until like late 70s lol?

 

[yorksrob]

Re your last para l'm not, as you know, a great slamdoor fan but for the VEPs, CEPs and CIGs l absolutely agree. EPBs not so much so....

I'd say the EPB's were great, but then you probably knew I'd say that

 

[Snow1964]

Ok question for you slam door lovers, why did Southern Railway stick with basic slam doors. When LMS bulit class 502 and 503 revolutionary coming with silding doors, very modern for late 30s, although Merseyside 3rd Rail Network then went from Liverpool Exchange To Southport and Ormskirk. Modernisation hey hey.

Southern didn't like the idea of mix of sliding door and slam door, so continued with what it knew worked.

It never really introduced enough stock at same time to convert a line to fully sliding door. Of course it took nearer 13 years to convert the inner suburban from start of 508s to last Networkers

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Why were 508s refurbished first before 507s?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Ok, Could they not just fit mabye just one door sliding doors surely it would make more modern.

One coach from a 4-EPB was tried with sliding doors in the 1970s as I understand but I don't think it ever entered public service in that guise. Obviously the experiment wasn't a success and a "scaled down" facelift was done instead

Also, let's not forget the 4-REPs and trailer sets (before the Weymouth 442's) which were also Mk1 slam door stock and built/converted for the 1967 Bournemouth electrification. The motor coaches of the 4-REPs were built between 1967 and 1974.

Anyway, I digress...

Ok question for you slam door lovers, why did Southern Railway stick with basic slam doors.

The Southern Region carriage works at Eastleigh were expert for building slam door stock - they also built suburban stock for the London end of the Eastern Region out of Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street. They went with what they knew and they could churn out new stock quickly without a lengthy redesign

Also, for the Southern at least, slam doors to every seating bay were perfect for London commuters into the City and West End. Compared to now, you wouldn't believe the numbers !

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Also, for the Southern at least, slam doors to every seating bay were perfect for London commuters into the City and West End. Compared to now, you wouldn't believe the numbers

So because they worried sliding door trains would have less doors.

They want high density slam door stock.