Why did the Class 508s originally work on Southern Region?

[Merseyrailfan]

Ok.

Dont worry

 

[Magdalia]

I come late to this discussion. I'm more familiar with a/c land history than d/c land history but here goes.

A couple of experimental trains designated 4-PEP were trialed on the Southern

slam door trains still being Built as 1976. The last being class 312.

There were 64 x 313 sets built , very generous indeed , and the initial service plans for the (succesfull) Great Northern scheme were watered down when some service experience was gained.

The GN suburban electrification followed on from the experimental PEP units. BR only had design resources to develop an inner suburban EMU from the PEP, which became class 313. Sliding doors were essential for the inner suburban EMUs for running in and out of Moorgate. For the outer suburban EMUs sliding doors were not essential, so class 312 was basically an enhanced version of class 310, which was much less demanding on design resources. There were various reasons for the class 313 order being so big, including running a 24 hour service. But it quickly became apparent that far higher levels of unit availability could be achieved than had been assumed in the plans, especially once the 24 hour service had been abandoned. Hornsey operated broadly by maintaining outer suburban units during the day and inner suburban units during the night.

No, the Southern had too many issues with the 508s.

The most important issue was leaves on the line. In the autumn of 1981 drivers refused to operate the class 508s because of safety concerns with a large number of incidents involving trains overshooting stations. The class 508s were withdrawn from traffic for most of November 1981.

The CEP's got a fairly heavy duty refurbishment that made their interiors look very different from when built.

The 4CEP refurbishment was in the early 1980s when BR had virtually no money for investment. The prospects for a new d/c PEP derivative outer suburban EMU at that time were effectively zero.

 

[Magdalia]

Once franchising started, fleet could be renewed but initially only where longer contracts were awarded as the standard 7 year term didn't allow for the payback on investment. For SWT and (Connex) South Central this became an issue because pressure was building to replace the Mk1 slam door fleet which had been decreed inadequate for modern safety standards in the wake of the Hidden report into the Clapham accident (1988).

They were withdrawn more gradually until only a handful were left by 2005.

Many of you will remember the relatively recent saga of withdrawal of units not compliant with PRM regulations. Withdrawal of the slam door fleet was quite a lot like that, but about 15 years earlier.

 

[contrex]

However the trains on South Western division were suffering and needed an urgent fix. Back then many of the 4SUBs dated from the 1940s and had been built when material and parts shortages were common due to WW2. All sorts of parts had been salvaged from older stock. I think the first 10 all steel 4SUBs had been built near start of the war, complete with some first class size compartments.

To be exact, the first 'Sheba' 4-SUB (unit 4101) was built in 1941. It had one composite trailer (1st and 3rd class), the remainder 4102-4110 were 1944 build and were all third class. They weren't all-steel, they had steel body sides and timber and canvas roofs. They were so informally named by staff because of the Queen of Sheba who, in the King James Bible was said to have a 'very great train'. SUBS from the next batch 4111 onwards (1946-1951) were indeed all-steel and were called 'Queen Marys', I think because of the very loud whistle which reminded people of the ocean liner's hooter.

 

[nw1]

Ok.

Dont worry

I have a distinct memory of a 12CIG operating an evening Waterloo-Alton service on 4 April 2005. That was the last time I saw a slam-door working on the Southern, with the exception of the Lymington service which lasted a few years later (May 2010 according to Wikipedia).

Thus, I think the last time I would have travelled on a Southern slam-door EMU would have been around late July 2008, as I don't believe I used the Lymington line in 2009 or early 2010.

That said, a good number of slam-door units were still in operation even after the big Dec 2004 timetable change. One day in late Dec 2004 I was on the Portsmouth Direct and, being the changeover period, there was a very wide selection of unit types (CIGs, VEPs, 444s and 450s) and lengths (4-car to 12-car) on that particular day!

 

[yorksrob]

Many of you will remember the relatively recent saga of withdrawal of units not compliant with PRM regulations. Withdrawal of the slam door fleet was quite a lot like that, but about 15 years earlier.

I'd left the South by that time, but as far as I was aware, the Southern Region slam door fleet was withdrawn as and when its replacements became available, whereas with the recent PRM deadline, stock has been withdrawn without adequate replacements being in place (see MML).

These seem like very different approaches to managing fleet replacement.

 

[Magdalia]

I'd left the South by that time, but as far as I was aware, the Southern Region slam door fleet was withdrawn as and when its replacements became available, whereas with the recent PRM deadline, stock has been withdrawn without adequate replacements being in place (see MML).

These seem like very different approaches to managing fleet replacement.

I was thinking more of deadlines being set and then extended.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

What was last slam door unit on ex Southern Region network

Can't comment on the last 'Unit' left on SW network, but the last slam door passenger train (except on Lymington Pier) ran on 25 May 2005, and was the 11.35 Waterloo to Bournemouth, which left from platform 9 at Waterloo formed with 4 Cig 1396 + 4 Vep 3536 + 4 Cig 1399.

the Southern Region slam door fleet was withdrawn as and when its replacements became available

Correct. As each new Desiro (or batch of) became available, the Planning team introduced them in to service which then allowed a similar number of 400 slammers to be withdrawn.

 

[Wolfie]

Can't comment on the last 'Unit' left on SW network, but the last slam door passenger train (except on Lymington Pier) ran on 25 May 2005, and was the 11.35 Waterloo to Bournemouth, which left from platform 9 at Waterloo formed with 4 Cig 1396 + 4 Vep 3536 + 4 Cig 1399.


Correct. As each new Desiro (or batch of) became available, the Planning team introduced them in to service which then allowed a similar number of 400 slammers to be withdrawn.

Presumably the usual story of an assessment of condition and those in a poor state or being due heavy maintenance being the first to go?

 

[Ted633]

What was last slam door unit on ex Southern Region network?

In service and excluding the Lymington units, it would if been the 'Last Run' that Southern organised on 26-Nov-05, featuring VEP's 3490+3505+3535.

Southern's Last Run: Brighton

Again excluding the Lymington units, the last movement under power was 15-Dec-05 featuring VEP's 3486 and 3530

Last '63 Stock Mainline Run Under Own Power

extra.southernelectric.org.uk

The southern electric group website linked above is an excellent resource on the final months of slam door operations on the Southern region.

 

[O L Leigh]

The most important issue was leaves on the line. In the autumn of 1981 drivers refused to operate the class 508s because of safety concerns with a large number of incidents involving trains overshooting stations. The class 508s were withdrawn from traffic for most of November 1981.

That wasn't specific to the Cl508s, as it affected other "PEP Classes" too. I certainly remember it being a big issue with the Cl315s.

It also wasn't a "problem" as such, but rather a consequence of BR trying to make these metro-style units by having unrealistically high braking rates. Combined with disc brakes, railhead contamination became problematic in a way that it wasn't prior to their introduction. It was not uncommon for Cl315s to get into an all-wheel slide in brake step 1 resulting in the suspension of the service to stations like Bush Hill Park during autumn. It took quite a long time to get on top of the issue and was only fully dealt with by a combination of on-train sanding equipment, railhead treatment trains and turning down the brakes.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That wasn't specific to the Cl508s, as it affected other "PEP Classes" too. I certainly remember it being a big issue with the Cl315s.

It also wasn't a "problem" as such, but rather a consequence of BR trying to make these metro-style units by having unrealistically high braking rates. Combined with disc brakes, railhead contamination became problematic in a way that it wasn't prior to their introduction. It was not uncommon for Cl315s to get into an all-wheel slide in brake step 1 resulting in the suspension of the service to stations like Bush Hill Park during autumn. It took quite a long time to get on top of the issue and was only fully dealt with by a combination of on-train sanding equipment, railhead treatment trains and turning down the brakes.

In a large number of my archive photos of 508s from their time on the southern, there is damage to the front end step plates which appears to be consistent with running into buffers - either fixed or on other stock in the depot. I'll see if I can find one tonight and post it up.