Why did the GOBLIN not run to St. Pancras?

[Sad Sprinter]

I know it stopped at Kentish Town for many years, and there were a tiny number of through services into St Pancras, but why was there no regular service? Seems it'll attract at least a bit more custom than dumping passengers off at Kentish Town or possibly even Gospel Oak

 

[etr221]

Traditionally, from Midland Railway days, services on the Tottenham and Hampstead Joint line - which became the west end of the Goblin - were through to Moorgate via the Metropolitan Widened Lines, with pre-WW1, some to Victoria via the LCDR, eastern temini varying - some went on to Barking, most didn't go that far, and formed the bulk of the Midland's London suburban services. AIUI, they were badly affected in the Edwardian era by the opening of the 'Hampstead Tube' (later Northern line), and the electric trams. Service through to Moorgate was withdrawn in 1940 due to war damage, and, unlike the 'main line', never reinstated post war, with most services only going to Kentish Town. And in the post war period, until the 1980s (?) such orbital services (as it was, not running beyond Kentish Town) were the cinderellas of London's transport system, neglected investment wise, and infrequent services. When, under the GLC, they developed, it was as orbital services - so 'Goblin' went to Gospel Oak, to change to the North London line, the curve to Kentish Town having gone and the sort of frequent service to justify restoring it seen (rightly or wrongly) as too difficult, and demanding of paths over what had become Thameslink.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Traditionally, from Midland Railway days, services on the Tottenham and Hampstead Joint line - which became the west end of the Goblin - were through to Moorgate via the Metropolitan Widened Lines, with pre-WW1, some to Victoria via the LCDR, eastern temini varying - some went on to Barking, most didn't go that far, and formed the bulk of the Midland's London suburban services. AIUI, they were badly affected in the Edwardian era by the opening of the 'Hampstead Tube' (later Northern line), and the electric trams. Service through to Moorgate was withdrawn in 1940 due to war damage, and, unlike the 'main line', never reinstated post war, with most services only going to Kentish Town. And in the post war period, until the 1980s (?) such orbital services (as it was, not running beyond Kentish Town) were the cinderellas of London's transport system, neglected investment wise, and infrequent services. When, under the GLC, they developed, it was as orbital services - so 'Goblin' went to Gospel Oak, to change to the North London line, the curve to Kentish Town having gone and the sort of frequent service to justify restoring it seen (rightly or wrongly) as too difficult, and demanding of paths over what had become Thameslink.

Thanks very much for a fantastic answer. It makes you wonder what could have happened if the Goblin and LCDR City Line was electrified to compete with the Northern...

 

[Cricketer8for9]

They might have gone the way of the North London Line. Staggered on, been proposed for closure and perhaps escaped. It’s impossible to over-estimate the effect trams and buses had on inner London rail use. From dirty steam trains to clean electric trams or buses travelling all the way into central London. Passengers were lost hand over fist. Electrification helped but then the 1st world war got in the way. The heyday of railways in the UK was just before WW1; look at all the major capital schemes built then and the very few built between the wars.

 

[Magdalia]

The Tottenham and Hampstead was primarily for freight, in particular to give the Midland Railway access to the London Docks. But there was some passenger traffic too: boat trains between St Pancras and Tilbury ran via the Tottenham and Hampstead well into the 1960s, go back a bit further and there were boat trains between St Pancras and the Royal Docks too.

 

[Taunton]

Even in a 1939 LMS timetable most of the services (and all on Sundays) start at Kentish Town, with connections from main line St Pancras and/or Moorgate. Doubtless a range of reasons, but passenger capacity on the Midland was always restricted, especially at St Pancras main, and most of the areas served had much more direct rail, and particularly bus, services into central London. St Pancras was not particularly convenient for much anyway, and an onward tube or bus journey was needed anyway. The services were not turn-up-and-go, there were gaps of more than an hour, although surprisingly a perfect even interval 30 minute timetable on Sundays. For cross-London suburbs journeys, however, there was less opportunity for bus or other rail.

It's a bit difficult nowadays to see what was through and what not, as the times shown then did not distinguish between through trains and connections, people were expected to just be advised by staff. It needs working out by comparing St Pancras or Moorgate times shown with the main line suburban table.

 

[Andy R. A.]

The St. Pancras and Tilbury Boat trains ended around 1962 with the advent of the LTS electrification from Fenchurch Street. (Remember the 308s which had one entire coach of the four car set exclusively for Luggage/Parcels ?).
The Barking services continued to have the first and last trains of the day running into St. Pancras until 1966, when the junction at Islip Street, and the Signal Box, were seriously damaged in an Empty Stock derailment, and subsequent collision. https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_KentishTown1966.pdf The junction was never repaired, and taken out. So from then on through working to and from St. Pancras was no longer possible. Kentish Town was shown as an interchange point for the Northern Line of the Underground, although the interchange wasn't that convenient at that time. You had to exit the BR station and walk a couple of hundred yards along the road to reach the Underground station.

 

[Magdalia]

The St. Pancras and Tilbury Boat trains ended around 1962 with the advent of the LTS electrification from Fenchurch Street. (Remember the 308s which had one entire coach of the four car set exclusively for Luggage/Parcels ?).

The almost full LTS electrification was in June 1962 but the boat trains to/from St Pancras did not end immediately. Peter Kay's LTS history says that the Swedish Lloyd boat trains only started to run from Fenchurch Street with AM8/2s (the units with the luggage vans) from April 1963. I have also seen St Pancras-Tilbury boat trains in 1963 STNs. I recall seeing a picture of a BRCW Type 2 on a Tilbury boat train somewhere, but at the moment I can't locate it.

 

[DidcotDickie]

The almost full LTS electrification was in June 1962 but the boat trains to/from St Pancras did not end immediately. Peter Kay's LTS history says that the Swedish Lloyd boat trains only started to run from Fenchurch Street with AM8/2s (the units with the luggage vans) from April 1963. I have also seen St Pancras-Tilbury boat trains in 1963 STNs. I recall seeing a picture of a BRCW Type 2 on a Tilbury boat train somewhere, but at the moment I can't locate it.

Interesting comments on the boat trains. I travelled to school on the Upminster - Grays branch starting in Sept 1965 and in my first year recall leaving early one day for a hospital appointment. I distinctly recall seeing a boat train passing through Grays station en route for Tilbury consisting of a green type 2 diesel hauling an elderly rake of maroon ex-LMS 'porthole' stock. This would have been late 1965 or early 1966 as the vehicles were steam heated with a lot of steam leaking between the carriages.

I assumed the train had originated from St Pancras as I never saw a loco-hauled service in Fenchurch St.

 

[Magdalia]

Interesting comments on the boat trains. I travelled to school on the Upminster - Grays branch starting in Sept 1965 and in my first year recall leaving early one day for a hospital appointment. I distinctly recall seeing a boat train passing through Grays station en route for Tilbury consisting of a green type 2 diesel hauling an elderly rake of maroon ex-LMS 'porthole' stock. This would have been late 1965 or early 1966 as the vehicles were steam heated with a lot of steam leaking between the carriages.

Thanks for this. There is very little information on the boat trains to/from the London Docks in their final years.

I assumed the train had originated from St Pancras as I never saw a loco-hauled service in Fenchurch St.

These are not the only possibilities. The train could also have started from Liverpool Street, though I agree that ex LMS stock does suggest St Pancras.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There were GLC "ideas" of terminating the GOB at West Hampstead (Midland) - observe the concrete "space" alongside the present up slow London end - now that may have worked with the sparse diesel services into St Pancras and Moorgate (relatively spares that is) , and some considerable layout changes would have been neccessary - but this concept was replaced by the modified layout and platfoms at Gospel Oak.

(In passing there were seasonal summer specials from Tring / Watford to Southend crewed by Watford Junction drivers)

 

[Railwaysceptic]

The Barking services continued to have the first and last trains of the day running into St. Pancras until 1966, when the junction at Islip Street, and the Signal Box, were seriously damaged in an Empty Stock derailment, and subsequent collision. https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_KentishTown1966.pdf The junction was never repaired, and taken out. So from then on through working to and from St. Pancras was no longer possible.

Some time in the late 1970s I travelled one evening from Leyton Midland Road to St. Pancras. My memory is vague but I seem to recall the train was intended to terminate at Kentish Town but was sent on to St Pancras. I can still recall alighting at a deserted St. Pancras at about 21.15 in rapidly fading light. It was probably either April or August.

 

[Andy R. A.]

Some time in the late 1970s I travelled one evening from Leyton Midland Road to St. Pancras. My memory is vague but I seem to recall the train was intended to terminate at Kentish Town but was sent on to St Pancras. I can still recall alighting at a deserted St. Pancras at about 21.15 in rapidly fading light. It was probably either April or August.

I have my Signal diagrams of the area as they were in the 1970s when I was working at St. Pancras (1972-74), and I continued to travel over the line between St. Pancras and Mill Hill almost daily until 1981, and there was no physical track connection between the the Barking to Kentish Town Line and the St. Pancras lines south of Kentish Town since Islip Street Junction was removed at the end of 1966. The journey could only have been accomplished by shunting via Carlton Road Junction.

St.Px - Mill Hill 04. Carlton Road/Kentish Town. November 1976

The layout in this area has changed a lot. After the Kentish Town Barking DMUs were switched to Gospel Oak (1981) the Mortimer Street to Engine Shed Junction curves were removed. Because of the limited space at Carlton Road it was one of the few places that had a Single Slip Facing Point which...

www.flickr.com

St.Px - Mill Hill 03. Camden Road/Kentish Town. November 1976

The Ground Frame at the south end of Kentish Town on the Moorgate Lines was heavily used at this time by the DMUs on the Barking - Kentish Town services. After arrival in the Up Platform the train would shunt to the Down platform for departure via the Ground frame. At this time passenger trains...

www.flickr.com

St.Px - Mill Hill 02. Dock Junction/Cambridge Street November 1976

Traffic onto the Down Carriage Line and on/off Cambridge Street Depot was done by Block Bell/Telephone. During the morning Rush Hour there were usually two occasions when three trains would depart the station at the same time. One to the Down Carriage, One to the Down Main, and one to the Down...

www.flickr.com

St.Px - Mill Hill 01. St. Pancras station area. November 1976

The diagram has many memories for me. My Railway career started back in 1972 at St. Pancras Box as Train recorder/Station Announcer. I have been able to add the Track Circuit numbers from my original diagram. Such a view was to be had over the station area and its approaches (as long as the gas...

www.flickr.com

 

[Class15]

The Tottenham and Hampstead was primarily for freight, in particular to give the Midland Railway access to the London Docks. But there was some passenger traffic too: boat trains between St Pancras and Tilbury ran via the Tottenham and Hampstead well into the 1960s, go back a bit further and there were boat trains between St Pancras and the Royal Docks too.

How can a train on the GOBLIN get to Poplar?

 

[Magdalia]

How can a train on the GOBLIN get to Poplar?

The Royal Docks were not in Poplar, they were in Silvertown, where London City Airport is now.

 

[Class15]

The Royal Docks were not in Poplar, they were in Silvertown, where London City Airport is now.

You said “London docks”. The Poplar docks were London Docks.

 

[Magdalia]

You said “London docks”. The Poplar docks were London Docks.

I am not aware of boat trains to the Poplar Docks.

But the Midland Railway did have goods facilities at the Inner London docks, with access via the Tottenham and Hampstead, which was a Great Eastern and Midland Joint Railway, then over Great Eastern lines via Bow, where the Midland Railway also had a presence.

 

[Taunton]

How can a train on the GOBLIN get to Poplar?

St Pancras to the Royal Docks via South Tottenham and the curve south onto the GE at Lea Bridge, thence through Stratford. If you really wanted to go to Poplar (not that I believe boat trains did, as the docks there were principally timber and fruit importers from Europe, rather than deep sea cargo-passenger liners in the Royals), then from Stratford onto the inward GE main, branch towards Fenchurch Street, and the east curve at Limehouse.

The Midland and the GE were long term collaborators, the GE Royal Train to Sandringham used to leave from St Pancras rather than Liverpool Street, to avoid the ceremonial hoo-hah required whenever the Monarch enters the City of London; similar route to South Tottenham, then turn the other way.

 

[Western Lord]

References to boat trains are for trains running to Tilbury Riverside for passengers to embark from Tilbury Landing Stage. P & O and Orient Line ships to Australia sailed from Tilbury, as did some Cunard North Atlantic services. Some ships which sailed to the Royal Docks for cargo handling picked up and dropped off their passengers at Tilbury Landing Stage.

 

[Class15]

St Pancras to the Royal Docks via South Tottenham and the curve south onto the GE at Lea Bridge, thence through Stratford. If you really wanted to go to Poplar (not that I believe boat trains did, as the docks there were principally timber and fruit importers from Europe, rather than deep sea cargo-passenger liners in the Royals), then from Stratford onto the inward GE main, branch towards Fenchurch Street, and the east curve at Limehouse.

The Midland and the GE were long term collaborators, the GE Royal Train to Sandringham used to leave from St Pancras rather than Liverpool Street, to avoid the ceremonial hoo-hah required whenever the Monarch enters the City of London; similar route to South Tottenham, then turn the other way.

The original post said “access to the London docks”. “Access” does not mean boat trains only. It includes freight. Technically obviously there is a way, although pretty complicated as it would have crossed the entire GEML at Stratford which would not have been convenient. I always wondered why there was no south-east curve at Victoria park to allow that kind of move.

 

[Taunton]

There were two separate Midland Railway goods depots on the close approach to Fenchurch Street, with running powers, which would have required their daily goods trains from Cricklewood etc to make the same crossing manoeuvre at Stratford to access them. These lasted to the early 1960s. They were sufficiently large to need their own Midland shunting locomotive. Mint Street on the south of the line had always been Midland, whereas Commercial Road to the north had come with the LT&S takeover. Mint Street was for some reason particularly associated with inwards whisky shipments, presumably from the Midland/North British through Carlisle, as a counterpoint to the better-known beer traffic stored underneath St Pancras.

 

[Magdalia]

If you really wanted to go to Poplar (not that I believe boat trains did, as the docks there were principally timber and fruit importers from Europe, rather than deep sea cargo-passenger liners in the Royals), then from Stratford onto the inward GE main, branch towards Fenchurch Street, and the east curve at Limehouse.

Thanks you explain it better than I could have done.

Some ships which sailed to the Royal Docks for cargo handling picked up and dropped off their passengers at Tilbury Landing Stage.

Thanks this is interesting!

The Union Castle Africa service sailed from the King George V Dock, the British India Steam Navigation Africa service and New Zealand Shipping Panama Canal service sailed from the Royal Albert Dock. The sailings departing from London had boat trains to these Royal Docks, but I have been unable to trace boat trains for sailings arriving at the Royal Docks. I have some evidence that inward New Zealand Shipping services docked at Southampton, but I hadn't considered that inward sailings might call at Tilbury.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I have my Signal diagrams of the area as they were in the 1970s when I was working at St. Pancras (1972-74), and I continued to travel over the line between St. Pancras and Mill Hill almost daily until 1981, and there was no physical track connection between the the Barking to Kentish Town Line and the St. Pancras lines south of Kentish Town since Islip Street Junction was removed at the end of 1966. The journey could only have been accomplished by shunting via Carlton Road Junction.

St.Px - Mill Hill 04. Carlton Road/Kentish Town. November 1976

The layout in this area has changed a lot. After the Kentish Town Barking DMUs were switched to Gospel Oak (1981) the Mortimer Street to Engine Shed Junction curves were removed. Because of the limited space at Carlton Road it was one of the few places that had a Single Slip Facing Point which...

www.flickr.com

St.Px - Mill Hill 03. Camden Road/Kentish Town. November 1976

The Ground Frame at the south end of Kentish Town on the Moorgate Lines was heavily used at this time by the DMUs on the Barking - Kentish Town services. After arrival in the Up Platform the train would shunt to the Down platform for departure via the Ground frame. At this time passenger trains...

www.flickr.com

St.Px - Mill Hill 02. Dock Junction/Cambridge Street November 1976

Traffic onto the Down Carriage Line and on/off Cambridge Street Depot was done by Block Bell/Telephone. During the morning Rush Hour there were usually two occasions when three trains would depart the station at the same time. One to the Down Carriage, One to the Down Main, and one to the Down...

www.flickr.com

St.Px - Mill Hill 01. St. Pancras station area. November 1976

The diagram has many memories for me. My Railway career started back in 1972 at St. Pancras Box as Train recorder/Station Announcer. I have been able to add the Track Circuit numbers from my original diagram. Such a view was to be had over the station area and its approaches (as long as the gas...

www.flickr.com

That's very bizarre as I remember by Dad told a similar story of travelling from St Pancras to Woodgrange Park in the 1970s. Perhaps it was Moorgate, but even then there wouldn't have been a direct train...

 

[Andy R. A.]

That's very bizarre as I remember by Dad told a similar story of travelling from St Pancras to Woodgrange Park in the 1970s. Perhaps it was Moorgate, but even then there wouldn't have been a direct train...

Through travel from St. Pancras to the Barking Line wasn't particularly well timed for connections for most of the day. The one Down train that called at Kentish Town from St. Pancras was the '10 past the hour Luton 'stopper'. The train for Barking left Kentish Town at '10 past the hour, so the train from St. Pancras would drop you there four minutes after the Barking train had departed, leaving a 56 minute wait for the next one (other than Peak times when there were a handful of extra trains). It was the same in the Up direction most of the time. The 'stopper' from Luton called at Kentish Town at '58 past the hour, and the train from Barking arrived at Kentish Town at '03 past the hour, by which time the train for St. Pancras was just pulling into the terminus. If you were travelling to and from the stations north of Kentish Town on the Midland the connections were better timed ? I did a number of trips from Mill Hill to the Barking line over the years, and the connections generally worked very well.
I suppose that as Kentish Town was shown as an Interchange station for the Northern Line Underground, it was considered a better choice of continuing your journey into Central London, as generally people would be going beyond St. Pancras ?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Passenger traffic from India in the 1960s used the Tilbury - St Pancras route for boat trains; a (late) colleague of mine arrived on that route from India to take up a job in London.

I always understood that the link from the east round to Kentish Town (and potentially St P) was severed at the main line end as part of the upgrading and electrification of what became the Thameslink route in the 1980s, leaving services with the option of continuing via one or other of the other curves: the opposite way on the St P line, or to Gospel Oak on the NLL. The latter was deemed the most sensible in terms of passenger links - hence the GOBLIN we all know and love today.