Why did the NYMR not save the line from Pickering To Malton?

[zwk500]

You don't think a large part of the attraction of a national park is the beautiful scenery rather than breathing in the fumes from the latest Toyota SUV ? Here's a page from the Campaign For National Parks

Reducing the impact of roads

National Parks are working and living landscapes and both communities and visitors need to be able to get around them.

www.cnp.org.uk

Public transport cannot hope to replace the private car for more than a minority of journeys in a National Park like the North York Moors.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Public transport cannot hope to replace the private car for more than a minority of journeys in a National Park like the North York Moors.

A tiny, insignificant minority,

You don't think a large part of the attraction of a national park is the beautiful scenery rather than breathing in the fumes from the latest Toyota SUV ? Here's a page from the Campaign For National Parks

Reducing the impact of roads

National Parks are working and living landscapes and both communities and visitors need to be able to get around them.

www.cnp.org.uk

You’re presenting the website of a single issue campaign group to back up your claim that national parks should be the first places where car use is tackled? Oh dear.

 

[Pinza-C55]

A tiny, insignificant minority,


You’re presenting the website of a single issue campaign group to back up your claim that national parks should be the first places where car use is tackled? Oh dear.

I didn't say "I" wanted to reduce car use in the National Parks, I said the government wanted to reduce car use and that the National Parks would be a good place for (generic) "you" to start. For myself I don't care as I neither drive nor cycle so I have no vested interest.
The Campaign site was easy to link to, the National Parks policy is a PDF but this may help you.
National Park Authorities have powers to make Traffic Regulation Orders (TROs) under section 22BB and 22BC of the Road Traffic Regulation Act (RTRA) 1984. These powers were introduced by Section 72 of the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act (NERCA) 2006 and came into force on 1 October 2007.
I fear this argument will go on forever so I will leave it to you to have the last word.

 

[ShadowKnight]

I'm not disputing you may have read that but it sounds like a fantasy. Why would GBR want to take over a route that runs through the middle of nowhere?

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/ryedale/10102415.petition-calls-for-ryedale-rail-link-to-reopen/

I think that looking at the NYMR comment in an article like this. (And others found on the NYMR Wikipedia page) suggests that they think having a full rail link from Whitby to york woud negatively impact the NYMRs operation, and I infer that to be end to end national rail services between Whitby and York would hit their bottom line.

Particularly as there is already a bus from Whitby to york, a rail service may serve useful if wanting to benefit of tourists in York whom would visit the NYMR if it were more convenient to access than bus

 

[billio]

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/ryedale/10102415.petition-calls-for-ryedale-rail-link-to-reopen/

...

Particularly as there is already a bus from Whitby to york, a rail service may serve useful if wanting to benefit of tourists in York whom would visit the NYMR if it were more convenient to access than bus

This bus service, the Coastliner 840, is under threat. If it does cease then I would expect some alternative service would be introduced connecting Malton with Pickering and Thornton-le-Dale. Integration of such a bus service with the trains at Malton would be helpful. The bus station is almost next to the train station.

 

[scarby]

Was another possible factor that the standalone NYMR rails (had they actually still been in place, weren't they already quite quickly lifted?) effectively still would have ended at the less than touristy Rillington Junction, and 1960s/1970s era BR would, most likely, have frowned upon any heritage railway running trains onwards along the Scarborough->York line on shared tracks into Malton.

Given the original question in this thread, this surely also has to be a critical factor. As you say, the chances of BR allowing a heritage operation to run into Malton, even using the bay platform, in the 1970s and 1980s would have surely been non-existent. While passenger traffic between Scarborough and York was sparser than today in the winter months, there was still a substantial amount of holiday traffic on summer Saturdays and even some on weekdays at the height of summer. So hypothetically NYMR services would have had to terminate at Marishes Road, where there is basically nothing.

 

[trebor79]

Public transport cannot hope to replace the private car for more than a minority of journeys in a National Park like the North York Moors.

I disagree. If you go to national parks in America, you will find big car parks that you park in and then get park buses to take you to wherever. You aren't allowed/there aren't roads to just drive around wherever like in the UK. Admittedly our national parks have towns and villages within them which the likes of Yosemite tend not to, so it's a bit different. But there's no reason why a similar model could not be adopted with "park and ride" for tourists here.

 

[zwk500]

I disagree. If you go to national parks in America, you will find big car parks that you park in and then get park buses to take you to wherever. You aren't allowed/there aren't roads to just drive around wherever like in the UK. Admittedly our national parks have towns and villages within them which the likes of Yosemite tend not to, so it's a bit different. But there's no reason why a similar model could not be adopted with "park and ride" for tourists here.

I disagree. The distances involved in UK parks and the visitor numbers mean people will just drive direct to the places they want to visit. It won't be feasible for anything other than the most popular destinations to run buses from Park and Rides. Also many roads in the UK National Parks are very badly suited to buses and coaches.
It's also a question of logistics - e.g. for Snowdon and Scafell Pike, where do you run the buses from? They're not near any large town or reasonable railhead, and if people are driving into the park anyway they'll keep going an extra 10 minutes to get to the actual car park rather than stop on the edge and transfer to a bus.

 

[trebor79]

I disagree. The distances involved in UK parks and the visitor numbers mean people will just drive direct to the places they want to visit. It won't be feasible for anything other than the most popular destinations to run buses from Park and Rides. Also many roads in the UK National Parks are very badly suited to buses and coaches.
It's also a question of logistics - e.g. for Snowdon and Scafell Pike, where do you run the buses from? They're not near any large town or reasonable railhead, and if people are driving into the park anyway they'll keep going an extra 10 minutes to get to the actual car park rather than stop on the edge and transfer to a bus.

Basically in the US there is one large car park and you get the bus from there.
Of course if in the UK we put a car park right at the bottom of Scafell Pike, people are going to drive to it and park there. With the US model you'd put a large P&R site somewhere like Penrith, Carlisle and maybe somewhere near Windermere.
Of course it'll never happen, but if the car obsessed US can do it I don't see why we can't.

 

[RT4038]

Of course it'll never happen, but if the car obsessed US can do it I don't see why we can't.

Because the National Parks in the US don't have towns and villages with lots of people in them, and a long history of car access to those places.

 

[BoroAndy]

Because the National Parks in the US don't have towns and villages with lots of people in them, and a long history of car access to those places.

One eastbound ane one westbound train an hour at Malton, with 4/5 Extras a day. Hardly a case of no paths available for trains from Pickering. Unless of course, Northern actually start their hourly York to Scarborough service.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

One eastbound ane one westbound train an hour at Malton, with 4/5 Extras a day. Hardly a case of no paths available for trains from Pickering.

That's as maybe now, but, as discussed upthread, doubt that 1960s/1970s era BR would have wanted a heritage railway outfit to have access to their rails, and, if successful, show up the BR management who had withdrawn the Whitby -> Pickering -> Malton service.

Also, hadn't the six miles of track from Pickering to Rillington Junction been lifted with the usual undue haste by c. 1966 already? Don't think the NYMR was founded until the following year and it then took them some time to get established.

 

[30907]

That's as maybe now, but, as discussed upthread, doubt that 1960s/1970s era BR would have wanted a heritage railway outfit to have access to their rails, and, if successful, show up the BR management who had withdrawn the Whitby -> Pickering -> Malton service.

And even if they had been prepared to allow it, the costs to the NYMR would have been enormous:
Maintain and staff Rillington Jn box.
Maintain Malton bay and a run-round
Main-line standard locos, stock and staff.
On top of the basic cost of the service which competed with the local bus.

 

[RT4038]

That's as maybe now, but, as discussed upthread, doubt that 1960s/1970s era BR would have wanted a heritage railway outfit to have access to their rails, and, if successful, show up the BR management who had withdrawn the Whitby -> Pickering -> Malton service.

Also, hadn't the six miles of track from Pickering to Rillington Junction been lifted with the usual undue haste by c. 1966 already? Don't think the NYMR was founded until the following year and it then took them some time to get established.

Aside from the one example in the UK (at the northern end of the NYMR on a minor branch line, not achieved until 2007), no preserved line has run regular services onto BR/NR metals . It was simply unthinkable in 1960s and 70s, and the NYMR would not have had the resources to attempt it. It would not have shown up BR management simply because it would never have happened.

There was no undue haste in lifting the Pickering-Rillington line - the local council wanted away with the level crossings in Pickering asap. There was no chance of trains coming back to Pickering from the south, either then or now.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There was no chance of trains coming back to Pickering from the south, either then or now.

Indeed. Think we can close the thread now!

 

[2392]

Indeed the Pickering New Bridge Quarry to Rillington section survived for about a year after the Pickering-Grosmont section closed. It was operated along the lines of 3 times a week or as required, that is until the Quarry went over to road haulage for the stone. Also as I've mentioned on both this and the other thread about the closed Pickering Rillington section. Back in the late sixties early seventies the NYMR would have ended in a field beside the York Scarborough line, as Rillington station had closed pre WW2 and the platforms were removed. It might have worked out had Rillington survived and had a separate platforms on the Whitby line as pre Grosmont with it's three platforms P1 on the Esk Valley with P2-3 and new NYMR installed P4 for the Moors operations.

 

[Class08Shunter]

That's as maybe now, but, as discussed upthread, doubt that 1960s/1970s era BR would have wanted a heritage railway outfit to have access to their rails, and, if successful, show up the BR management who had withdrawn the Whitby -> Pickering -> Malton service.

Also, hadn't the six miles of track from Pickering to Rillington Junction been lifted with the usual undue haste by c. 1966 already? Don't think the NYMR was founded until the following year and it then took them some time to get established.

Track had been lifted 1969-1970.

 

[Falcon1200]

Aside from the one example in the UK (at the northern end of the NYMR on a minor branch line, not achieved until 2007), no preserved line has run regular services onto BR/NR metals .

The Dart Valley Railway, now the South Devon Railway, did for a while run into Totnes main line station, but not any more! The now have instead their own separate station across the river.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Track had been lifted 1969-1970.

Had been lifted by 1969-70 or was lifted in 1969-70? Think I'd be right in saying that the last official freight / non-passenger working on the line to the South of Pickering was mid 1966.

 

[Class08Shunter]

Had been lifted by 1969-70 or was lifted in 1969-70? Think I'd be right in saying that the last official freight / non-passenger working South of Pickering was mid 1966.

Track had been lifted in 1969-1970.

 

[Class08Shunter]

And even if they had been prepared to allow it, the costs to the NYMR would have been enormous:
Maintain and staff Rillington Jn box.
Maintain Malton bay and a run-round
Main-line standard locos, stock and staff.
On top of the basic cost of the service which competed with the local bus.

The NYMR definitely wouldn't have to maintain the bay platform but would have to pay to alter the track layout. Rillington Signal Box wouldn't be maintained or staffed by the NYMR as it is on the national network. BR/NR would have to maintain it. The signal box could close and be replaced with a ground frame just like at Grosmont.

 

[Harvester]

Had been lifted by 1969-70 or was lifted in 1969-70? Think I'd be right in saying that the last official freight / non-passenger working on the line to the South of Pickering was mid 1966.

The last freight working was on 1/7/1966. If the track was lifted by 1969 or even 1970, the NYMR would then have been in its infancy, and desperate for funds to secure the Grosmont-Goathland section. South of Pickering was not contemplated back then.

 

[JKF]

I disagree. If you go to national parks in America, you will find big car parks that you park in and then get park buses to take you to wherever. You aren't allowed/there aren't roads to just drive around wherever like in the UK. Admittedly our national parks have towns and villages within them which the likes of Yosemite tend not to, so it's a bit different. But there's no reason why a similar model could not be adopted with "park and ride" for tourists here.

That‘s exactly what they do for Stonehenge these days. Not a national park, but an example of the same thing in practice. Free parking at the visitor centre, pay for buses up to the stones (or walk up if you want)

 

[zwk500]

That‘s exactly what they do for Stonehenge these days. Not a national park, but an example of the same thing in practice. Free parking at the visitor centre, pay for buses up to the stones (or walk up if you want)

For a single, very popular site this method is feasible, France has done the same at Mont-St-Michel. However in a national park where people will be aiming for a multiplicity of different places, routes and attractions, it just economically doesn't stack up to concentrate all traffic on a central site and then bus people around.

 

[trebor79]

For a single, very popular site this method is feasible, France has done the same at Mont-St-Michel. However in a national park where people will be aiming for a multiplicity of different places, routes and attractions, it just economically doesn't stack up to concentrate all traffic on a central site and then bus people around.

It's not about economics, it's about not having a national park full of traffic.

 

[zwk500]

It's not about economics, it's about not having a national park full of traffic.

So who's paying for the bus? Somebody has to, and I'd argue there are better things the public purse could be put behind.

 

[trebor79]

So who's paying for the bus? Somebody has to, and I'd argue there are better things the public purse could be put behind.

People visiting the national park of course!

 

[zwk500]

People visiting the national park of course!

I'm very confused how the economic viability of the proposal is not relevant if the intent is to fund them from the direct fare revenue. Or are you proposing a separate surcharge on Hotels and Restaurants or something?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just to point out, before this thread veers off onto a discussion about public transport provision in various National Parks and heritage sites around the world, that the entirety of the section of former railway line between Pickering and Rillington Junction was some way outside of the boundary of the North York Moors National Park.

 

[D6968]

The Dart Valley Railway, now the South Devon Railway, did for a while run into Totnes main line station, but not any more! The now have instead their own separate station across the river.

How long did that last for though?!
That one’s definitely for another thread!