Why did the SRA change their minds on St Pancras to Leeds?

[Bayum]

Why did the SRA allow the order for 9 car 222s to take place, in the knowledge that they would be run to Leeds?

As I understand it, they later backtracked; why?

 

[yorkie]

Why did the SRA allow the order for 9 car 222s to take place, in the knowledge that they would be run to Leeds?

As I understand it, they later backtracked; why?

I think a bit of context and background info is needed here! Many people will be unaware of what was proposed!

Basically as you say the SRA originally planned for there to be a frequent (presumably hourly) London St Pancras - Leeds service, but that didn't happen. It's not clear to me whether the trains were originally intended to be routed via Derby or Nottingham.

Instead, several years later, it was finally decided to run a separate Nottingham-Leeds service, which ran as an extension of the then relatively newly introduced Sheffield-Leeds fast Barnsley service.

I think that having this as a separate service (most of the time - there are, of course, some through trains) makes more sense, as the loadings between Nottingham, Sheffield and Leeds are typically going to be lower than those closer to London.

As for why they "backtracked", I assume it's because they ran out of money?

 

[43074]

The hourly London St P - Leeds service was proposed by the SRA in the East Midlands RUS (Route Utilisation Strategy) 2003, and MML ordered the Meridians in late 2002 on the assumption that this would materialise. It was to have run via Nottingham, and as I understand it, was to have been an extension of the London to Nottingham fast services. Trains would have been formed of the 9-car Meridians ordered for the service.

I think they ''backtracked'' because of lack of paths for the service in the Leeds area, originally? It was only introduced in December 2008 because of radical timetable changes elsewhere. It should be understood however that Midland Mainline, the TOC at the time, were very keen for the service to happen, if nothing else to compete with the M1 Motorway.

 

[edwin_m]

Presumably it would have used the path via Barnsley later used by the Northern service, since MML were quite keen on Barnsley and extended a few semi-fasts there over the years.

It's hard to see how it could have been cost-effective with 8-car Meridians, as in my (occasional) experience even the 2-car 158 has many seats available in the off-peak. MML were probably after a slice of the Leeds to London market but they would have been very much slower than GNER (as it was at the time) so this would have been unlikely unless they offered very low fares.
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Presumably MML were planning to use the path via Barnsley now occupied by the Northern service - there weren't and still aren't any paths available on the faster route through Moorthorpe. MML were quite keen on the Barnsley market having extended various semi-fasts there.

Hard to see how this would have made sense to be honest. In my occasional experience the 2-car 158 always has seats available in the off-peak, and the Meridian wouldn't have been much faster as the line speeds are mostly low. No doubt MML were after a slice of the Leeds-London market, but with a much slower journey they wouldn't have got this except by offering very low fares.

I've an idea the HSTs later used on the Manchester service were originally acquired in connection with Leeds - the codename "Project Rio" for this service refers to Rio Ferdinand who transferred from Leeds United to Manchester United. However I can't remember how this fits with buying the Meridians at about the same time. Possibly the HSTs were to allow the Meridians to be freed up from another route.

 

[Haydn1971]

It would be nice to have some extra peak express services between Sheffield and Leeds, there's demand at peak but as suggested above, not in the day... From a personal viewpoint, calling at Meadowhall on the way would be really handy, but the platforms are only about 100m long, so a five car 222 wouldn't fit without SDO or a platform extension. Also platform space at Leeds could be an issue too.

 

[43074]

I've an idea the HSTs later used on the Manchester service were originally acquired in connection with Leeds - the codename "Project Rio" for this service refers to Rio Ferdinand who transferred from Leeds United to Manchester United. However I can't remember how this fits with buying the Meridians at about the same time. Possibly the HSTs were to allow the Meridians to be freed up from another route.

I thought the Leeds proposal and Project Rio were unrelated: MML provided the Manchester service on behalf of the SRA to provide an alternative route between Manchester and London when the WCML was blocked. The HSTs were aquired for those services because at the time that was the only 125mph stock avaliable, recently displaced by Voyagers. The HSTs were to be handed back to their owners in September 2004, which happened bar 43069, 43089, 43159 and 43196 which continued with MML until 2005.

The 222s were ordered in November 2002, the 4 cars to replace the Turbostars (which had always been on the cards) and the 9-cars for the Leeds service. The additional traincrew recruited for Manchester were used to free up other staff members to train on the 222s though.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Part of the issue was the running away of costs in the latter days of the SRA - with many TOC's being baled out with new cost contracts - and an edict from the DfT to get a grip on things - though in reality much of the financial leakage was due to West Coast and so on. (plus the doubling of track access charges by the ORR at the time - or just before - which became a "pass through" from the SRA)

Thins like freight grants were annulled at the time for the same reasons. Partly led to the demise of the SRA....