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Why do ferry services not seem to work in the UK?

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AlastairFraser

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Highly unlikely. To go at 30 knots burns 2-3 times as much fuel as 20 knots, which is why the two Stena Superfast ferries usually only pootle around at 20 knots.

If you want to travel quickly you'd fly.
Maybe electric ferries powered by cheap renewables will help solve this issue.

If you could wave a magic wand, where would you put a passenger ferry, and car ferry?

Up here, passenger at least, Fleetwood and Barrow (an argument for a car ferry?). Not sure but if memory served wasn't there once a hovercraft service between Southport and Lytham? Passenger ferry would be out as the tide almost never reaches the shore so boats can't dock.
Not convinced that it would be fast enough to make it work. Hovertravel does Southsea to Ryde in 10 mins for 4.5 miles, Barrow would be more like 45 mins at best, likely slower because it would have to take cars to be viable.
Building the Morecambe Bay barrage makes more sense here.

However, Southport - St Annes - Blackpool definitely has potential as a seasonal service for the Summer and the Illuminations, especially with a shuttle bus from a Merseyrail station near Southport to the terminal. There's a lot of rail passengers from the Liverpool direction heading towards Blackpool a lot of the year, and it could be more convenient then travelling into Lime St for those in Sefton/north Liverpool suburbs/parts of Knowsley (as well as better for the Pleasure Beach and that end of Blackpool than North station). Also would be useful for the many seasonal workers who are in Blackpool for the summer and need somewhere else cheaper to rent.
 
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BayPaul

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Interesting. Do you think a smaller fast ferry would work to compensate for the issues at Heysham, plus the slow sailing times? Maybe a twice daily daytime service, and then one service at night time.
The Birkenhead - Belfast route solves this issue nicely. A very comfortable overnight ferry means that the slower speed isn't an issue.

Fast ferries are very limited in their ability to carry freight, which is what pays the bills on cross channel ferries. A large fast ferry can take around 1000 tonnes - only around 30 trucks. Compare this to several hundred trucks on a typical modern ropax ferry. As others mentioned, the fuel burn is also an issue.
 

DelW

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Has there ever been a vehicle ferry across the Bristol Channel between South Wales and the south-western peninsula?
Looking at 1950s OS maps (courtesy of NLS), the only vehicle ferry shown across the Severn is the well known one from Aust to Beachley, roughly on the line of the original Severn Bridge. That of course closed when the bridge was opened. There's nothing shown anywhere further west.
 

BayPaul

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Has there ever been a vehicle ferry across the Bristol Channel between South Wales and the south-western peninsula?
When I worked at Taunton Deane MSA I noticed a large proportion of Welsh accents among holidaymakers, and having to drive inland to Bristol to access the M5 would seem to me to be a bit of a pain. Certainly in the years before the M5 and the Severn Bridge(s) were completed, a ferry from Cardiff or Swansea to Barnstaple/Ilfracombe or the Bude area would have saved many hours of bumper-to-bumper traffic on the A38. Though I suppose the lack of quality roads in North Devon and Cornwall would create problems too. Particularly as a ferry would dump c.200 cars onto those roads at once, as opposed to the A30 and A38 which distribute the traffic more evenly... and only those heading to specific resort towns would need to use a particular stretch of windy A and B road.
No, there never has been a car ferry from Wales - Somerset or Devon.
The extreme tidal range would be a big challenge for any ferry large enough to make the route economic - a huge linkspan (ramp from ferry to shore) would be needed, that would be tricky to accommodate in the small ports on the Devon coast.
Ilfracombe is the only 'deep water' port in a sensible range of Wales - it used to have a regular passenger paddle steamer route from Swansea - and it really isn't suitable for ro-ro, especially given the road network.
There has been a recent attempt to establish a fast passenger ferry route, using ex-Isle of Wight vessels, but it didn't get as far as the first crossing.
 

AndrewE

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on the topic of ferries, (but rather stretching the link) I just read "The Orkney Ferries making life difficult for disabled people" on BBC Scottish news. Sorry, I can't get anything to cut and paste at all (I think my VPN leads them to think I'm not in the UK so it puts me on BBC.com and blocks lots of stuff) restart has worked: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cr7r542dy3xo It ends by saying
Orkney Islands Council, the smallest in the country, would be responsible for funding the replacement of the fleet... 9 ferries need to be replaced...
[Transport Scotland] was committed to supporting the council to develop a robust business case for replacing the ferries.
Why are people obsessed with business cases? If somewhere needs a ferry then the money has to be found (otherwise you are just putting a gun to people's heads and telling them to leave) and whether it is Scotland or UK taxes doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things...
 
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61653 HTAFC

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No, there never has been a car ferry from Wales - Somerset or Devon.
The extreme tidal range would be a big challenge for any ferry large enough to make the route economic - a huge linkspan (ramp from ferry to shore) would be needed, that would be tricky to accommodate in the small ports on the Devon coast.
Ilfracombe is the only 'deep water' port in a sensible range of Wales - it used to have a regular passenger paddle steamer route from Swansea - and it really isn't suitable for ro-ro, especially given the road network.
There has been a recent attempt to establish a fast passenger ferry route, using ex-Isle of Wight vessels, but it didn't get as far as the first crossing.
Thanks for the detailed answer. I suppose the ideal ports on the Engish side (for onward journeys) would be Plymouth (or Falmouth)... which are both unfortunately on the wrong side of the peninsula! If there was a suitable port in North Devon I'd expect that whichever town it was in would have grown around it and gained the appropriate road and rail connections... and ended up rivalling Fishguard for the Irish traffic and Plymouth/Bristol for the transatlantic routes. But I'm getting into alternative history or fantasy territory there!
 

John Luxton

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P. A. Campbell - 'White Funnel' fleet - ran passengers services (but not for cars) across the Bristol Channel up to 1979. Sailings from Penarth / Barry to Ilfracombe, Watchet, Clevedon etc. M.V. 'Balmoral' is preserved, offering occasional trips.
BALMORAL has been out of service since 2016 the support group are keeping her maintained and she has recently been dry docked.

WAVERLEY has had a short but successful season on the Bristol Channel earlier this year.
 

The exile

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If you could wave a magic wand, where would you put a passenger ferry, and car ferry?

Up here, passenger at least, Fleetwood and Barrow (an argument for a car ferry?). Not sure but if memory served wasn't there once a hovercraft service between Southport and Lytham? Passenger ferry would be out as the tide almost never reaches the shore so boats can't dock.
Looking at much shorter inland crossings, I wonder if “self-drive” chain ferries are a practical idea for river crossings. Guess there are probably too many H&S implications.
 

Shimbleshanks

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Believe you're right. Operated only from May 1973 to September 1973, or thereabouts, so was fairly short-lived. Apparently it only ever ran at around half capacity.

View attachment 163545
(Pic of the timetable for the one-time Hovertravel service between Southport and Squires Gate (Blackpool)).
I think there was a similar short-lived hovercraft service from Liverpool to Rhyl, back in the 1960s or 1970s. Going further back in time, steamers were one of the main ways of getting between Merseyside and North Wales.
 

Ediswan

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Looking at much shorter inland crossings, I wonder if “self-drive” chain ferries are a practical idea for river crossings. Guess there are probably too many H&S implications.
Came across one of these while cycling in France a few years ago. It worked, no drama.
 

BayPaul

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Can’t watch the video at present - does it explain how you get the ferry back if you (or it!) are on the wrong side?
And you've found the biggest problem!

Also passenger vessels need to be crewed, though a chain ferry can technically get around that rule as they are never underway.
 

dazzler

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Can’t watch the video at present - does it explain how you get the ferry back if you (or it!) are on the wrong side?
If it is anything like the ones I have seen in the Netherlands, there is a hand crank on either side of the river and one at either end of the ferry. There is presumably some sort of slip clutch arrangement at each crank as turning the cranks on either bank draws the ferry towards the appropriate bank. Turning the crank on the end of the ferry closest to the direction you wish to travel will pull the ferry across the water.

A quick search of YouTube has pulled up the following video of one in action.

 

philthetube

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Fleetwood - Knott End again, you're unlikely to know of it unless you specifically search for it as despite being funded by Lancashire County Council, the council won't put it on Traveline.
probably because there are long gaps in service at low tide
Seems like they could do with one of the duckmarine style vehicles that currently operates tours in Windsor and now in Liverpool so then it can operate on land and water. People can't use the ferry for jobs or education or make any meaningful plans. 'I'm sorry, I can't come and visit you today, the tides out so I can't get there till late on'.
not sure if one of these would work, bearing in mind the sinking sand in the area, a hovercraft would be great though.
 

Basil Jet

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Can’t watch the video at present - does it explain how you get the ferry back if you (or it!) are on the wrong side?
A normal chain ferry has a fairly taut chain (or chains) across the river wrapped around a roller under the boat, so that rolling the roller moves the boat.

The self-powered chain ferry has a long chain from one bank to one side of the boat, and a separate long chain from the other bank to the other side of the boat. Turning the crank on the bank causes the near chain to come to you while the crank on the near side of the boat spins freely until it has fed you all the chain, at which point further cranking pulls the boat. Similarly turning one of the cranks on the boat causes the crank on the bank to spin freely until it has fed you all the chain, at which point further cranking pulls the boat.
 

The exile

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A normal chain ferry has a fairly taut chain (or chains) across the river wrapped around a roller under the boat, so that rolling the roller moves the boat.

The self-powered chain ferry has a long chain from one bank to one side of the boat, and a separate long chain from the other bank to the other side of the boat. Turning the crank on the bank causes the near chain to come to you while the crank on the near side of the boat spins freely until it has fed you all the chain, at which point further cranking pulls the boat. Similarly turning one of the cranks on the boat causes the crank on the bank to spin freely until it has fed you all the chain, at which point further cranking pulls the boat.
The boat effectively being an oversized link in the chain - got it. Sounds like a useful solution for quite a lot of annoying long bridgeless sections - provided it can be made reasonably vandal-proof.
 

AndrewE

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The boat effectively being an oversized link in the chain - got it. Sounds like a useful solution for quite a lot of annoying long bridgeless sections - provided it can be made reasonably vandal-proof.
I don't think this is correct. If the boat was a link in the chain it couldn't pull itself along as you can't drive the bank pulley from the ferry. I think there will be a continuous loop of chain with one length just running between the 2 banks through the driven bank pulleys, with the boat on the other and able to pull itself either way along that length of the chain. All including the ferry ones are geared so that they are effectively braked (or freewheel when not pulling) when not being turned. The ferry has 2 windlasses to pull it along the chain so that you can pull it towards either side.
If Basil Jet is right where does the spare wound in chain go? Into a big pit under the crank handle? into the well of the boat? I reckon it proabbly doesn't accumulate anywhere, just goes round the pulley and back out through the water.
 

The exile

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I don't think this is correct. If the boat was a link in the chain it couldn't pull itself along as you can't drive the bank pulley from the ferry. I think there will be a continuous loop of chain with one length just running between the 2 banks through the driven bank pulleys, with the boat on the other and able to pull itself either way along that length of the chain. All including the ferry ones are geared so that they are effectively braked (or freewheel when not pulling) when not being turned. The ferry has 2 windlasses to pull it along the chain so that you can pull it towards either side.
If Basil Jet is right where does the spare wound in chain go? Into a big pit under the crank handle? into the well of the boat? I reckon it proabbly doesn't accumulate anywhere, just goes round the pulley and back out through the water.
True
 

Ediswan

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I don't think this is correct. If the boat was a link in the chain it couldn't pull itself along as you can't drive the bank pulley from the ferry. I think there will be a continuous loop of chain with one length just running between the 2 banks through the driven bank pulleys, with the boat on the other and able to pull itself either way along that length of the chain. All including the ferry ones are geared so that they are effectively braked (or freewheel when not pulling) when not being turned. The ferry has 2 windlasses to pull it along the chain so that you can pull it towards either side.
Maybe there is more than one chain. First, the conventional fixed chain running through the cranks on the ferry. Second, a chain from each end of the ferry running to the crank on the adjacent bank.
 

edwin_m

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I don't think this is correct. If the boat was a link in the chain it couldn't pull itself along as you can't drive the bank pulley from the ferry. I think there will be a continuous loop of chain with one length just running between the 2 banks through the driven bank pulleys, with the boat on the other and able to pull itself either way along that length of the chain. All including the ferry ones are geared so that they are effectively braked (or freewheel when not pulling) when not being turned. The ferry has 2 windlasses to pull it along the chain so that you can pull it towards either side.
If Basil Jet is right where does the spare wound in chain go? Into a big pit under the crank handle? into the well of the boat? I reckon it proabbly doesn't accumulate anywhere, just goes round the pulley and back out through the water.
I think this is the gist of it. When one of the handles on thebank is being turned it engages with the chain loop and pulls the boat towards that handle. Otherwise it de-clutches.

The handle on the boat then needs to operate on both parts of the chain loop, in the same direction, as with the handles on the bank declutched pulling one side would just move the chain not the boat. When the on-board handle isn't being turned, it must de-clutch one chain drive and brake the other so the handles on the banks are able to pull the boat.
 

Basil Jet

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I don't know why everyone is making such hard work of this. There are spools on the banks and spools on each side of the boat. The cranks are directly geared to the spools, no ratchets or clever stuff. A chain as long as the river is wide connects the spool on one bank to the spool on one side of the boat. A second similar chain does the other side. When you crank any spool it pulls the chain off its partner spool until it snaps taut and then pulls the boat towards you, or you towards the bank if you are on the boat.
 

Tetchytyke

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"If you've got time to spare ... Go by air"

Boarding procedures slow down short air journeys
If you think boarding an aircraft is slow you should try boarding a RoRo passenger ferry in a vehicle.

An ATR72 does the journey from the Isle of Man to Liverpool in 25 minutes, compared to 2hr45 on the fast cat. There’s your reason why ferries are not used so much anymore.
 

AlastairFraser

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If you think boarding an aircraft is slow you should try boarding a RoRo passenger ferry in a vehicle.

An ATR72 does the journey from the Isle of Man to Liverpool in 25 minutes, compared to 2hr45 on the fast cat. There’s your reason why ferries are not used so much anymore.
See, I think that's partly a benefit with the Isle of Man airport though. On the return journey, you practically need an hour for check in, and then when you arrive on the island, isn't it about half an hour's drive to Douglas? It's still about an hour slower overall for foot passengers, but not too bad.
 

Djgr

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Be prepared, this is a longer post but I am interested in peoples thoughts.
In the UK, we are blessed to have so many rivers and bodies of water, yet for some reason the UK rarely seems to make ferry services work. Other countries seem to manage to get more ferry routes, operating more frequently. In the UK, they seem to be few and far between, and where they do exist, they are poorly promoted. Smaller independent companies relying on word of mouth as they don't want to do anything to promote the service themselves (Ie Barmouth Ferry). Bigger companies seem to mostly only care about tourists. Organisations who input data to Traveline (whether that be Traveline Cymru or local authorities) almost always seem to refuse to put ferries into travel databases despite them being a form of public transport. It's all a bit backwards and almost no one, including the ferry operators, seems to see ferries as a form of public transport, getting people from A-B.

London probably the most developed ferry service in the form of Thames Clippers but the service is generally quite slow as the services seem to stop at every pier along the way, they can be unreliable, the prices are also quite high with a number of journeys being cheaper on the tube. They do seem popular though I think this is in large part due to the extortionate 'tour boat' prices so people clicked onto the Clipper. There's a few other issues at Clipper but anyway, despite all of that, they still have a lot of passengers and no one is going in there to compete and/or provide an alternative service.
  • Liverpool of course has the famous ferry cross the Mersey but if it wasn't for the Beetles bringing in the tourists, I doubt this ferry would still exist. It's so unloved and the service hasn't innovated for years. So much potential up and down the Mersey for more piers and get more regular travellers. There's a stadium being built that will hold 50,000 people and yet it has no pier so that event goers can get the ferry to/from the event
  • Cardiff has 2 water taxis (plus 1 tour which offers short hops), none advertised very well online under the companies own banners and Traveline Cymru refuse to put them on the database.
  • Manchester has had various iterations of boat services, TFGM never put them on the Traveline database and the companies themselves were pretty poor with advertising.
  • I bet you didn't know about the Thelwall or Little Hulme ferries? Most people don't because they aren't advertised by the company (who only operate them due to old laws) and no one will put them on Traveline.
  • Bristol has a great water taxi which is on Traveline but the frequency and operating hours are really poor so only work really if you are doing a loop.
  • Isle of Wight ferries despite 3 companies, there is very little actual competition and each one having it's own, rather large, unique point (IE Redfunnel/Jet being to Southampton, Wightlink being mostly Portsmouth. Hovertravel having the tourist/hype of it being a hovercraft). It's often said by Islanders that there is a cartel going on here because everyone sticks to their lane and no one tries to be the best, just least worst.
  • We have lost the Tilbury-Gravesend ferry. Nearly lost the Hythe ferry too a few times, both quite high profile ferries in their own rights.
  • The new Isle of Scilly ferry got the boat built and was selling tickets then they pulled the plug last minute (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ck5gkxg700jo).
  • Endless proposals have been made for a ferry on the River Seven, none have yet materialised.
You get the idea, lots of issues around lack of competition on busy routes, some ferries struggling in general, some ferries not known on any journey planning site, they only exist if you do intense searching, and then, who knows if the website is upto date?

It just seems like the ferry companies just aren't bothered and just plod along not even attempting to get people onboard. Certainly a clear lack of wanting to be public transport, more a tourist attraction (but they don't even advertise that well), most local authorities don't put ferries onto Traveline so fewer people know about them. I know the geography and demographics may be a little different but why can't we have great ferry services like some other places in other countries. Why is there such a lack of care in the UK for ferries? Interested in thoughts below, and is there anything that you think could be done to improve the situation?
Beetles?

I'm pleased to hear that, I suppose I haven't looked at a proper timetable, or been there that time of day!
It's a very different world to several decades ago, with thousands of tourists to support.

There are several freight only routes from Heysham. Seatruck operate Heysham-Warrenpoint and Heysham-Dublin, and Stena operate Heysham-Belfast.

I'm surprised that there isn't a passenger ferry from Heysham to Belfast given that Cairnryan is such an awful place to get to from England. But there are length and draft restrictions at Heysham which may have an impact, as the Isle of Man Steam Packet have discovered with the Manxman.
Probably Birkenhead is better situated and connected for most people than Heysham

I think there was a similar short-lived hovercraft service from Liverpool to Rhyl, back in the 1960s or 1970s. Going further back in time, steamers were one of the main ways of getting between Merseyside and North Wales.
The hovercraft service ran for one season from Moreton to Rhyl in 1962. It was scuppered when damaged by storms.
 
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JGurney

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If it is anything like the ones I have seen in the Netherlands, there is a hand crank on either side of the river and one at either end of the ferry. There is presumably some sort of slip clutch arrangement at each crank as turning the cranks on either bank draws the ferry towards the appropriate bank. Turning the crank on the end of the ferry closest to the direction you wish to travel will pull the ferry across the water.

A quick search of YouTube has pulled up the following video of one in action.

Clearly that is crossing a navigable waterway, so a bridge would have to be high enough to allow boats to pass below, or a swing bridge used. Both would cost more than a level bridge.
I suspect that the ferry infrastructure shown would cost more to install and maintain than a basic bridge which did not need to allow headroom for boats.
I wonder if there might also be an issue of the bankside not being able to support the weight of the ends of a bridge without a risk of subsidence, while the ferry infrastructure is probably significantly lighter, especially as the ferry itself floats.

Clearly these ferries do work in the Netherlands, so presumably misuse is rare or inconsequential. I have a nasty suspicion that here there would be vandalism and problems with either children doing dangerous things around them (climbing on them, swimming around them) or louts moving them to midstream to obstruct boaters.
 

AHBD

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There are several freight only routes from Heysham. Seatruck operate Heysham-Warrenpoint and Heysham-Dublin, and Stena operate Heysham-Belfast.

I'm surprised that there isn't a passenger ferry from Heysham to Belfast given that Cairnryan is such an awful place to get to from England. But there are length and draft restrictions at Heysham which may have an impact, as the Isle of Man Steam Packet have discovered with the Manxman.
Taking more than 12 passengers would mean the ships would be required to have more crew according to maritine rules I think, so perhaps to expensive to go above 12
 
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