Would have thought that airplanes use significantly much more fuel than a boat or ferry, in order to get the plane in the air and so move what needs to be moved, whether it's people or cargo. It's not the only factor, obviously, but air freight costs are invariably much more expensive than sea freight to reflect the extra fuel cost.
In Ireland the M11 motorway from Dublin now extends beyond Enniscorthy, with a decent road thence to Rosslare. I can see Irish Ferries chopping their Dublin - Cherbourg service back to Rosslare. Rivals Stena Line and Brittany Ferries now only operate from Rosslare to Cherbourg. A Dublin to Fishguard route is not going to be competitive, whilst on the Welsh side the road to the M4 is less than than ideal.
Can you give any examples? I'm a massive ferry fan, but I am struggling to think of any, other than Ireland - France routes, which have increased due to Brexit freight issues
It's an interesting question. There doesn't seem an easy answer... Stena publish an environmental report, and as a crude average, their ships produce about 0.5 tonnes of CO2 per mile. So taking something in the mid-range of their fleet in terms of tonnage, a ship like those used between Cairnryan and Belfast, that works out to 25g C02 per passenger per mile, assuming the ship is full (I would also assume that given the ship weighs 30,000 tonnes, whether it is full or empty makes next to no difference to fuel consumption).
See this link for passenger ferry vs short haul flight CO2 emissions per passenger: https://www.seat61.com/CO2flights.htm#co2-emissions-for-train-ferry-car-plane. You also have to consider the increased greenhouse effect from air travel releasing emissions at a much higher atmospheric level than sea travel.
While the improvements to the Irish motorway network does make Fishguard to Rosslare more competitive than Fishguard to Dublin, you also have to consider drivers hours legislation. Although it may be quicker to do Fishguard to Rosslare and drive, the additional time at sea helps the rest situation, and is still quicker overall than the Holyhead route to Dublin I believe.
I'm trying to find more info on it, I think I recall some reinstated routes connecting some of the Scandinavian countries, but all I can find info about rn is the proposed Rosyth-Dunkirk ferry! I'll have a proper scour later.
Yeah, the graphic the Man in Seat 61 quoted had foot passenger ferries at about 19g CO2 pppm, so pretty close.
According to Google Maps the channel tunnel to Fishguard Ferry Port is about 60 miles shorter (40 mins quicker) by road than Holyhead, however if you use the existing Fishguard to Rosslare ferry the total journeytime is 3 hours longer than via Holyhead. A Fishguard to Dublin direct ferry would be twice the sea miles of Holyhead so I can't see how it could offer competitive journey times from the South East/London/Channel.
We're working on the proviso that the sweet spot for modern ship fuel efficiency and carrying capacity is roughly 27kn/approx. 31 miles an hour. So that kind of operating speed would make such a route viable.
On the other hand many of these ferry routes are rather short, which raises the question of whether a ferry solution is the best choice for many of them.
It's still 98 nm (Fishguard)vice 58 nm (Holyhead). So simple journey time is around 1 hr 30 longer even at 27 kn, that would wipe out any road time saving for anywhere in the southeast, east of the A34 ish. It's not viable.
indeed
You're entitled to your opinion, but other forum users have calculated that 27kn would be a reasonable balance at which fuel burn is not significantly higher.
According to current Google Maps estimations, London to Fishguard is 4hr48 mins by car, and London to Holyhead is 5hr22 by car. Even by adjusting for differential HGV/car speed, it's still faster.
It's not just about the South East though. That's one source of traffic, but those in South Wales/the West Country form a sizeable bloc of demand too, and cross-Wales roads are abysmal.
Even from Bristol to Holyhead it's only an hour longer than to Fishguard via the M5/A55. That basically takes out any possible market except for south wales.
Indeed I suggested a Heysham-Belfast route, there is still Birkenhead to Belfast, but a 27knot ferry may just make it viable from Heysham.
"Only" an hour longer? That's an hour's more of driving time you could use to complete a delivery on the other side.
This one is fact, not opinion. The Stena Superfast X is capable of a speed of 27 knots. To drive her that fast through the water, she has 4x 11500kw main engines. She can carry 1924 lane metres of freight.
Services from South Wales are dying slowly. Both operators to Rosslare have recently downgraded their ships, and Swansea-Cork limped along and would never survive with today's crew and fuel costs, let alone be able to compete with Ryanair. The drive to Fishguard is slow, tedious and unreliable - personally I would far rather take the extra 30 mins drive, rather than battle the Bryn Glas tunnels and the long trek from the end of the M4. The port facilities are antiquated and inadequate for most modern ferries. The routes are exposed to the full force of the weather. Personally I think that both Stena and Irish Ferries are playing a game of chicken, both hoping that the other closes their route first, as they really must struggle being in competition on such a marginal route.
Unfortunately there is no passenger service from Birkenhead to Dublin. The service was withdrawn when Stena took over from Norfolkline who had replaced Norse Merchant quite a few years ago. There were passenger with car facilities with P&O from Liverpool (Seaforth) until the end of last year then that was withdrawn. Freight operator Seatruck did take a limited number of passengers vehicles on their Irish Sea day time sailings from various ports but that ended with Covid and following the company's acquisition by CldN who are a freight only operator all passenger services have now ended.
I agree. Hopefully the freight only route is a temporary one that becomes a full ropax service. It was all very short notice for them to get it set up when the P&O version closed.
When it first started in February through to March they did have ro/pax STENA HORIZON followed by STENA NORDICA operating on the route until they secured the charter of BORE SONG. Either of those could have been tested with passengers to assess demand but they didn't seem keen. A few other people I am in contact with, one of whom works for another ferry operator has suggested Stena don't want to carry passengers out of Birkenhead less it undermines their Holyhead service. But in this day and age when reducing vehicle miles seems to be the objective taking out numberous cars and trucks which travel the 99 miles between Liverpool and Holyhead and vice versa would seem a desirable thing to do. One can only hope that a passenger service will return one day.
I wonder if the new Isle of Man ferry terminal will induce an uplift in demand for that service, and then Stena will think about a limited reintroduction of Birkenhead to Dublin services as ferries from Liverpool/Birko get a better profile in general.
I don't know whether it will. Maybe there will be better waiting areas for car ferry passengers, but for classic foot passengers it is a lot further from James St station... Perhaps they assume everybody will just get a taxi from Lime St.
LW1 bus operates from Liverpool One Bus Station every 30 minutes on operating days from around 07:30 to 19:30. This is being underwritten by Peel Ports as it is seen as not only serving the IoM Terminal but also the ongoing residential and commencial development and the due to open 2025 Everton football statium. Used it a few times though many passengers from observation still appear to walk presumably staying in local hotels of which there are quite a few. in terms of walking distance I have walked from Liverpool One Bus Station to the new terminal and via the short cut behind Alexandra Tower only takes 5 minutes more than the old terminal. Basically it is little more than a cruise ship length away from the old terminal.
There is a shuttle bus to/from Liverpool One bus station at the moment, I believe? Maybe this could do with a stop near James St, because it still runs relatively close.
but if you aren't arriving at L1 bus station that is not a lot of help. I wonder what proportion of IOM ferry public transport users arrive in Liverpool by bus, as opposed to by train?
Long distance coach services use Liverpool One Bus Station. Lime Central / James St Stations 5 minutes walk from Liverpool 1. Lime Street is probably 10. Problem is when the council messed around with the traffic flows at Lime Street and basically closed it to through traffic made it diffucult for buses from the station to go direct to Liverpool One and then the Sea Terminal. On Friday and Saturday afternoon those buses scheduled to run up Hannover Street and to near Lime Street are diverted up Duke Street, same with incoming buses thus routed a long way away from Lime Street.
Problem is there is no southbound bus stop on the Strand near the bottom of James St and in their wisdom the council narrowed the south bound Strand to two lanes. Inserting a bus stop there would increase traffic congestion particularly during the evening peak when the afternoon sailing from Douglas usually arrives.
Maybe at least it could observe the northbound stop near James St, and then at least IoM bound passengers would benefit (especially if they're unfamiliar with the city/new terminal/ferry journey