Why do Liverpool-Newcastle TPE services wait at Manchester Victoria?

[Sorcerer]

I apologise for the somewhat lengthy title, I tried to keep it clear as possible without being too long. But I've noticed that the Liverpool to Newcastle services on TransPennine Express seem to wait at Manchester Victoria for about 10-15 minutes. Why is this the case? Having travelled on the journey a few times it can be somewhat frustrating, especially when I'm on the return journey, and having a journey padded out to over 3 hours because of the long stop just feels like forever when you're anxious to get home. However, I assume there's a good reason for this, either through pathing, passenger flow, or maybe to change over to bi-mode power and vice versa, but I don't quite know what it could be. So my question is, why do TPE services between Liverpool and Newcastle make such long stops at Manchester Victoria. Are there any specific reasons for this?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Isn't it to let a 185 before get a good distance ahead of the 802,

 

[spyinthesky]

They don’t appear to all do this except the 17:45 which arrives at 17:33 the rest seem to have 2 or 3 minutes.

 

[mangyiscute]

I apologise for the somewhat lengthy title, I tried to keep it clear as possible without being too long. But I've noticed that the Liverpool to Newcastle services on TransPennine Express seem to wait at Manchester Victoria for about 10-15 minutes. Why is this the case? Having travelled on the journey a few times it can be somewhat frustrating, especially when I'm on the return journey, and having a journey padded out to over 3 hours because of the long stop just feels like forever when you're anxious to get home. However, I assume there's a good reason for this, either through pathing, passenger flow, or maybe to change over to bi-mode power and vice versa, but I don't quite know what it could be. So my question is, why do TPE services between Liverpool and Newcastle make such long stops at Manchester Victoria. Are there any specific reasons for this?

I would assume it is to do with pathing - I'm sure a lot of passengers board and alight but even then nothing more than 3 mins would be necessary, and class 80x trains can switch over to electric power while moving iirc, and if they do it at a station it only takes about 15 seconds (you can hear the engines turn off and then turn on again) so there would certainly be no need for an extended stop for that.
Looking at the paths, it seems like in both directions the extending stop is necessary as between Liverpool and Manchester, it is constrained by the Liverpool to Crewe stopper via Castlefield, which would be very difficult to "re-path", and for the rest of the route I guess the ECML paths are also very constrained so there has to be an extended stop somewhere. Since Manchester is probably the place where there is the biggest replacement of passengers on the train, it makes sense to do it here. Whether it is possible to spread the time out between the stops and if that would be a good idea is another debate, say giving 5 mins at both Huddersfield and Leeds, but I don't see any way in which this can change in the near future - it would require a major timetable recast. Perhaps the ECML timetable change could help, but I wouldn't be too optimistic.

 

[hexagon789]

They don’t appear to all do this except the 17:45 which arrives at 17:33 the rest seem to have 2 or 3 minutes.

Looks like every second one waits 12-15 mins and many others 8 or so:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Manchester Victoria all day on 13/02/2024

Train information at Manchester Victoria all day on 13/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Class 466]

I apologise for the somewhat lengthy title, I tried to keep it clear as possible without being too long. But I've noticed that the Liverpool to Newcastle services on TransPennine Express seem to wait at Manchester Victoria for about 10-15 minutes. Why is this the case? Having travelled on the journey a few times it can be somewhat frustrating, especially when I'm on the return journey, and having a journey padded out to over 3 hours because of the long stop just feels like forever when you're anxious to get home. However, I assume there's a good reason for this, either through pathing, passenger flow, or maybe to change over to bi-mode power and vice versa, but I don't quite know what it could be. So my question is, why do TPE services between Liverpool and Newcastle make such long stops at Manchester Victoria. Are there any specific reasons for this?

This is down to reduced timetable in operation since December where the path from Newcastle to Manchester is the old path that used to go to Piccadilly which doesn't marry up with the path to Liverpool from Victoria entirely so it waits to fit into that slot from there onwards.

 

[Geeves]

The wait used to be on the other direction during the last timetable cuts. It did seem to soak up a lot of issues that seem to be fixed currently to be fair

 

[JRT]

This has happened in a previous timetable, so it's nothing new.

The original plan was for Liverpool – Leeds & beyond half-hourly plus the Manchester Airport – Saltburn and another Manchester – Leeds service to make a combined 15-minute frequency.
Unfortunately the Liverpool – Leeds is dropped to hourly and is timed from Manchester Victoria to form a half-hourly fast service to Leeds.

It's probably not as noticeable in the other direction as it's only 10 minutes' wait but the same thing happens

 

[YorkRailFan]

Unfortunately the Liverpool – Leeds is dropped to hourly

That's thanks to Scarborough services not running to Liverpool (they only run to Manchester in the Peak and terminate at York off-peak).

 

[Greybeard33]

This has happened in a previous timetable, so it's nothing new.

The original plan was for Liverpool – Leeds & beyond half-hourly plus the Manchester Airport – Saltburn and another Manchester – Leeds service to make a combined 15-minute frequency.
Unfortunately the Liverpool – Leeds is dropped to hourly and is timed from Manchester Victoria to form a half-hourly fast service to Leeds.

It's probably not as noticeable in the other direction as it's only 10 minutes' wait but the same thing happens

Further to this, I believe the paths allow for a half hourly service between Liverpool and Leeds, but with only one stop between Liverpool and Victoria. Newton-le-Willows on one service, Lea Green on the other.

Since December TPE has cut the Liverpool - Leeds service to 1tph, so it has to call at both Newton-le-Willows and Lea Green. This increases the journey time with the result that the paths do not match up across Victoria. Therefore the train has to "step back" approximately 15 minutes at Victoria and use the next of the 4tph paths across the Pennines.

 

[TUC]

This is a good example of, whatever the operational reasons, the rail system losing sight of what works best for passengers and is commercially attractive.

 

[Starmill]

Unfortunately you can't cut the timetable down from four express services per hour between Manchester Victoria and Leeds to just two and also keep all of the slots lined up so there's no waiting. It's simply not possible - on at least one service there has to be a wait somewhere. There are big costs to wiping away a significant portion of your service, this is one such.

This is a good example of, whatever the operational reasons, the rail system losing sight of what works best for passengers and is commercially attractive.

To be fair, this timetable isn't designed to meet passenger demand or be commercially successful. It's a desperate attempt to stay the decline. It'd be better if the management and Ministers were honest about that rather than going on about the "improvements" it has brought, but I guess humility isn't to their taste.

 

[Senex]

Unfortunately you can't cut the timetable down from four express services per hour between Manchester Victoria and Leeds to just two and also keep all of the slots lined up so there's no waiting. It's simply not possible - on at least one service there has to be a wait somewhere. There are big costs to wiping away a significant portion of your service, this is one such.


To be fair, this timetable isn't designed to meet passenger demand or be commercially successful. It's a desperate attempt to stay the decline. It'd be better if the management and Ministers were honest about that rather than going on about the "improvements" it has brought, but I guess humility isn't to their taste.

When do "four express services per hour" become merely "n trains per hour"?

The reason behind the extra calls may be just as you suggest, but more stops and long station-waits are just tedious for the passenger expecting an express service. At what stage is said passenger likely to think the car's a better and more comfortable bet?

 

[Llandudno]

Judging by the amount of cars on the M62 I suspect many already have…?

 

[HST43257]

Not only do they balance the paths to about every 30 mins, they also have to include Lea Green, Stalybridge and Dewsbury where applicable, so they would miss the path anyway.

Whilst it makes sense to have 8 mins at MCV and 8 mins at SYB for a forward moving point of view, but it takes away the fairly key 30 min frequency.

 

[Starmill]

When do "four express services per hour" become merely "n trains per hour"?

The reason behind the extra calls may be just as you suggest, but more stops and long station-waits are just tedious for the passenger expecting an express service. At what stage is said passenger likely to think the car's a better and more comfortable bet?

I'm not really sure what you're asking here I'm afraid. The waits are a functional necessity as the timetable has been reduced. There's simply no way to avoid them other than running more services, which isn't going to happen because there's not enough money to hire more drivers.

Judging by the amount of cars on the M62 I suspect many already have…?

It's cheaper, more reliable and offers similar journey times at worst. It's hard to see why you'd choose the train if you had access to a car and driver.

 

[Geeves]

Trucks maybe but the majority of drivers on the M62 are not doing the full length and the train is the same, you can often see a TPE train empty out here at Victoria and reload with a totally different set of passengers so for the majority the fact it waits here isn't a problem.