I appreciate the majority, even on the far left, have thankfully deserted the Russian regime. Good! My question is why are nations such as Cuba voicing support for Russia and why are some in far left circles supporting what is in essence a right wing, nationalist regime? Is it as simple as not realising 'friends aren't what they used to be', or is it 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend', or something else? In particular I'd like to hear from anyone who does defend Russia, whatever their position on the political spectrum as to their reasoning.
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Why do some on the far left still like Russia?
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I'm not in that position but I've talked to (and argued vociferously with!) a few people who are.
Often it's similar to what you said about "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". These people often oppose western (and particularly American) foreign policy, and so sympathise with Russia because they also oppose western foreign policy.
It's also worth noting Putin makes overtures to the hard left some of his speeches. He always likes to mention western colonialism to try and rile these people up and make them side with him rather than with their own countries (he also does this with the hard right - part of the reason he went on about how we're satanic in his last statement).
Often it's similar to what you said about "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". These people often oppose western (and particularly American) foreign policy, and so sympathise with Russia because they also oppose western foreign policy.
It's also worth noting Putin makes overtures to the hard left some of his speeches. He always likes to mention western colonialism to try and rile these people up and make them side with him rather than with their own countries (he also does this with the hard right - part of the reason he went on about how we're satanic in his last statement).
Oh but they don't get that the reason he makes friends on both hard right and left is that Russia's foreign policy, at least in the past ten or twelve years has depeneded heavily on destabilisation of rival political systems? That Russia is not actually making friendly overtures but is only looking out for one thing - the Russian government. I mean that shouldn't be hard to get, should it?
If your not in flavour with America then you need to be friends with Military no2.
Though I suspect the definition of no2 might get reevaluated and the EU and China might pick up some more friends.
I was surprised in summer to see how welcome Russians still were in in Europe this summer. italy restricted access to the Pantheon for a Russian tour group to get a group viewing when I was there, specifically waiting until all other foreigners had left. Some bars openly advertised Russians welcome. I saw similiar in Athens and Cannes.
To be fair, they were Russians were families with children, in a large group and you could see the nervousness in their faces and reluctance to speak.. I heard one mother telling her child to speak in French, not Russian. But I did feel there presence was wrong. There is a lot of “live and let live” attitude in latin Europe and a feeling this is American / Britains war, and that €uros are €uros regardless where its from they dont care.
Thats part of the problem
Actually I disagree with this even as someone who has no sympathy for the Russian regime. Making all Russians, no matter how innocent not feel welcome is unlikely to change hearts and minds in Russia. Just in the same way the boycott of white South Africa intensified views among many white Afrikaners.
The far left are completely bonkers; I don't think it is really possible to understand their reasoning because they are illogical people who are well beyond reason.
What annoys me is when people associate the hard/far/radical left with the moderate left; I have much more in common with people who are moderate right / right of centre than the radical left.
It's a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" because many on the far left oppose NATO and military intervention. Their worldview is also largely influenced by their anti-Western philosophy. I know someone who is pretty much a typical hardcore leftists who believes in the Russian cause and that any anti-Russian points is mere western propaganda. The Stop The War Coalition for example believes NATO are the aggressors in the Ukraine war, because for some odd reason they don't see the former Eastern Bloc countries as independent sovereign states who joined NATO of their own volition. Strangely enough, Putin also doesn't see those countries as sovereign states either, but rather simply as Russian land that was wrongly "given away" after the fall of the USSR, so perhaps they're actually properly unified in this belief.
In some cases it's useful idiocy or naivety such as Jeremy Corbyn not wanting to arm Ukraine and instead come to a more diplomatic solution because arming them would prolong the war, but ultimately that's very much the point. It's not wrong to be anti-war but the Ukrainian people didn't want this war either, yet now they find themselves fighting one. In my honest opinion though, most of their support for Russia is simply them exercising their anti-Western views as one can expect, because a lot of them weren't exactly supportive of the Hong Kong Protests, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were supportive of China in the event of them invading Taiwan. But ultimately, support for these regimes that are about as far removed from left-wing ideals as you can get stems from an anti-Western worldview and that's all there is to it really.
In some cases it's useful idiocy or naivety such as Jeremy Corbyn not wanting to arm Ukraine and instead come to a more diplomatic solution because arming them would prolong the war, but ultimately that's very much the point. It's not wrong to be anti-war but the Ukrainian people didn't want this war either, yet now they find themselves fighting one. In my honest opinion though, most of their support for Russia is simply them exercising their anti-Western views as one can expect, because a lot of them weren't exactly supportive of the Hong Kong Protests, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were supportive of China in the event of them invading Taiwan. But ultimately, support for these regimes that are about as far removed from left-wing ideals as you can get stems from an anti-Western worldview and that's all there is to it really.
Welcoming them with open arms is not going to change hearts and minds either. They are just making mugs of us.
They are hoping all this will go away and normality will resume as if nothing happened at some point.
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I do wonder how much of this caricature of the hard left actually exists, versus journalists doing some digging and finding the most outrage inducing posts on twitter and stripping them of context for an easy story.
Equally I remember a few days ago that Elon Musk was making suggestions that Ukraine seek a diplomatic solution, so it's hardly just a left-wing thing.
It's worth noting that for large parts of history, not sending arms to countries that are at war was fairly standard practice. Indeed the Confederacy tried to get some warships made in the UK and they were not allowed to buy them. The idea of sending weapons to countries is very much a modern (perhaps postwar?) invention.
Furthermore, let's not forget the optics of Jeremy Corbyn calling for weapons to be sent to the antisemitic Azov Battalion, the daily mail would have a field day.
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I mean I'm not so sure that there's other viable alternatives for us to support Ukraine against Russian aggression without further escalation of the war.
I do not believe that Elon Musk would make such a statement out of political principle quite simply because he has a vested interest in Starlink that will be losing revenue due to the conflict.
Gloster
Established Member
Cuba is geographically close to the US, so it knows that Russia is likely to be more receptive to a country that can more easily be a thorn in Uncle Sam’s underbelly than many others. Honeyed words between the two may also lead to the trade on generous terms of various goods between them.
brad465
Established Member
They already are, Georgia and Moldova have put in EU applications since the escalation in February (albeit they have a lot of work to do around border security and Governance first), while the central Asian countries like Kazakhstan are seeking assurances from China, despite previous ties with Russia.
longer range weapons would help. Just having something in range of Moscow would be a bargaining chip for stopping killer Drones
if there is no deterrent, there is nothing to deter.
he just lost a US govt contract for $800mn due to not being able to guarentee download speeds over 5 years. That was probably on his mind, considering Ukraine was a poc for it.
Its also worth noting Starlink critically starting having outages in Ukraine during the recent advances too, same time as his statements about peace deals.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Why do some on the far left still like Russia?
because they are tankie cranks!
( BTW there are plenty on the right in the Russian camp)
because they are tankie cranks!
( BTW there are plenty on the right in the Russian camp)
Essan
Member
Nationally, there are a few countries reliant themselves on Russian support - Syria, Iran etc - who have stood up for ands supported Russia. There are a few more countries that for political and financial reasons don't want to fall out with Russia and who have remained "neutral".
What i find interesting is that in the western world, most (social media) support for Russia against the "Ukrainian racist Nazis
" seems (in my experience) to be from the far right. Especially in America. The Trumpist MAGA types.
What i find interesting is that in the western world, most (social media) support for Russia against the "Ukrainian racist Nazis
" seems (in my experience) to be from the far right. Especially in America. The Trumpist MAGA types.Purple Train
Established Member
(EDIT: Horseshoe spectrum at work!)
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ABB125
Established Member
Also known as the horseshoe spectrum...
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I've noticed this (the bit in parentheses) too.
To be honest a big part of it seems to be simply a reaction to people they consider to be the "woke left" putting Ukrainian flags in their Twitter handles. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
Those on the Left who are pro-Russia are just contrarian hipsters, I wouldn't lose sleep over that either.
I'm always very suspicious of those (usually a long way left) who think that "peace" and "absence of war" are the same thing. Ukraine is a perfect study in this - absence of (massed army) war could be achieved easily but peace will be much harder
Purple Train
Established Member
I knew there was a theory, but couldn't for the life of me remember anything about it, hence the ridiculous description. I'll edit the post accordingly
While I would like to explicitly state that Putin is an evil mass murdering monster who needs to be given the death penalty when this war ends, I will say this.
I don't think you can blame Russians and automatically say all Russians are evil Putin supporters, and block them from entering restaurants, bars, etc - any more than you can claim all Americans in 2016 were Trump supporters, or, indeed, all British people are currently supporters of Liz Truss.
Being a citizen of a country does not mean you agree with that country's regime.
I'm not sure the far left ideologically believe in Putin. After all, just about all his values are those of the extreme right. Imperialism is a key trait of Putin, so anyone who supports Putin also supports imperialism.
However I will echo what others say and point out that some people that critique American foreign policy seem to believe they have to take the side of whoever is opposing America.
That to me is absurd: you can be critical of American foreign policy in general, and still consider Putin an evil, mass-murdering, imperialist, far right monster.
Hmmm. I wonder if we'll get to the point when the UK is the only country in Europe not in the EU or Schengen.... except Russia. Now that definitely would not look good, but hopefully by then the Johnson-Truss era will be ancient history and we'll be at least more closely allied with the EU than at present.
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Gloster
Established Member
There is already a possibility, if some elements of the Conservative party get their way, that we will be, along with Russia and Belarus, the only countries not members of the European Convention on Human Rights. We were a founder member of the ECHR and took a major role in drafting it.
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Kilopylae
Member
That's a good way of expressing the Stop The War coalition fallacy.
Hopefully the extreme fringe of the Tory party will become less and less relevant now and this sort of far-right nonsense will be shoved in the bin forever.
ninja-lewis
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The Confederate States Navy did in fact have a significant number of ships built in Liverpool during the American Civil War. They took advantage of a loop-hole in the British proclamation of neutrality that allowed the construction of war-like vessels provided they were not armed until in international waters.
Likewise during the American Revolution, France provided significant aid to the nascent American forces.
The main change hasn't been political. Simply that advantages in technology and industrialisation have made weapons play a greater role in war (both in capability and volume) and advances in transportation have made it easier to move them. Go back 150-200 years and on land at least, manpower and especially horses would have been more pressing concerns than weapons.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Of course nobody has really outlined the other elephant in the room. It’s not just “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”, it’s the lack of rule of law in Russia that appeals. Unlimited government fiat appeals to anti-democratic revolutionaries on both the left and the right, and that really is the source of Russia’s appeal to extremists.
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