Why do some passengers not get how annoying it is to play music and videos out loud?

[DM352]

I think the newer trains being open plan with open gangways where noise travels more. I miss the declassified class 423 corridor seating!

I had hope years ago that some trains would have a quiet coach with something that stops the signal like a giant faraday cage in the zone but know with mobile storage cheap things get downloaded!

 

[Elon Bust]

I think the newer trains being open plan with open gangways where noise travels more. I miss the declassified class 423 corridor seating!

I had hope years ago that some trains would have a quiet coach with something that stops the signal like a giant faraday cage in the zone but know with mobile storage cheap things get downloaded!

As previous posters have alluded to, a 'Quiet Coach' means nothing nowadays. It's basically just a form of trolling from the rail operator.

I don't like the message it sends out anyway. Does a quiet coach mean you can do whatever you like on the rest of the train? In Japan, it's peace and harmony everywhere. Even on the east coast of America my experience has been pretty good. We don't have enough ambition in this country.

 

[BeijingDave]

As previous posters have alluded to, a 'Quiet Coach' means nothing nowadays. It's basically just a form of trolling from the rail operator.

I don't like the message it sends out anyway. Does a quiet coach mean you can do whatever you like on the rest of the train? In Japan, it's peace and harmony everywhere. Even on the east coast of America my experience has been pretty good. We don't have enough

In the US, I imagine that is something to do with the type of people who use the railway.

The Acela corridor, especially, will be high income managerial staff and government workers commuting, not much low income I imagine.

The behaviour of customers on Spirit (low-cost airline) is among the worst I have seen anywhere.

 

[Krokodil]

The Acela corridor, especially, will be high income managerial staff

Those can be some of the worst offenders. Loud phone calls so that everyone can hear how important they are...

 

[joncombe]

I think we should take an example from the French here, and this was at a station not even on a train.

Man fined for loudspeaker call at French station

The outraged passenger hires a lawyer to dispute the fine over a public phone call in Nantes.

www.bbc.co.uk

"A man who was fined €200 (£166) for making a call on loudspeaker at a train station in France has begun a fight against the penalty."

 

[Krokodil]

Calls for 'headphone dodgers' who blare music to be hit with £1k FINE

The Liberal Democrats have called for stricter measures to be put into place when it comes to 'headphone dodgers', as they believe most passengers are too frightened to speak out.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The topic has been picked up in political circles:

A poll commissioned by the Liberal Democrats found that nearly four in 10 people had their journey soured by videos or music played out loud by others on public transport.

The research also deduced that over half of Brits didn't feel comfortable in asking a fellow commuter to turn down the volume

 

[bleeder4]

Various reports this morning that the Lib Dems want to change the law to explicitly ban playing music and videos out loud from a phone on trains and buses in England. A proposal that I'm sure many of us will support, but it does need government backing to have any effect. Here's the link to the BBC's article on this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly5g7v2qddo

The Liberal Democrats are calling for fines of up to £1,000 for "headphone dodgers" who play loud music and videos on public transport.
Current railway byelaws already ban many forms of anti-social behaviour on trains and at stations, including using equipment to produce sound without permission if this annoys others.
However, the Lib Dems want to change the law to explicitly ban playing music and videos out loud from a phone on trains and buses in England.
A Department for Transport spokesperson said: "There are already strict rules in place to prevent anti-social behaviour on public transport, including possible fines of up to £1,000."
The government is also introducing further measures to tackle anti-social behaviour on buses, including mandatory training for staff on how to respond to incidents.
The idea has cross-party support, with some Labour and Tory MPs previously suggesting similar measures.
However, without government support the Lib Dem proposals are unlikely to become law.

 

[Cross City]

Various reports this morning that the Lib Dems want to change the law to explicitly ban playing music and videos out loud from a phone on trains and buses in England. A proposal that I'm sure many of us will support, but it does need government backing to have any effect. Here's the link to the BBC's article on this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly5g7v2qddo

At least the UK is a world leader in something... banning things.

Good luck finding the time, resources and money to enforce something this pathetic.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

In the case of railways, they could just add this to the byelaws. Hopefully over time, with a few publicised fines / kicking people off trains it would then gradually become socially unacceptable for people to share their questionable taste in music / videos with the whole carriage (as it always used to be).

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the case of railways, they could just add this to the byelaws. Hopefully over time, with a few publicised fines / kicking people off trains it would then gradually become socially unacceptable for people to share their questionable taste in music / videos with the whole carriage (as it always used to be).

It's already in the Byelaws. The railway just needs to follow Merseyrail's lead and start enforcing them with a strict approach (feet on seats included).

 

[BeijingDave]

At least the UK is a world leader in something... banning things.

Good luck finding the time, resources and money to enforce something this pathetic.

Spoken like a serial non-headphone wearer who doesn't see the problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least the UK is a world leader in something... banning things.

Good luck finding the time, resources and money to enforce something this pathetic.

Enforcement can, and should, be cost-neutral by making the settlements to avoid prosecution high enough that the cost of enforcement is covered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Spoken like a serial non-headphone wearer who doesn't see the problem.

Quite.

 

[BRX]

A start would be for the TOCs to make some effort to discourage it through notices/posters/announcements.
No legal changes or enforcement necessary to do that.
At present the majority of TOCs seem to be entirely uninterested in doing anything at all despite it being a significant factor in how much people enjoy their journeys.
Even a notice in each carriage saying to use headphones would be something to point at, for those passengers who are brave enough to challenge it.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

A start would be for the TOCs to make some effort to discourage it through notices/posters/announcements.
No legal changes or enforcement necessary to do that.
At present the majority of TOCs seem to be entirely uninterested in doing anything at all despite it being a significant factor in how much people enjoy their journeys.
Even a notice in each carriage saying to use headphones would be something to point at, for those passengers who are brave enough to challenge it.

TOCs are clearly not bothered about noise pollution - as shown by the torrent of high-volume drivel which plays over the PA systems regularly.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The Guardian is reporting that the LibDems are trying to get playing music etc. out loud banned using an amendment to the Bus Services bill going through Parliament. I'm not clear from the article whether this would be on all public transport or only on buses. Link

Under the plan, those who blast out songs and TV shows from their phone on public transport, or while at stations or bus stops, could face a maximum fine of £1,000.

The party is proposing an amendment to the bus services bill, which is now going through parliament, that would make this an offence. As transport policy is devolved, this would apply to England only.

(EDIT: Just to clarify, forum staff moved this post from another thread. In case anyone thinks I was reposting material without first checking what was already in this thread )

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Guardian is reporting that the LibDems are trying to get playing music etc. out loud banned using an amendment to the Bus Services bill going through Parliament. I'm not clear from the article whether this would be on all public transport or only on buses. Link

There's no need for a new law banning it on the railways because there already is one, so perhaps that's to apply it to buses too (where anecdotally it's a bigger problem still).

 

[Spartacus]

So the reason that we have youths climbing on the overhead racks is that they've heard too many announcements in the five minutes they were fare dodging on my train for? Interesting theory...

In fairness we used to climb in the racks 25 years ago, usually rather drunk on quiet last trains; always had a ticket though! We did marvel at how a rather portly friend could fit into a Voyager luggage rack yet even a relatively small suitcase couldn't!

 

[jon0844]

TOCs are clearly not bothered about noise pollution - as shown by the torrent of high-volume drivel which plays over the PA systems regularly.

We can debate how important some announcements are, but they are made for a reason on a public transport system designed for use by anyone with varying disabilities.

Playing loud music is not the same, and I would say it isn't something that people aren't bothered about - it's more a case of people not wanting to say anything for fear of verbal or physical abuse - which isn't a non-zero risk. That in itself is a reason to try and deal with it (and, of course, for people to also write to their TOC if they feel there are too many announcements - but separately as they're not linked).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Ironically, an occasional automated announcement telling people not to play devices out loud would be a good first start to solving the problem - even though it risks adding to the too-many-announcements problem. It would be a lot more useful than some of the announcements currently made.

 

[Halwynd]

It's not often a political party does or suggests something that I'm really pleased about, but today I'm delighted with the Liberal Democrats.

This will at least raise more awareness of the issue, and hopefully further momentum towards bringing this behaviour to an end.

 

[Towers]

I wonder how many of those who indulge in these selfish practices are of the sort who would simply refuse to engage with any sort of enforcement, much as plenty of people do with revenue matters. Ultimately this won’t be resolved by yet more rules and policies, and certainly not if those who are expected to enforce them are the same on board staff that we already have - nobody really wants trains delayed or staff assaulted over somebody refusing to turn their noise off!

This sort of thing is societal, it has become incredibly widespread within in a fairly short timeframe and is simply a measure of how the population is becoming increasingly thoughtless, entitled and selfish. Just as with feet on the seats, you see a wide range of culprits inflicting their unwelcome noise on everybody else within a train carriage or on a bus, a lot of the time clearly without the faintest idea of just how utterly ignorant their behaviour is. I fear that it’s just the world that we have built for ourselves, and I’m not sure what the answer is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder how many of those who indulge in these selfish practices are of the sort who would simply refuse to engage with any sort of enforcement, much as plenty of people do with revenue matters. Ultimately this won’t be resolved by yet more rules and policies, and certainly not if those who are expected to enforce them are the same on board staff that we already have - nobody really wants trains delayed or staff assaulted over somebody refusing to turn their noise off!

This "we won't enforce things because we might get assaulted" idea needs to go away by way of recruiting staff whose job includes that risk. Nightclub bouncers don't avoid throwing people out because they might get assaulted. Police officers don't not arrest people because they might get assaulted. The idea that if you kick off you get away with things needs to end - if you kick off, you need to be arrested and charged accordingly (of both the original offence and the assault). I can understand that's not in the remit of a normal railway guard, for example, but Merseyrail specifically employ enforcement officers for this purpose and every other TOC could as well.

And yes it's better that trains are delayed than that people get away with breaking the law, however minor (because minor crime leads to major crime).

 

[Bletchleyite]

This sort of thing is societal, it has become incredibly widespread within in a fairly short timeframe and is simply a measure of how the population is becoming increasingly thoughtless, entitled and selfish. Just as with feet on the seats, you see a wide range of culprits inflicting their unwelcome noise on everybody else within a train carriage or on a bus, a lot of the time clearly without the faintest idea of just how utterly ignorant their behaviour is. I fear that it’s just the world that we have built for ourselves, and I’m not sure what the answer is.

The answer is strict, no-exceptions, zero-tolerance enforcement. Nobody puts their feet on the seats on Merseyrail if they have any sense. It turned around the New York Subway too.

We need to stop accepting antisocial behaviour, however minor, and start enforcing against it to the full extent of the law. The railway manages this for minor ticketing offences (e.g. Northern prosecuting people over starting short on Advances costing a couple of quid), it needs to start doing it for behaviour too.

Playing sound out loud from a device is already an offence under the Byelaws (it has to be to someone's annoyance, but a member of enforcement staff can testify it's to theirs so that's no barrier). We just need to make people EXPECT to be prosecuted if they do it (or at least to have to pay a £100+ settlement not to be prosecuted) and it will stop.

 

[Meerkat]

This "we won't enforce things because we might get assaulted" idea needs to go away by way of recruiting staff whose job includes that risk. Nightclub bouncers don't avoid throwing people out because they might get assaulted. Police officers don't not arrest people because they might get assaulted. The idea that if you kick off you get away with things needs to end - if you kick off, you need to be arrested and charged accordingly (of both the original offence and the assault). I can understand that's not in the remit of a normal railway guard, for example, but Merseyrail specifically employ enforcement officers for this purpose and every other TOC could as well.

If the guards insist that they are a safety role then they should be more like bouncers (certainly for future recruitment). And resolutely backed by management (no caving in to ‘customer is always right; private prosecutions if the police won’t go after those who assault staff etc).
There is a dangerous tipping point of unknown place when suddenly social media etc paints the railway as lawless and it becomes actively avoided.

ps announcements/posters would really help. I really believe many of the culprits just don’t think about it and would stop if it was made clear that it is unacceptable.

 

[Turtle]

At least the UK is a world leader in something... banning things.

Good luck finding the time, resources and money to enforce something this pathetic.

Pathetic? It's a form of aural assault.

 

[jon0844]

This "we won't enforce things because we might get assaulted" idea needs to go away by way of recruiting staff whose job includes that risk. Nightclub bouncers don't avoid throwing people out because they might get assaulted. Police officers don't not arrest people because they might get assaulted. The idea that if you kick off you get away with things needs to end - if you kick off, you need to be arrested and charged accordingly (of both the original offence and the assault). I can understand that's not in the remit of a normal railway guard, for example, but Merseyrail specifically employ enforcement officers for this purpose and every other TOC could as well.

And yes it's better that trains are delayed than that people get away with breaking the law, however minor (because minor crime leads to major crime).

I agree, but many do not - and in a time of social media that is now actively attacking the Government by saying it locks people up for saying 'hurty words' you just get more people standing up to what they see as tyranny. Being told not to do something anti-social? That's unacceptable. I can do what I want, and what are you going to do about it? That's their attitude and it won't be easy to undo.

Travel Safe Officers have powers that I would imagine are the same as Merseyrail, and I think we need more and more of them to be able to physically remove people... although of course you then have people running to the newspapers with their sad faces and claiming they were vulnerable and unfairly picked on etc (perhaps in some cases this happens, of course, but we all know how quick some offenders turn to playing the victim when anyone stands up to them).

I was on a Thameslink train the other day (MML) where the driver came on to warn people about smoking and vaping, likely having looked inside the train on CCTV when stopped at a station. He pointed out that there were smoke detectors on the train and if it had to be reset, he'd have to come down and do this and delay the train for everyone else onboard. He also said that if anyone was seen later on, he'd have them removed at the next station and wait for BTP. Now I am certain there was a lot of bluffing there (chances are it was vaping and the sensors can't detect that, and almost certainly he wouldn't delay the train) but it was nice to hear. As it was a manual announcement by one driver, it's clearly not company policy - no such messages on the PIS. Plus, sadly, if the train WAS delayed I wonder how many passengers would be saying 'This is ridiculous.. I am going to be late now, just let them smoke/vape' because that's the world we live in now.

I am all for starting on changing this, as it all ties in with anti-social behaviour and the self-entitlement culture that leads to people brazenly stealing and simply having to give a threatening glance or dress in a certain way to get away with things.

 

[jon0844]

I fear that it’s just the world that we have built for ourselves, and I’m not sure what the answer is.

Yes it is, but you solve it by undoing this behaviour. It isn't easy or quick, and requires people to get onboard (rather than moan about the state becoming too heavy handed by punishing people for what can be seen as a small crime compared to rape and murder*).

But when you clamp down hard, people realise that what they do won't work anymore. They perhaps stop doing, or stop sharing 'hacks' on TikTok on how to get away with things.

* This is always the 'go to' argument against punishing someone for anti-social behaviour, or things like parking tickets. 'Why aren't you going after burglars, rapists and murderers?'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is worth noting that by and large Merseyrail have a lot of public support for being strict on antisocial behaviour - in marked contrast to their ticketing practices.

I'd say Travelsafe officers are not quite the same thing - they are more like bouncers and just seek to chuck people off - Merseyrail prosecute.

ps announcements/posters would really help. I really believe many of the culprits just don’t think about it and would stop if it was made clear that it is unacceptable.

I would agree the railway should do more in terms of posters/signage dictating acceptable behaviour. What to do in case of reservations being shown is one example.

The ex-Abellio TOCs do have "house rules" posters (it's a common Dutch practice) but perhaps not enough of them and I don't think they specifically mention music - but I have seen posters on buses about it.

 

[jon0844]

Then instead of TSOs we need what Merseyrail have.

I know some of the new uniforms being worn by GTR revenue staff are much less nicey-nicey than before. Less of the 'customer service' look and more the look of someone who has some powers (even if they often do not). Stab vests are increasingly becoming an option for staff who have not that long adopted body cameras, which in itself is a sad sign of where we are.