why does it take so long from mile end to stratford?? (centeral line)

[Brooke]

View attachment 112087

There is quite a distance, visible clearly here.

This itself is an interesting question though: why is it such a distance?

Living around this area for many years, I’m always surprised there wasn’t one more station somewhere around Bow Church, which presumably has always been quite densely populated & in the past quite an industrial area.

Why the long drag to Stratford does anyone know?

 

[Horizon22]

This itself is an interesting question though: why is it such a distance?

Living around this area for many years, I’m always surprised there wasn’t one more station somewhere around Bow Church, which presumably has always been quite densely populated & in the past quite an industrial area.

Why the long drag to Stratford does anyone know?

The stations (Bethnal Green - Stratford) were redeveloped and incorporated into the expanded Central line in 1946, whilst Bow Road still existed (until 1949), so that is perhaps why? Also cost after the war? Otherwise the area between Bow and Stratford is a lot of waterways and warehousing so perhaps it was not deemed to be worthwhile. Even today, Pudding Mill Lane on the DLR has relatively low passenger figures on the DLR (~0.7 million).

 

[swt_passenger]

This itself is an interesting question though: why is it such a distance?

Living around this area for many years, I’m always surprised there wasn’t one more station somewhere around Bow Church, which presumably has always been quite densely populated & in the past quite an industrial area.

Why the long drag to Stratford does anyone know?

I think it’s partially to do with the gradients in the vicinity, having decided to interchange at platform level at Stratford, and then at District line level at Mile End, then getting under the various watercourses west of Stratford means a significant steep downward gradient. Once that’s levelled out you need a smooth curve back up to Mile End. It’s possible the only flat area of track didn’t line up with a suitable place for a station on the surface.

 

[jumble]

I think the highest scheduled speed between two station stops is Finchley Road to Harrow-on-the-Hill. It is 11.63km (7.23 miles) and has a schedule of 11 minutes (so 39.4mph). Unsurprisingly it is the longest distance between two scheduled stops on the system. Seven Sisters to Finsbury Park (3.15km, 1.96 miles) is scheduled at 4 minutes (29.3mph) but strangely in the reverse direction it has a schedule of 5.3 minutes (22.0mph).

In view of my earlier post, Errors and Omissions excepted!

I think HOTH to Moor park is faster
WTT 342 says 9.39 Km which is 5.87 miles in 7.5 minutes which I make 46.95 MPH
(I am assuming we ignore Chiltern HOTH to Ricky)

 

[Brooke]

The stations (Bethnal Green - Stratford) were redeveloped and incorporated into the expanded Central line in 1946, whilst Bow Road still existed (until 1949), so that is perhaps why? Also cost after the war? Otherwise the area between Bow and Stratford is a lot of waterways and warehousing so perhaps it was not deemed to be worthwhile. Even today, Pudding Mill Lane on the DLR has relatively low passenger figures on the DLR (~0.7 million).

I think it’s partially to do with the gradients in the vicinity, having decided to interchange at platform level at Stratford, and then at District line level at Mile End, then getting under the various watercourses west of Stratford means a significant steep downward gradient. Once that’s levelled out you need a smooth curve back up to Mile End. It’s possible the only flat area of track didn’t line up with a suitable place for a station on the surface.

Both interesting and quite plausible theories!

 

[hexagon789]

I think HOTH to Moor park is faster
WTT 342 says 9.39 Km which is 5.87 miles in 7.5 minutes which I make 46.95 MPH
(I am assuming we ignore Chiltern HOTH to Ricky)

5.83mi but still over 46 and 2/3rds mph.

Being the Met can do 62mph (or is it 100km/h they use?), that's got to be a huge advantage. I wonder if anything was even faster between stops back when 70mph was still permitted.

 

[Lewlew]

There is a fan shaft with emergency staircase to street level located between Mile End and Stratford at Old Ford. Obviously not for passenger use though.

 

[Dstock7080]

Being the Met can do 62mph (or is it 100km/h they use?), that's got to be a huge advantage.

MET is currently 60mph maximum.

 

[hexagon789]

MET is currently 60mph maximum.

I wasn't sure if the Met had been metricated, given the top speed of S-stock is usually expressed as 100km/h (62mph). Presumably it is still the fastest line though?

 

[philthetube]

MET trains stop motoring at 62mph, however line speed is 60, downhill with a following wind they will go considerably faster although the speedo trips out at 67mph

Certainly the highest achievable speed for an underground train would be south from Amersham, I don't know if this has been done however.

 

[jumble]

MET trains stop motoring at 62mph, however line speed is 60, downhill with a following wind they will go considerably faster although the speedo trips out at 67mph

Certainly the highest achievable speed for an underground train would be south from Amersham, I don't know if this has been done however.

And some drivers hit the stops on the Northbound Fasts but not that often in my experience
I assume that there might be automatic reporting of overspeeds
( I used to time A stocks regularly at 65 on my satnav)

 

[Lucan]

Certainly the highest achievable speed for an underground train would be south from Amersham, I don't know if this has been done however.

When I was working as an engineer for LU I conducted some instrumented test runs on a 4-car A Stock unit, shuttling between Harrow-on-the-Hill and Rickmansworth in the middle of the day. The line limit was 70mph at the time AFAIR but we had dispensation to push it as much as we thought fit. Letting the previous service train get well ahead, I drove some runs myself, hitting over 80mph around Northwood, in the Harrow direction of course. The train was quite stable, but there was a similar feeling to driving a car too fast along a narrow country lane. There is a left hand curve around there, with a lot of trackside greenery, so an assistant was leaning out of the right hand cab window as far as they could to look for the signals.

Is Amersham - Rickmansworth a steeper gradient than around Northwood?

I don't suppose you would be allowed to do anything like that these days, I expect the train electronics would not allow it anyway.

 

[philthetube]

Amersham Rickmansworth is considerably steeper.

It would not surprise me if 90mph plus was attainable.

The only restriction on train speed is the motors dropping out at 62mph, there is no automatic braking system.

A train coasting from a standing start at Amersham will need to be braked well before Chorleywood to avoid speeding.

Rumours had it that S stock had adjustments made to the electronics in order to achieve their test mileages more quickly before delivery, I would be surprised if that wee true though.

 

[notverydeep]

One other aspect that affects the speed over the Mile End to Stratford Central line link is the this type of Automatic Train Operation (Westinghouse UK) in use from the 1990s line upgrade. This system only supports a limited number of speed codes. These are the maximum safe speed that can be assigned to the train for any given section or movement authority. Because of the need for quite a few low speed codes to reflect speeds through curves, switches and crossings along the route, there are no speed codes between 65 km/h the maximum tunnel section speed and (originally) 100 km/h the maximum line speed. The tunnels east of Liverpool Street are much newer than those west of that point and are generally much straighter and have fewer steep gradients, and could be made suitable for higher speeds than 65 km/h.

In the early stages of evaluating options for the Central Line Improvment Programme (CLIP), increasing the speed across this and similar sections was considered in order to reduce run times across a very busy part of the line, but the highest speed code (now 85 km/h) would have resulted in too many gauge infingements (as the vehicle moves about more at that speed), potentially causing it to come into contact with something (for example cable runs) without suitable works to fix. The likely cost of either suitable gauge enhancements and / or a signalling modification to provide an additional intermediate speed code (75 km/h for example) were both understood to be too high to justify inclusion in the project given the budget available, despite the potential benefit.

It is however a constraint that any future upgrade including significant modification to the signalling and / or new trains would want to look at again, as there is a clear opportunity for future imporvement in the speed here and across other tunnel sections between Liverpool Street and Newbury Park...

 

[Brooke]

There is a fan shaft with emergency staircase to street level located between Mile End and Stratford at Old Ford. Obviously not for passenger use though.

Is there? Never knew that - is that what the brick building is beside the A12 around Wick Lane?

 

[boiledbeans2]

The section between Liverpool Street & Stratford on the Central is extremely loud, such that normal conversation isn't possible.

Is it because of higher speeds?

If i'm not in a hurry (and because i'm a train enthusiast), i'll usually pop upstairs for the NR trains instead to get between those 2 stations.

 

[Jimini]

The section between Liverpool Street & Stratford on the Central is extremely loud, such that normal conversation isn't possible.

Is it because of higher speeds?

If i'm not in a hurry (and because i'm a train enthusiast), i'll usually pop upstairs for the NR trains instead to get between those 2 stations.

Stratford <> Leyton, and Leytonstone <> Wanstead far noisier IMO. Also around Bank for obvious reasons.

 

[Central]

Old Ford fan shaft was an official emergency exit at least until 62TS was withdrawn.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there? Never knew that - is that what the brick building is beside the A12 around Wick Lane?

It‘s possibly the site immediately next to the mainline railway according to the property asset register map at:

ArcGIS Web Application

www.arcgis.com

…a useful site someone linked to a while ago when discussing White City.

 

[Enthusiast]

Not sure if it’s true or not but I did once hear that one of the options investigated with the construction of the Victoria line was for the Victoria line to have a station at Manor House (as indeed it passes through the existing station footprint and shares an electricity substation with the Piccadilly line at this location), and the Piccadilly line to run in new tunnels, with a new station at Harringay Green Lanes, but also offering a more direct route than going via Manor House.

Included in the plans for the Piccadilly Line Cockfosters extension was a station between Manor House and Turnpike Lane at the junction of Green Lanes and St Ann's Road in Harringay. But the idea was abandoned as it was felt that the bus and tram service at this point was adequate. However, a 'Ventilation Station', in similar architectural style to tube stations of the time was provided at the site, and is visible today.

 

[Brooke]

It‘s possibly the site immediately next to the mainline railway according to the property asset register map at:

ArcGIS Web Application

www.arcgis.com

…a useful site someone linked to a while ago when discussing White City.


View attachment 112148

Cool, everyday a school day!

 

[Mojo]

Included in the plans for the Piccadilly Line Cockfosters extension was a station between Manor House and Turnpike Lane at the junction of Green Lanes and St Ann's Road in Harringay. But the idea was abandoned as it was felt that the bus and tram service at this point was adequate. However, a 'Ventilation Station', in similar architectural style to tube stations of the time was provided at the site, and is visible today.

I’ve never heard the term “Ventilation station” before! Vent shaft / fan shaft / intervention point (as appropriate for the location) being the terms used.

I am talking about a different proposal however, from the date of planning for the Victoria line, rather than in the original proposals for the initial construction of the line.

 

[Enthusiast]

I’ve never heard the term “Ventilation station” before! Vent shaft / fan shaft / intervention point (as appropriate for the location) being the terms used.

I am talking about a different proposal however, from the date of planning for the Victoria line, rather than in the original proposals for the initial construction of the line.

I've never heard that term anywhere else either, but it is definitely referred to as such in some of the sources I've seen:

Green Lanes Ventilation Station

The picture shows the ventilation station on the Piccadilly line between Manor House and Turnpike Lane stations. Note that it actually looks like a station, although its purpose is only ventilation…

anonw.com

Perhaps "station" should be in inverted commas.

Yes, I know you were referring to a different, later proposal for a station in Harringay but just thought I'd add some info about the original Piccadilly Line extension proposal, showing that the idea of a station in Harringay was not a new one. It is interesting that you mention that the Victoria Line proposal included constructing new Piccadilly Line tunnels between FP and Turnpike Lane with a better alignment avoiding Manor House. I'd never heard about that previously. I don't know whether it would have been "value for money". It is 3.3km from FP to TL. I don't know how much that might be reduced by "cutting the corner."

 

[swt_passenger]

Google finds quite a few references to “ventilation station”, eg in association with road tunnels of the 60s such as the Mersey and Tyne tunnels.

 

[REVUpminster]

When I worked at Mile End the keys for the ventilation shaft were kept in the supervisors (then a Station master) office and periodically a group of staff would go by road and go down the shaft as a training exercise.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Old Ford fan shaft was an official emergency exit at least until 62TS was withdrawn.

Was the change of rolling stock relevant to its change of use? Or is it just that it was thought an exit was no longer needed for some reason [why the change?], but it was kept for ventilation, and this happened around the time of the change of stock?

 

[Dave W]

Included in the plans for the Piccadilly Line Cockfosters extension was a station between Manor House and Turnpike Lane at the junction of Green Lanes and St Ann's Road in Harringay. But the idea was abandoned as it was felt that the bus and tram service at this point was adequate. However, a 'Ventilation Station', in similar architectural style to tube stations of the time was provided at the site, and is visible today.

This abandonment probably led to the Victoria Line Manor House proposals Mojo refers to.

I lived about two minutes walk from that ventilation building until Feb 2021. My experience was Manor House swallowed massive numbers of passengers from along the Green Lanes corridor - mostly coming by 29/141 bus.

There has been a large development of some pretty hideous looking flats on the land next to the ventilation building, but it was entirely retained.

 

[swt_passenger]

When I worked at Mile End the keys for the ventilation shaft were kept in the supervisors (then a Station master) office and periodically a group of staff would go by road and go down the shaft as a training exercise.

Can you remember what there was at track level, and is anything visible from passing trains?
I assume there is not much, probably less than you can see at some evacuation points.

 

[Lewlew]

Can you remember what there was at track level, and is anything visible from passing trains?
I assume there is not much, probably less than you can see at some evacuation points.

You won't see much from a moving train but here's a diagram.

Note that the shaft is on the westbound side of the tunnels and not between them.

 

[swt_passenger]

You won't see much from a moving train but here's a diagram.

Note that the shaft is on the westbound side of the tunnels and not between them.

Thanks a lot.