Why does LU retrieve items during operational hours?

[ten7]

Why do London Underground retrieve items from the track during operational hours?

I’ve seen cases where it can take a while to retrieve items due to where they’ve landed and having to stop trains to do so. This can cause a domino effect on trains behind which can add up and hence delays to journeys. Why don’t they just wait until the last train has passed?

 

[rebmcr]

Why do London Underground retrieve items from the track during operational hours?

I’ve seen cases where it can take a while to retrieve items due to where they’ve landed and having to stop trains to do so. This can cause a domino effect on trains behind which can add up and hence delays to journeys. Why don’t they just wait until the last train has passed?

Because a passenger taking matters into their own hands is even more disruptive.

 

[notverydeep]

Because a passenger taking matters into their own hands is even more disruptive.

I've seen someone jump into the pit for what appeared to be a pound coin (on the Victoria line!) admittedly late evening. It might be fairly hard to persuade someone who has just dropped a £500 iPhone down the gap, that it their precious phone will still be there at the end of the day and that they would get it back, so I am not surprised that the risk assessment says go for the lesser of two evils...

 

[ten7]

Because a passenger taking matters into their own hands is even more disruptive.

Network Rail doesn’t follow the same policy. Why not? I’ve seen Network rail tell someone to come back later.

 

[bramling]

Why do London Underground retrieve items from the track during operational hours?

I’ve seen cases where it can take a while to retrieve items due to where they’ve landed and having to stop trains to do so. This can cause a domino effect on trains behind which can add up and hence delays to journeys. Why don’t they just wait until the last train has passed?

If items aren’t recovered, the consequences can be worse if a passenger decides to do it themselves.

It doesnt help that this sort of thing tends to take longer nowadays, especially with traction current now being required to be switched off it a member of staff climbs down onto the track. In times past this sort of thing could be dealt with very quickly - a train would simply be stopped where required, member of staff takes possession of driver’s key, jump down, jump back up, give key back, and train moves, all done and dusted within a minute. This simply doesn’t happen now.

 

[Dave W]

And the issue persists if you leave it.

Owner of said item might leave disappointed or expecting to get it back later. Over the next 12 hours several thousand people will wait on the platform. Even if you talk the owner out of getting on the track, are you going to talk down every single magpie out there who fancies an easy iPhone? Best to recover it at the time IMO.

 

[43066]

Network Rail doesn’t follow the same policy. Why not? I’ve seen Network rail tell someone to come back later.

NR or TOC staff?

It depends on where. In DC areas it’s unlikely you’ll be able to get the current switched off and platform staff will generally be prohibited from retrieving items off the track, due to risk of contact with the conductor rail or live shoe gear on rolling stock.

TOC staff members in non DC areas can sometimes retrieve items, again depending on location. As mentioned above the risk of a member of the public deciding to do it themselves has to be weighed up.

 

[Falcon1200]

Network Rail doesn’t follow the same policy. Why not? I’ve seen Network rail tell someone to come back later.

The nearest suitably trained staff might be many, many miles away, considering the huge geographical difference between the LU and Network Rail systems.

 

[matt_world2004]

I've seen stuff retrieved from the track by LU staff before. They usually caution the train in to halfway through the platform and use the litter picker to retrieve the phone while a train is half way in the platform and halfway out. Blocking the track.

They don't turn off the traction current

 

[bluegoblin7]

It isn’t a litter picker, but is a stick with a sticky pad on the bottom and is fully insulated. Litter pickers are not insulated and generally have some level of metal.

Current does not have to be switched off when the Track Retrieval Device is in use, and the item is between the platform and the positive rail. If it is beyond the positive rail, or cannot be retrieved using the TRV, then current will be switched off. This happens on a regular basis.

 

[bramling]

I've seen stuff retrieved from the track by LU staff before. They usually caution the train in to halfway through the platform and use the litter picker to retrieve the phone while a train is half way in the platform and halfway out. Blocking the track.

They don't turn off the traction current

Not when they use the device, but the device can only be used in certain circumstances. It also takes longer to use the device than to jump down, but the latter practice is no longer considered acceptable with traction current live.

 

[skyhigh]

Network Rail doesn’t follow the same policy. Why not?

I must have imagined seeing NR staff retrieve items from the track at stations they manage then, with the owners standing watching?

 

[matt_world2004]

It isn’t a litter picker, but is a stick with a sticky pad on the bottom and is fully insulated. Litter pickers are not insulated and generally have some level of metal.

Current does not have to be switched off when the Track Retrieval Device is in use, and the item is between the platform and the positive rail. If it is beyond the positive rail, or cannot be retrieved using the TRV, then current will be switched off. This happens on a regular basis.

Yeah I was just using the term litter picker because that is what it does look like

 

[AndrewE]

I must have imagined seeing NR staff retrieve items from the track at stations they manage then, with the owners standing watching?

Maybe another example of staff enforcing rules with discretion! Very good on the spot - and to be applauded - and for the railway's reputation, but bad news for staff in different locations where it is not a go-er, who risk getting accused of being "jobsworths!"

I recently came across a police statement or interview with a senior police person who emphasised that discretion was essential in enforcing the law.

Mind you, I do remember reading the results of some sociology research which said that in almost exactly similar circumstances middle class kids would get a ticking off, whereas poor/working class/ council estate kids would get formal treatment with a record of some sort which would bring the sky down on them another time.
A difficult call, glad I don't have to make it.
A

 

[Tube driver]

To be honest it’s a very quick operation to retrieve a phone or whatever from the track that it barely interferes with the service. Train will be told to stop short to provide protection, keys off, sticky stick thingy retrieves the phone and service resumes.

Better than the alternative of punters retrieving their own phones when told to come back the next day.

 

[Taunton]

I'm sure I recall a TV programme, some years ago, a documentary about the Underground, which showed the procedure on a Tube platform with something dropped on the track, where, between trains, they "turned the power off", hopped down after a train left, had it in a moment, and "turned the power back on" before the next one approached.

I always found this rather extraordinary, as if the power rails at the platform could be isolated through station controls. Anyone remember it?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Perhaps Underground management didn't want to advertise the fact that staff were going down on to a live track.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Back in the day - even before litter pickers - in the right geographical area - a hook switch pole , on most stations did the job nicely. Subject of course to what the Rule Book defined as a "clear understanding" .....remember recovering ladies handbags and shoes on several occasions with no recorded delays....

 

[bramling]

Back in the day - even before litter pickers - in the right geographical area - a hook switch pole , on most stations did the job nicely. Subject of course to what the Rule Book defined as a "clear understanding" .....remember recovering ladies handbags and shoes on several occasions with no recorded delays....

Too much CCTV nowadays!

 

[Craig1122]

General rule of thumb is that if it can be retrieved with the TRD then it will be. If not then after close of service is preferred to avoid switching traction current off. It's a judgement call depending on the exact situation though. For example what the item is and how visible it is.

As people have said up thread a retrieval causes less delay than when passengers decide to DIY. It's remarkable how many people are prepared to jump down and risk their life without even having spoken to station staff. Ear pods are currently a particular bain.

Big difference between LU and NR is that almost every LU station is staffed 24/7 by someone with the necessary competencies to go track side if need be. Even at staffed NR stations the odds are this won't be the case.

Perhaps Underground management didn't want to advertise the fact that staff were going down on to a live track.

Without having seen the programme in question this is probably the correct answer. Let's just say things are a lot stricter on that front these days.

 

[su31]

A few years ago, a customer dropped a £5 note on the eastbound track at Marble Arch Tube station in the middle of the morning peak. I was the Supervisor on duty and made arrangements to retrieve the £5 note because the customer was threatening to access the track himself to retrieve it.
Train stopped at my stop signal. Driver's key obtained. Traction Current discharged. £5 retrieved and returned to awaiting customer. Key returned. Traction Current switched on. Train wouldn't move.
A train was stalled between Lancaster Gate and Marble Arch and couldn't do a wrong direction move as there was another train in Lancaster Gate's platform. The stalled train was worked forward and detrained through the stricken train. The Central line was then suspended between White City and Liverpool Street for around 90 minutes. The stricken train was eventually propelled from the rear as a 16 carriage train. All for a £5 note.
Fortuitously, it wasn't my fault and I'm still here to tell the tale!

 

[Tangent]

A few years ago, a customer dropped a £5 note on the eastbound track at Marble Arch Tube station in the middle of the morning peak. I was the Supervisor on duty and made arrangements to retrieve the £5 note because the customer was threatening to access the track himself to retrieve it.
Train stopped at my stop signal. Driver's key obtained. Traction Current discharged. £5 retrieved and returned to awaiting customer. Key returned. Traction Current switched on. Train wouldn't move.
A train was stalled between Lancaster Gate and Marble Arch and couldn't do a wrong direction move as there was another train in Lancaster Gate's platform. The stalled train was worked forward and detrained through the stricken train. The Central line was then suspended between White City and Liverpool Street for around 90 minutes. The stricken train was eventually propelled from the rear as a 16 carriage train. All for a £5 note.
Fortuitously, it wasn't my fault and I'm still here to tell the tale!

If I had been staff in that situation, I would have been tempted to give the passenger £5 from my own pocket and retrieve the specific note later. But that might set a bad precedent...

 

[bluegoblin7]

If I had been staff in that situation, I would have been tempted to give the passenger £5 from my own pocket and retrieve the specific note later. But that might set a bad precedent...

You’d also no doubt end up £5 out of pocket, either through the wind from the running of trains or from someone else jumping down to get it. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been made aware of a customer jumping down to get lost property, or indeed an opportunist individual recovering someone else’s.

With my service control hat firmly on, it’s almost always better to temporarily halt the service and retrieve the item and recover a slight delay, than risk a much bigger suspension.

In the case of the above suspension, it’s likely the fault would have occurred sooner rather than later anyway.

 

[Towers]

A firm "clear understanding" with said passenger that they would be leaving the station with a police escort if they attempted to retrieve their fiver would hopefully be suitably disuasive in the same circumstances now!

TOC policy will likely vary, but at locations that I'm aware of the policy is that litter pickers may be used from platform level by station staff, having obtained an appropriate line block if the platform is not already occupied. This doesn't apply on DC lines if a train is present, due to the risk of the pickers coming into contact with traction shoes. Station staff are not PTS trained, and cannot access the track.

I'm reminded of the infamous Lymington Town incident....!*

*for those who may not be aware, a member of station staff accessed the track to retrieve an item belonging to a passenger. I don't recall how it came to the attention of management - possibly even via a well meaning commendation from the passenger?? - but he was, I think, eventually dismissed? It was a while ago now!

** I have Googled, and it was in fact a dumped shopping trolley the he accessed the line to remove! Same principle though (sort of!)

 

[Craig1122]

A firm "clear understanding" with said passenger that they would be leaving the station with a police escort if they attempted to retrieve their fiver would hopefully be suitably disuasive in the same circumstances now!

TOC policy will likely vary, but at locations that I'm aware of the policy is that litter pickers may be used from platform level by station staff, having obtained an appropriate line block if the platform is not already occupied. This doesn't apply on DC lines if a train is present.

Trouble is you can tell that passenger but it doesn't stop the next person on the platform from jumping down which can and does happen.

I'm surprised the LU track retrieval device hasn't become standard across the whole UK network. Designed explicitly for that purpose and includes various attachments. It must have collectively saved hundreds of hours of delays and staff time as well as making a significant contribution to safety. In fact I'd struggle to think of any other H&S intervention which has been that cheap & effective

 

[Geogregor]

I'm surprised the LU track retrieval device hasn't become standard across the whole UK network. Designed explicitly for that purpose and includes various attachments. It must have collectively saved hundreds of hours of delays and staff time as well as making a significant contribution to safety. In fact I'd struggle to think of any other H&S intervention which has been that cheap & effective

Oh, absolutely. The current process where we have to call Network Rail to send someone to retrieve items, usually hours later, is a joke. It always causes aggravation when I try to explain process to the passengers. I'm sure there were situations when people ignored my advice once I departed platform.

 

[Titfield]

On a heritage railway I have volunteered for, we frequently get small items falling onto the track. We ring the signaller to advise him / her of the issue and then having ensured that no movement will occur either use the litter picker or go down onto the track to retrieve. Having retrieved item we ring signaller and advise that normal service can be resumed.

There is nothing more compelling than a small person being totally inconsolable because teddy has fallen onto the track. No item has greater value than a much loved teddy.

 

[Speed43125]

This rather contrasts with an experience on the Shanghai Metro, I'd dropped my metro card (accepted all shanghai public transport incl. taxis) onto the track as the platform screen doors are half height on the central section of Line 2.

The staff were very keen to help - no doubt to prevent me trying to reach down myself - and with a an extended litter picked, upon one train's departure, manually released the platform screen doors and reached down for my card. A rather large crowd gathered where they'd opened the doors I might add! Card back and all done and dusted with seemingly no delay or protection from the following train.

Obviously the procedure may well be different by virtue of overhead AC alone.

 

[Rogmi]

Stockwell Northern line NB, clear line of site to platform. Some years ago, as I was approaching the platform, person jumped jumped onto the track to get something from the pit area, then got back onto platform. Approached with whistle blowing and emergency brake. Managed to stop just past where he was standing on the platform and gave him a mouthfull. The train would likely have hit him if he'd falled back from the platform. Meanwhile staff arrived, and they got the transport police from their office above and they dealt with him. Turned out that he saw a £20 note on the track and decided to take it.

There are many types of "near miss" that drivers have to put up with, eliminating potential near misses through instant property retrieval helps. You can guarantee that anything that looks the least bit valuable will not still be on the track at close of traffic!