Why does Malton have one platform?

[Harpers Tate]

Oh, I see. Well the TSR is for hourly services York <> Malton <> Scarborough and "Reasonable endeavours shall be made to provide services at approximately half-hourly intervals with services provided by the Transpennine Express franchisee."

 

[HowardGWR]

How about a Brunellian solution, as in the original Reading station?

 

[MarkyT]

How about a Brunellian solution, as in the original Reading station?

With a scissors in the middle like Cambridge? See concept C:
http://www.townend.me/files/malton.pdf

 

[swissrailpassion]

The pinch points on the line are the single ended points at York (an economy to avoid a scissor) and the single platform at Malton. Trains are timed to arrive and depart within minutes of each other at both locations, this means late running can cause more delay. With just one tph each way it is surprising how just a little delay can have knock on effects across 40 miles of route (YRK - SCA) and on across the Pennines. The turnaround at Scarborough is not generous as the train has to be cleaned and reservations set up. This means passengers are often not admitted to trains until 5 minutes before departure.

 

[scarby]

I see. Obviously if the trains run through to Scarborough operation would be easier - it was the way some news stories I read gave the impression it would be a "York-Malton service".

As has been pointed out, Malton is still a pinch point - last week was exceptional for weather, but only yesterday the 08.05 Scarborough-bound service was 27 late at Malton and was terminated there (seemed quite a harsh decision but I don't know the full details) and spent 41 minutes in the station before heading off back on the scheduled York-bound service.

MarkyT - some very smart ideas there!

 

[Harpers Tate]

.....only yesterday the 08.05 Scarborough-bound service was 27 late at Malton and was terminated there (seemed quite a harsh decision but I don't know the full details) and spent 41 minutes in the station before heading off back on the scheduled York-bound service.

RTT has it ~30 late for much of its journey. Now if there were a Northern service due to leave York around 30 minutes after this was due (which is the planned pattern), it seems plausible that the decision to turn it round short might well have been made as at York, rather than Malton.

In any case, I really can't see the HUGE issue with the layout at Malton for the proposed service pattern.

 

[yorkguy]

Once a a Scarborough bound TPE service goes over 30 minutes late, it risks either being terminated at York or occasionally turned at Malton. I guess it’s an efficient way of catching up the return service. But it can leave a two hour gap on the already sparse service. When returning from London a couple of weeks ago, the cancellation of an evening Scarborough service meant the wait at York was longer than my journey from Kings X

 

[Goldie]

Cancelling a delayed Scarborough service is one of those decisions which makes a lot of sense in one way, but in another equally valid way makes the entire railway travelling population of Scarbs periodically hate TPE, Network Rail and anyone even tangentially associated with either organisation.

 

[DPWH]

With a scissors in the middle like Cambridge? See concept C:
http://www.townend.me/files/malton.pdf

The present problem is with conflicting paths particularly if one train is delayed.

All of the "one long platform" approaches suffer at least to some extent from this problem.

My guess is that when considering the costs for reopening the platform with a new footbridge and lift, that is going to be cheaper than any solution involving a lot of additional crossings and signalling. It's also going to be safer as up trains won't use any of the same track as the down trains do.

 

[greyman42]

I don't think safety is compromised either way.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Out of interest, does anyone know how many other one-platform stations have greater passenger usage than Malton (354,000 16/17 ORR estimate)?

Thought Aberystwyth might be a contender, but 327k for 2016/17 is lower than expected.

 

[Xavi]

Both Digby & Sowton and Exmouth I would guess.

 

[DPWH]

I don't think safety is compromised either way.

The probability of a collision or derailment is low in a properly designed and signalled system - which of course any system will have to be. However the risk of both derailments and collisions between trains are is both orders of magnitude lower still on a simple plain double track system, in which there are (1) no facing turnouts and (2) no possibility of a SPADding train running into one coming the other way.

 

[mike57]

The problem is that the single platform contributes to delays more than it should, this is due to the fact that the Malton > Scarborough > sensible turn round time > Malton is just over 60 mins. This means that I dont see how the problem will go away unless TPE had a extra unit in service, and Northern will have the same problem as well when their service starts

TPE performance on this route has been dire since the new year anyway. Last week (not the snow week) I had 3 20-25 mins late running and one 10min, out of 8 journeys, the previous week I gave up and used the car as after the snow the service deteriorated into a every 2 hours ish York shuttle, and the week before that I had 2 delay repays and one taxi as I missed the last train down the coast due to late running.

Malton is quite a busy station for a small market town, with a significant commuter flow into York and West Yorkshire as well as the long distance travelers. In an ideal world there there would be two platforms but I cant this happening in the foreseeable future. I do think the split platform with a crossover in the middle idea has merit, there is a significant length of out of use platform as the Scarborough end, and it would ensure that even if the two services arrive together they can both unload and load and any delay introduced would be minimal. Surely the safety aspects could be addressed, speeds are low anyway on the approach (20mph I think), and the work involved should be doable.

 

[Harpers Tate]

For 2x per hour each way (which is what is proposed following Northern's final tranche of enhancements due 2019) any such "solution" is, IMO, a woefully over-engineered solution to a problem that exists for a large part only in the minds of theorists. Whilst I don't deny that there will be late running, especially on eastbound services that originate before York, the usage/capacity relationship at Malton (as it is now) vs. the usage/capacity on, for example, the Transpennine route west of Leeds, is miniscule. With the 1x per hour pattern at the moment, this station and the relatively short stretch of (in effect) single track through it remains devoid of any use for something like 50 minutes in every hour. Add Northern's additional services and there is still something like 20 minutes in every 30 with no traffic. That seems to me to offer a far greater degree of resilience than on many other parts of the network.

 

[edwin_m]

As long as the turnaround time at Scarborough is long enough to recover a delay to a Down train waiting for an Up at Malton, the effect of the delay is confined to the Scarborough branch. The operating policy should be to give priority at Malton to the York-bound train if a conflict occurs.

 

[yorkguy]

Interesting that the May timetable change has Scarborough bound trains arriving Malton at 08 past the hour, and Liverpool bound at 11 past the hour, so the crossover window is even tighter than it is now (currently around 8 minutes)

 

[Spartacus]

That's gonna be tight for doing the 68s for a spin to Malton & back!

 

[MarkyT]

The turnround margin at Scarborough is reduced too so any inbound delay is more likely to lead to an outbound late departure. I'm thinking a simple conventional second side platform with new accessible bridge could be the best option to avoid junction complexity. Maybe a second public entrance and car park through the railway club site on the up side as well. Pointwork could be reduced to a simple crossover at the York end for reversals.

 

[Senex]

Interesting that the May timetable change has Scarborough bound trains arriving Malton at 08 past the hour, and Liverpool bound at 11 past the hour, so the crossover window is even tighter than it is now (currently around 8 minutes)

Isn't that asking for trouble? If an eastbound train is just a couple of minutes late, it's going to delay the westbound service, and whereas the eastbound is simply heading for Scarborough to terminate, the westbound has to be as close as possible to path to get sensibly through the busy York, Leeds, and Manchester areas.

 

[mike57]

Isn't that asking for trouble? If an eastbound train is just a couple of minutes late, it's going to delay the westbound service, and whereas the eastbound is simply heading for Scarborough to terminate, the westbound has to be as close as possible to path to get sensibly through the busy York, Leeds, and Manchester areas.

I think the timetable changes in May are going to be a disaster for the Scarborough line, to list a few problems from the latest timetable I have seen:

1. Apart from early mornings no direct trains to Man Pic, so a lot of journeys that are currently 1 change at Piccadilly will take probably at least 20 mins longer, probably more like 30 mins (to name a few journeys that I do regularly, Stockport, Chester, Warrington, Preston...)
2. Timetabling at Malton will make service even more unreliable
3. Connections at Seamer to Filey and points south will almost always result in 55 minute wait, as the new northern hourly service is times to leave Seamer at the same time as the train from York arrives, and the train from York is nearly always a few minutes late.
4. Commute time journeys to York in the morning now 06:42 then 07:38 from Scarborough (OK so earlier train at 06:00, but thats not going to help York/Leeds commuters)

People in Hull are already unhappy at the changes (Look North earlier in the week, MP was complaining that service will be worse) I think people in Scarborough are going to be of the same mind. I'm expecting the A64 to get even busier in a morning.

 

[Spartacus]

1. Apart from early mornings no direct trains to Man Pic, so a lot of journeys that are currently 1 change at Piccadilly will take probably at least 20 mins longer, probably more like 30 mins (to name a few journeys that I do regularly, Stockport, Chester, Warrington, Preston...)

Wouldn't it be easier to change at Huddersfield for the train 4 minutes behind? Admittedly little help for Warrington, but then it's never going to be.

 

[mike57]

Wouldn't it be easier to change at Huddersfield for the train 4 minutes behind? Admittedly little help for Warrington, but then it's never going to be.

The trouble is every change is another point where disruption can lead to missed connections and with current TPE performance that's a regular event. With the upcoming changes the service from Scarborough and Hull will be worse for a lot of journeys, with no improvement to the remaining journeys. So TPE can tell us it will be better, but as a regular user I have looked at the May changes and a lot of passengers will be worse off and I have yet to speak to anyone who will benefit.

 

[Spartacus]

The trouble is every change is another point where disruption can lead to missed connections and with current TPE performance that's a regular event. With the upcoming changes the service from Scarborough and Hull will be worse for a lot of journeys, with no improvement to the remaining journeys. So TPE can tell us it will be better, but as a regular user I have looked at the May changes and a lot of passengers will be worse off and I have yet to speak to anyone who will benefit.

What I mean is that there's no need for it to take 20/30 minutes more.

Dewsbury get's it's regular long distance trains to Newcastle, Middlesbrough and Manchester Airport back which I'm pleased about. Believe me, I don't think there's any real need for the 6th path an hour which is driving all the changes, but I don't think it's worked out as bad as it could be, even Hull's semi fasts only take on average 5 minutes more than the expresses currently do.

Anyway, that's all nothing about Malton's platform is it? Given the timetable plans at Malton I expect that a lot of the time when a Scarborough service is a bit late it'll be held for a right time York one, although that would bowl people hoping to get a 68 to Malton for a 68 back.

 

[The Planner]

Isn't that asking for trouble? If an eastbound train is just a couple of minutes late, it's going to delay the westbound service, and whereas the eastbound is simply heading for Scarborough to terminate, the westbound has to be as close as possible to path to get sensibly through the busy York, Leeds, and Manchester areas.

It is compliant, but it could be asking for trouble as the up trains have 1½ minutes in them to keep the margin, ergo the up train is possibly going to sit outside or be crawling into Malton. There is enough hiding in the York and Leeds dwells though to probably mitigate it.

 

[swissrailpassion]

The threats to performance are the the close times at which trains pass at York and at Malton and the short turnaround time in Scarborough. The new TT makes these threats more of an operating problem even with slightly late running.
Single track at York and Malton is ok if the trains are comfortably timed to pass on the other 38 miles of double track. It's all about saving a unit and therefore risking reputation.

 

[mike57]

The threats to performance are the the close times at which trains pass at York and at Malton and the short turnaround time in Scarborough. The new TT makes these threats more of an operating problem even with slightly late running.
Single track at York and Malton is ok if the trains are comfortably timed to pass on the other 38 miles of double track. It's all about saving a unit and therefore risking reputation.

Which comes back to a comment of mine in the main TPE thread, TPE now have two trains per hour Newcastle York, on a route that is already well served and they then try to 'economise' on the Hull and Scarborough routes, they should be concentrating on getting their key route i.e. York - Man running reliably, with sufficient rolling stock to provide 6 coaches minimum, and then concentrate on the routes where they are the main or only service provider. To be honest I am expecting chaos after the timetable change.

Passengers from Newcastle have a good choice of services, if you miss one you are not going to be waiting an hour at most times of the day, but if you miss the Scarborough train you have an hour to wait until Northern start their York Scarborough service

 

[IanXC]

1. Apart from early mornings no direct trains to Man Pic, so a lot of journeys that are currently 1 change at Piccadilly will take probably at least 20 mins longer, probably more like 30 mins (to name a few journeys that I do regularly, Stockport, Chester, Warrington, Preston...)

You seem to be overlooking the fact that (certainly by the December timetable change) you will be able to change at Manchester Victoria for Chester, Warrington and Preston. Admittedly Stockport does not have a good option from Victoria.

 

[mike57]

You seem to be overlooking the fact that (certainly by the December timetable change) you will be able to change at Manchester Victoria for Chester, Warrington and Preston. Admittedly Stockport does not have a good option from Victoria.

Preston is probably my most frequent journey at the moment, and likely to be so for the next 12 months. Tried to see what my options were but there is no worthwhile info yet. Based on current timetable Man Vic to Preston direct is 55m and fastest journey is 47m (1 journey, average seems to be around 55m with a change at Salford Crescent or Man Ox Rd.) Compare that with current 42min 1 per hour, which departs P14 Man Pic 8 mins after Scarborough train gets in to P14, and one 30 mins later if Scarborough train is late in. so looks like 15min extra journey time plus likely to be an extra change with the potential for disruption that brings. Once times are published I'll do a more worthwhile comparison, and I think EVERY journey involving a change in Manchester will take longer post May, so when TPE try to tell us they are making improvements I am cynical.

 

[geoffk]

Assuming the theoretical scheduling of the Northern services (note - Scarborough <> York; not Scarborough <> Malton) is offset from the existing pattern by 30 minutes in each direction, by my reckoning that still allows a massive amount of leeway for late running. If all runs to time, the station, platform and single track are wholly unoccupied for something close to 20 minutes in every 30 minute period. That's ~20 minutes' worth of spare capacity to allow the movement of delayed trains. How that can manifest out into huge compounded delays and curtailment of services at Malton, I'm struggling to comprehend.

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