Why Does TfW Run This Train Without Passengers?

[Envoy]

On Sunday mornings, TfW have a train (5W56) departing Cardiff Central at 9.10am and going non stop to Swansea to arrive at 10.08 yet it does not carry passengers. I have a photo of this train below as it is a Mk4 set.

Westbound from Cardiff on Sunday mornings, the situation is pretty dire. This morning (11 Feb 2023) iB43 departed at 8.06 to arrive Swansea at 9.02 formed of 2 153’s and a 2 coach 150 - which would later depart for Manchester. The next departure from CDF westbound was the more comfortable Mk4 train mentioned above - with no passengers. This would have been ideal as not long after its arrival in Swansea, GWR have 1B06 departing Swansea at 10.27 for Carmarthen (arr.11.10). So, any Cardiff passengers wanting to catch the 10.27 from Swansea to Carmarthen have to depart Cardiff on the 8.06 resulting in a long hang around in Swansea whilst a more convenient train runs empty. How bonkers is that?

The situation is even worse for people trying to go west of Carmarthen on Sunday mornings with the earliest from Swansea being 1B96 departing Swansea at 10.43 for Fishguard.

Of course, what is really needed on Sunday mornings is a train leaving Cardiff around 8.30 that goes right through to the Pembrokeshire branches.

 

[Llandudno]

When the loco fails and the train is cancelled there is no need to pay delay repay as no passengers!

Much safer running the ever reliable 150/153s…!

 

[317 forever]

So that nobody can claim Delay Repay if it is late or cancelled

 

[30907]

So that it can run without a guard?

 

[moonarrow458]

On Sunday mornings, TfW have a train (5W56) departing Cardiff Central at 9.10am and going non stop to Swansea to arrive at 10.08 yet it does not carry passengers. I have a photo of this train below as it is a Mk4 set.

Westbound from Cardiff on Sunday mornings, the situation is pretty dire. This morning (11 Feb 2023) iB43 departed at 8.06 to arrive Swansea at 9.02 formed of 2 153’s and a 2 coach 150 - which would later depart for Manchester. The next departure from CDF westbound was the more comfortable Mk4 train mentioned above - with no passengers. This would have been ideal as not long after its arrival in Swansea, GWR have 1B06 departing Swansea at 10.27 for Carmarthen (arr.11.10). So, any Cardiff passengers wanting to catch the 10.27 from Swansea to Carmarthen have to depart Cardiff on the 8.06 resulting in a long hang around in Swansea whilst a more convenient train runs empty. How bonkers is that?

Having had a look on RTT that does look like very poor planning from TFW, where they seem to have prioritised operational convenience running the train as ECS instead of as passenger service. As you rightly point out it leaves a 94 minute gap in westbound service from Cardiff towards Swansea (0806-0944), which is far from ideal, and likely leads to overcrowding on the previous and following services, especially for daytrippers and walkers. As you say running this train in service would connect with the 1027 GWR service from Swansea to Carmarthen.

The only thing i can suggest is to write an email to Transport for Wales, detailing the above points to them and making the case for this service to be converted from ECS to passnger service. The most important points ive written in bold above and i would really emphasise stressing those points. Likewise you could point out its a waste of taxpayers money running the service empty and putting it in service would increase journey oportunities and likely revenue too. I would leave out the bit about train types, TfW will not care about that at all, and it makes your argument seem less serious.

That's not to say that they'll necessarily listen though, but there have been cases in the past where indivudual passenger feedback has resulted in slight retimings to facilitate connections, extra stops, or ECS's converted to passenger service, so its definetely worth a try. If nothing changes from the next time tablechange, follow up see if they have it in consideration for future changes (timetable planning scales are long - it may not be possible to alter until DEC24 for example), but follow up and escalate if necessary. Sometimes it takes passenger engagement for worthwhile changes to happen. As i say no guarantees but worth a try. Perhaps if anyone has any contacts in TfW they should bring this issue to their attention.

 

[Envoy]

Having had a look on RTT that does look like very poor planning from TFW, where they seem to have prioritised operational convenience running the train as ECS instead of as passenger service. As you rightly point out it leaves a 94 minute gap in westbound service from Cardiff towards Swansea (0806-0944), which is far from ideal, and likely leads to overcrowding on the previous and following services, especially for daytrippers and walkers. As you say running this train in service would connect with the 1027 GWR service from Swansea to Carmarthen.

The only thing i can suggest is to write an email to Transport for Wales, detailing the above points to them and making the case for this service to be converted from ECS to passnger service. The most important points ive written in bold above and i would really emphasise stressing those points. Likewise you could point out its a waste of taxpayers money running the service empty and putting it in service would increase journey oportunities and likely revenue too. I would leave out the bit about train types, TfW will not care about that at all, and it makes your argument seem less serious.

That's not to say that they'll necessarily listen though, but there have been cases in the past where indivudual passenger feedback has resulted in slight retimings to facilitate connections, extra stops, or ECS's converted to passenger service, so its definetely worth a try. If nothing changes from the next time tablechange, follow up see if they have it in consideration for future changes (timetable planning scales are long - it may not be possible to alter until DEC24 for example), but follow up and escalate if necessary. Sometimes it takes passenger engagement for worthwhile changes to happen. As i say no guarantees but worth a try. Perhaps if anyone has any contacts in TfW they should bring this issue to their attention.

Many thanks for your detailed response backing up my comments about running this train as ECS and the massive 94 minute gap in services on the South Wales Main Line on Sunday mornings. Hopefully somebody in authority at TfW will be made aware of these comments and take action on the matter.

It is all the more galling that GWR have an IET leaving Swansea for Carmarthen about 10 minutes after this train arrives from Cardiff with no passengers.

 

[Spartacus]

So that it can run without a guard?

This was my first thought. I don't know TfW's crewing arrangements but the first available guard might well be the Swansea one. That said, I've known things like this start due to crewing, then remain the same even when crewing wasn't an issue because someone didn't notice. One TPE service used to appear to terminate short somewhere then carry on to it's normal destination ECS because the guard on board worked a services back from where it terminated. It was practically a relief so didn't really matter, but the situation of terminating to become as ECS to destination continued for a year after the guard's diagram was changed to work though to the final point, so could have remained in service.

 

[dk1]

Operational convenience.

 

[sd0733]

So that it can run without a guard?

In reality as there's no Guards based in Swansea and none in any other depot in the South with Mk4 competency it does seem unlikely to run without a Guard from Cardiff unless they work something else down from Cardiff first.

 

[berneyarms]

Does it really make that great a difference?

There is a GWR service not far behind it from Bristol Parkway that connects into the 10:43 to Fishguard which serves Carmarthen 15 mins later.

 

[Anonymous10]

Does it really make that great a difference?

There is a GWR service not far behind it from Bristol Parkway that connects into the 10:43 to Fishguard which serves Carmarthen 15 mins later.

It depends if they are paying a driver and guard at what point is it worth running it in service which might part subsidise the move?

I would also draw attention to the ecs move from Haverfordwest to Carmarthen at 2033 which leaves arrives from Swansea as a passenger service at 2017. Then upon arrival go Carmarthen forms the 2116 to Hereford.

 

[berneyarms]

It depends if they are paying a driver and guard at what point is it worth running it in service which might part subsidise the move?

I would also draw attention to the ecs move from Haverfordwest to Carmarthen at 2033 which leaves arrives from Swansea as a passenger service at 2017. Then upon arrival go Carmarthen forms the 2116 to Hereford.

I really meant from a passenger perspective.

There’s a GWR service leaving Cardiff at 09:42 to Swansea arriving at 10:35 offering an 8 minute connection into the 10:43 TfW service to Fishguard.

It’s only 15 mins later into Carmarthen and has a much shorter connection at Swansea than the ECS service ahead of it might offer if it were in service.

 

[Envoy]

The situation for anybody trying to get from Cardiff to Pembrokeshire on Sunday mornings is poor and really needs a re-think. It really is out of the question to make a Sunday day trip to Tenby for example - which would no doubt be popular in summer. Anybody who has a car to do such a trip would use it as the trains are hopeless.

The Welsh Government talk about an integrated transport policy but I have just spotted another missed opportunity. The first train into Carmarthen from Swansea on Sundays is GWR 1B06 - the one that I mentioned above that could be used by passengers not allowed on the ECS train from Cardiff. Anyway, 1B06 arrives Carmarthen at 11.10. THE BUS FOR ABERYSTWYTH departs Carmarthen at 11.04 - yes, just 6 minutes before the arrival of the first train from the east. You could not make it up. The next bus to Aberystwyth departs Carmarthen at 13.04.

 

[anthony263]

The situation for anybody trying to get from Cardiff to Pembrokeshire on Sunday mornings is poor and really needs a re-think. It really is out of the question to make a Sunday day trip to Tenby for example - which would no doubt be popular in summer. Anybody who has a car to do such a trip would use it as the trains are hopeless.

The Welsh Government talk about an integrated transport policy but I have just spotted another missed opportunity. The first train into Carmarthen from Swansea on Sundays is GWR 1B06 - the one that I mentioned above that could be used by passengers not allowed on the ECS train from Cardiff. Anyway, 1B06 arrives Carmarthen at 11.10. THE BUS FOR ABERYSTWYTH departs Carmarthen at 11.04 - yes, just 6 minutes before the arrival of the first train from the east. You could not make it up. The next bus to Aberystwyth departs Carmarthen at 13.04.

Really do need a better Sunday timetable better soacing between tfw and GWRs services between Cardiff abd Swansea would help.

That ECS to swansea really should be looked at .

I contacted TFW many times about the swanline service including of course the long promised hourly service. Had an email the other day back from them saying a number of the changes from.the December 2023 timetable consultation were delayed because of the lack.of class 197s etc but should be happening this December

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Really do need a better Sunday timetable better soacing between tfw and GWRs services between Cardiff abd Swansea would help.

That ECS to swansea really should be looked at .

I contacted TFW many times about the swanline service including of course the long promised hourly service. Had an email the other day back from them saying a number of the changes from.the December 2023 timetable consultation were delayed because of the lack.of class 197s etc but should be happening this December

Whilst TFW do appear to be having some issues with planning a usable timetable, another approach could be to form a partnership with strategically useful bus operators. It’s equally ludicrous that the bus departs 6 minutes before the first train arrives (on the basis that retiming a bus is generally easier than retiming a train.) In comparison, GWR have their Bus Branchlines partnerships programme which is going from strength to strength in Devon and Cornwall in particular, despite most bus routes being operated by non-Firstgroup companies. In Wales it should be easier still, as both train and bus run under the Transport for Wales brand! The Welsh gvt should be instructing TfW to set up a function to better integrate their rural connectivity between modes.

 

[30907]

Whilst TFW do appear to be having some issues with planning a usable timetable, another approach could be to form a partnership with strategically useful bus operators. It’s equally ludicrous that the bus departs 6 minutes before the first train arrives (on the basis that retiming a bus is generally easier than retiming a train.)

Except that the bus appears to be timed to connect well with the trains at Aberystwyth. Understandable, as the Cambrian runs an interval timetable.

 

[Krokodil]

There is a guard booked to work 5W56, the same one who works it back.

 

[Llandudno]

Except that the bus appears to be timed to connect well with the trains at Aberystwyth. Understandable, as the Cambrian runs an interval timetable.

Shh! Don’t tell TfW they will retime the buses to make sure they don’t connect with trains at Aberystwyth…!

 

[Envoy]

I see that indeed, as mentioned above, the bus from Carmarthen is timed to reach Aberystwyth just prior to the departure of an eastbound train. So, it would appear that all that needs to happen to make a viable Sunday morning journey from Cardiff to Aberystwyth is to allow passengers on what is now the empty (apart from guard & driver) TfW train & make it depart CDF around 9am instead of 9.10am. Then bring forward by a few minutes the GWR train from Swansea to Carmarthen so that it arrives before the Aberystwyth bus departs. Problem solved and all connected up including the Cambrian train from Aberystwyth.

It would also be ideal if TfW had a connecting train depart Carmarthen on Sundays at 11.05 for Pembrokeshire with perhaps a split at Whitland for south Pembrokeshire & north Pembrokeshire.

 

[Whistler40145]

Maybe the Guard is Swansea based?

 

[Lewisham2221]

Maybe the Guard is Swansea based?

Nope. See below:

In reality as there's no Guards based in Swansea and none in any other depot in the South with Mk4 competency it does seem unlikely to run without a Guard from Cardiff unless they work something else down from Cardiff first.

There is a guard booked to work 5W56, the same one who works it back.

 

[AdamWW]

In Wales it should be easier still, as both train and bus run under the Transport for Wales brand! The Welsh gvt should be instructing TfW to set up a function to better integrate their rural connectivity between modes.

I think there are even through tickets - integrated transport!

Just not when it comes to the timetable...

 

[Envoy]

I think there are even through tickets - integrated transport!

Just not when it comes to the timetable...

You are indeed correct. A day return from Cardiff to Aberystwyth is £21.20 if going via Carmarthen and using the bus link both ways. A day return from Cardiff to Aberystwyth going via change of train at Shrewsbury is £47.20 if using the same route both ways. That’s buying tickets in Advance. So, the bus link westerly route is MUCH CHEAPER than using the trains via Shrewsbury. The Shrewsbury route takes about 4 hours and the westerly route using the bus link is only around 15 minutes longer.

I also see that it is possible to do a circular tour of southern Wales going one way via Shrewsbury and the other way via the bus link from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen. As an example, buying in advance = £28.40 for the trains via Shrewsbury and £10.60 via the bus link in the west from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen - so, £39 for the complete circuit of southern Wales in a day. (Non Railcard prices).

You would think that they would market this as a complete round trip ticket with stops allowed at any of the places on the route - maybe over a couple of days? It would work wonders for tourism be it in remote parts of Wales, on The Marches or to Cardiff. Anyway, I digress here from my original posting about the empty coaching stock train on Sunday mornings.

 

[Spartacus]

I think there are even through tickets - integrated transport!

Just not when it comes to the timetable...

Ah, but if the fast buses connected better with the trains there's be less excuse to promote the very expensive for little gain rail reinstatement....

 

[Llandudno]

You are indeed correct. A day return from Cardiff to Aberystwyth is £21.20 if going via Carmarthen and using the bus link both ways. A day return from Cardiff to Aberystwyth going via change of train at Shrewsbury is £47.20 if using the same route both ways. That’s buying tickets in Advance. So, the bus link westerly route is MUCH CHEAPER than using the trains via Shrewsbury. The Shrewsbury route takes about 4 hours and the westerly route using the bus link is only around 15 minutes longer.

I also see that it is possible to do a circular tour of southern Wales going one way via Shrewsbury and the other way via the bus link from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen. As an example, buying in advance = £28.40 for the trains via Shrewsbury and £10.60 via the bus link in the west from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen - so, £39 for the complete circuit of southern Wales in a day. (Non Railcard prices).

You would think that they would market this as a complete round trip ticket with stops allowed at any of the places on the route - maybe over a couple of days? It would work wonders for tourism be it in remote parts of Wales, on The Marches or to Cardiff. Anyway, I digress here from my original posting about the empty coaching stock train on Sunday mornings.

Em! Marketing of public transport in Wales….?

 

[AdamWW]

Em! Marketing of public transport in Wales….?

Not sure what you mean.

There's a fair amount of TfW rail advertising outside of railway property.