Why does the current design of Curzon Street leave the station so under-utilised and disconnected?

[park hill]

To my (limited) understanding, there are two key problems facing the rail network in the West Midlands:

1) New Street is hopelessly overcrowded with no place to expand.

2) Once Curzon Street is built, it will be very poorly connected (yes, I am aware it sits right next to Moor Street and there are plans to extend the metro to it).

It seems as though a very obvious solution to both of these problems is to provide some platforms for regional and intercity trains for the line that passes RIGHT NEXT TO the Curzon Street site. This would improve connectivity, making it easier for more people to use HS2, and some services that currently serve New Street could stop at Curzon Street instead, providing additional capacity.

Instead of doing this, we have the promises of the West Midlands Hub and the West Midlands Metro solving problem 2 and (to a limited extent) alleviating problem 1.

Both of these projects will require a lot of money and are arguably worse than the solution above. It is also worth pointing out that if further growth occurs in terms of rail usage, there are few opportunities to add extra capacity in the future. Adding platforms at Curzon Street now would leave the metro and Moor Street projects available further down the line (had to get a pun in here somewhere...).

There are rightful arguments for not building a Hauptbahnhof-style station in a city like London, given a single station could not handle the capacity. But New Street and Moor Street currently facilitate ~30mil and ~5mil passengers respectively, while Liverpool Street in London handles ~80mil. With the vast area of land available, I can't see why Curzon Street couldn't handle the volume of both HS2 and local/regional passengers. Euston and OOC are expected to manage fine...

OOC has several lines passing nearby that haven't been incorporated into its design, but these are smaller, slightly removed lines like the Overground NLL which have a site already earmarked for an interconnection station and don't face problem 1.

I've tried to find a good reason for not implementing this idea but I can't find one. There are plenty of clever people overseeing HS2, so I must have missed something. Please enlighten me.

 

[Trainbike46]

A few questions:
- As you say Moor street is right next to Curzon street, and New street will be a short walk away. How is this "very poorly connected"?
- Does New Street need to expand? especially with Curzon street taking over some of the traffic (from Avanti services to HS2 services), there shouldn't be a need for extra platforms should there?
- you are aware that both Euston and and OOC also offers connections to other stations a short walk away, right? (think St Pancras, King's Cross, Old Oak lane on the WLL, etc.)
- Will your plan involve demolishing the Bull Ring? If so, I'm in favour! (this one is just because I'm petty against the bull ring)


I suspect the big reason is that HS2 is trying to minimise how much they touch the existing network, moving the entirety of New Street to Curzon street would be a massive project by itself

 

[Backroom_boy]

Last time I looked the walking routes between all the stations (current and future) definitely could be better, but hopefully this would be relatively to improve

 

[The Planner]

To my (limited) understanding, there are two key problems facing the rail network in the West Midlands:

1) New Street is hopelessly overcrowded with no place to expand.

2) Once Curzon Street is built, it will be very poorly connected (yes, I am aware it sits right next to Moor Street and there are plans to extend the metro to it).

It seems as though a very obvious solution to both of these problems is to provide some platforms for regional and intercity trains for the line that passes RIGHT NEXT TO the Curzon Street site. This would improve connectivity, making it easier for more people to use HS2, and some services that currently serve New Street could stop at Curzon Street instead, providing additional capacity.

Instead of doing this, we have the promises of the West Midlands Hub and the West Midlands Metro solving problem 2 and (to a limited extent) alleviating problem 1.

Both of these projects will require a lot of money and are arguably worse than the solution above. It is also worth pointing out that if further growth occurs in terms of rail usage, there are few opportunities to add extra capacity in the future. Adding platforms at Curzon Street now would leave the metro and Moor Street projects available further down the line (had to get a pun in here somewhere...).

There are rightful arguments for not building a Hauptbahnhof-style station in a city like London, given a single station could not handle the capacity. But New Street and Moor Street currently facilitate ~30mil and ~5mil passengers respectively, while Liverpool Street in London handles ~80mil. With the vast area of land available, I can't see why Curzon Street couldn't handle the volume of both HS2 and local/regional passengers. Euston and OOC are expected to manage fine...

OOC has several lines passing nearby that haven't been incorporated into its design, but these are smaller, slightly removed lines like the Overground NLL which have a site already earmarked for an interconnection station and don't face problem 1.

I've tried to find a good reason for not implementing this idea but I can't find one. There are plenty of clever people overseeing HS2, so I must have missed something. Please enlighten me.

It doesnt work for various reasons. The gradient in and out of Proof House tunnels, the proximity of New St station meaning that a train stopped at Proof House wouldn't allow another train behind it to leave New St. There is also the fact its on a viaduct without the room to have side and island platforms. If you did manage to overcome those hurdles, how are you accessing the station for users? Its not very well connected unless you bulldoze half of Digbeth (which is likely to be regenerated as a consequence of Curzon St)

 

[park hill]

- As you say Moor street is right next to Curzon street, and New street will be a short walk away. How is this "very poorly connected"?

I would argue that a 10-minute walk across 4 busy lanes of road, two sets of barriers and countless stairs and ramps just to get between the entrances is a poor connection.

- Does New Street need to expand? especially with Curzon street taking over some of the traffic (from Avanti services to HS2 services), there shouldn't be a need for extra platforms should there?

Yes, there should be more capacity released from removing Avanti services, but it's not a particularly significant amount. Timetables seem to suggest 1/8 services at New Street are AWC. It's not beyond reason to imagine XC doubling the frequency of their services and that alone would take you back to capacity again. There is a reason that the West Midlands Hub is being pushed along after all.

- you are aware that both Euston and and OOC also offers connections to other stations a short walk away, right? (think St Pancras, King's Cross, Old Oak lane on the WLL, etc.)

Anybody who has done the Moor Street/New Street or Euston/St Pancras walk will tell you that it is unideal at the best of times, and horrendous if you have young children/luggage etc. There's a reason a lot of thought has gone into a travelator/people mover between Euston and St Pancras.

Again, there is a reason there are plans for Moor Street to see significant upgrades (because Curzon Street needs better connectivity). It just seems bizarre that there is a wish to add platforms etc. to MS when they could be incorporated into the one that is being built brand new!

- Will your plan involve demolishing the Bull Ring? If so, I'm in favour! (this one is just because I'm petty against the bull ring)

Can't stand it either! To your last point, I'd like to be clear that I'm not suggesting you completely do away with New Street. I simply think it would be wise to add platforms at Curzon Street. If it wasn't a nightmare for passengers, they could almost be numbered 13, 14, .... etc. as if they were an extension of New Street!

It doesnt work for various reasons. The gradient in and out of Proof House tunnels, the proximity of New St station meaning that a train stopped at Proof House wouldn't allow another train behind it to leave New St. There is also the fact its on a viaduct without the room to have side and island platforms. If you did manage to overcome those hurdles, how are you accessing the station for users? Its not very well connected unless you bulldoze half of Digbeth (which is likely to be regenerated as a consequence of Curzon St)

I was imagining that local platforms could be placed underneath the HS2 ones. Add some track that branches off to the left as you come out of Proof House tunnels and put the platforms in the middle of the station on a lower level. This means you can retain the mainline to the South so that other services can pass freely.

The line is pretty much flat by the time you cross Fazeley street, so I don't see why you couldn't fit some platforms in East of there. Worst case scenario is keeping the platforms at Proof House tunnel level, then climbing after that.

 

[The Planner]

I was imagining that local platforms could be placed underneath the HS2 ones. Add some track that branches off to the left as you come out of Proof House tunnels and put the platforms in the middle of the station on a lower level. This means you can retain the mainline to the South so that other services can pass freely.

The line is pretty much flat by the time you cross Fazeley street, so I don't see why you couldn't fit some platforms in East of there. Worst case scenario is keeping the platforms at Proof House tunnel level, then climbing after that.

Are these dead end tracks (which you couldnt fit a junction in for as well as the curvature being so tight they would be about 10mph and also decimates the capacity into New St)?

 

[SynthD]

There will be a tram stop at about mid platform for Curzon, as there is now at New Street. Include it in through ticketing.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

It does seem bizarre, it always did from when the HS2 route was brought out in 2010 or whenever. I would have expected seamless interchange between HS2 and Cross Country services in Birmingham in the hope of poaching some XC passengers from the South West to hop onto HS2 for a reduced journey time to Manchester or Scotland.

 

[Austriantrain]

I would have planned Curzon Street larger still (on two levels) with chords to classic lines (Camp Hill, Tamworth/Nuneaton, Coventry, Perry Bar - Wolverhampton) and route all long distance and interregional traffic there. So Birmingham Hauptbahnhof indeed, albeit still as a Terminus. Once only „S-Bahn“ is left at New Street, it looks a lot more feasible to build four platform faces next to Curzon Street.

 

[Dr Hoo]

We are constantly reassured on these Forums that Birmingham New Street is one of the worst/nightmare/awkward stations to use in its present guise despite having a simple interchange bridge with lifts and escalators between all platforms. We should bear in mind that the great bulk of users of New Street are actually travelling to/from the centre of Birmingham - easily reached by a wide spread of largely level or lift/escalator assisted entrances/exits in all directions.

We are also constantly reminded that Curzon Street is going to be remote/in the middle of nowhere/difficult to access.

(Having been born and brought up in Birmingham and used New Street and Moor Street, etc. throughout various rebuilding and urban redevelopment I don't personally share these common views but hey-ho.)

I am still completely failing to appreciate the supposed benefits to the great majority of passengers of moving many of New Street's services to Curzon Street that is, err, remote/in the middle of nowhere/difficult to access.

Given that New Street has apparently signally failed to provide 'seamless' interchanges for many despite having one of most compact and straightforward layouts for a large station in the UK (Edinburgh Waverley, Clapham Junction, King's Cross/St Pancras or Manchester Piccadilly anyone?) I am also confused as to how some cobbled-together expansion of Curzon Street could possibly be any better. Let alone the effect on journey times, capacity, performance, resourcing and so on.

 

[HSTEd]

Well the major reason Curzon Street is underutilised is because HS2's later phases aren't happening.

As it is, you could probably divert quite a few trains that currently run into New Street into it if you liked.
Indeed, Birmingham-Manchester and other points north is likely substantially faster into Curzon Street than New Street.

However, the same capacity constraints near Handsacre that wreck HS1 for London journeys wreck it for Birmingham journeys.

 

[Chester1]

We are constantly reassured on these Forums that Birmingham New Street is one of the worst/nightmare/awkward stations to use in its present guise despite having a simple interchange bridge with lifts and escalators between all platforms. We should bear in mind that the great bulk of users of New Street are actually travelling to/from the centre of Birmingham - easily reached by a wide spread of largely level or lift/escalator assisted entrances/exits in all directions.

We are also constantly reminded that Curzon Street is going to be remote/in the middle of nowhere/difficult to access.

(Having been born and brought up in Birmingham and used New Street and Moor Street, etc. throughout various rebuilding and urban redevelopment I don't personally share these common views but hey-ho.)

I am still completely failing to appreciate the supposed benefits to the great majority of passengers of moving many of New Street's services to Curzon Street that is, err, remote/in the middle of nowhere/difficult to access.

Given that New Street has apparently signally failed to provide 'seamless' interchanges for many despite having one of most compact and straightforward layouts for a large station in the UK (Edinburgh Waverley, Clapham Junction, King's Cross/St Pancras or Manchester Piccadilly anyone?) I am also confused as to how some cobbled-together expansion of Curzon Street could possibly be any better. Let alone the effect on journey times, capacity, performance, resourcing and so on.

The Bordesley chords and associated upgrade of Moor Street Station would make a big difference to connectivity of Curzon Street. Just being next to Moor Street with its current services undermines the poor connectivity argument. The footbridge will make Moor Street an annexe of Curzon Street.

 

[DanNCL]

It does seem like a missed opportunity. A full scale replacement of New Street with platforms at Curzon Street wouldn’t make sense, but surely at least a single island platform on one pair of tracks for the Cross City Line would have made sense.

 

[Grimsby town]

Is Curzon Street perfectly connected? No. Is it badly connected? No. Yes HS2 will make some journeys more complicated but the UK is never going to have giant hubs that serve every service. The historical nature of the network and city centres just don't allow for it without spending ridiculous amounts of money and demolishing most of the city centre.

For people using the tram for an onward journey, connectivity will be no worse. Bus connectivity and rail services from Moor Street will be easier to access. Access to connecting rail services from New Street will be worse but that's going to be a minority of passengers and overall journey times will still be lower.

A good investment would be to make the walking route between Curzon Street and New Street better, perhaps even considering a new underground route. Platforms on the lines into New Street are just going to create a bottleneck and aren't going to be cheap or easy to build.

 

[MarkyT]

Access to connecting rail services from New Street will be worse but that's going to be a minority of passengers and overall journey times will still be lower.

A good investment would be to make the walking route between Curzon Street and New Street better, perhaps even considering a new underground route. Platforms on the lines into New Street are just going to create a bottleneck and aren't going to be cheap or easy to build.

It's no great distance. The St Martin's Queensway tunnel is already about the shortest route you could achieve. I believe that has been cleaned up and improved in recent years, but more might be done. I suggest removing all remaining vehicle traffic and installing moving walkways within the tunnel. Of course the Bullring would rather everyone spent half an hour going via the shopping centre instead, getting a little lost and needing refreshment or some other therapy purchases.

 

[The Planner]

Lots of people still saying that platforms should be placed at Proof House. Genuinely look at GoogleMaps and see how that works with the 1 in 50 ish gradient down into New St.

 

[HSTEd]

Perhaps, in hindsight, Curzon Street should have been an enormous stacked station complex that had New Street replacement platforms in the basement, then HS2 platforms on top.

But that would probably end up as expensive as Euston is likely to be and would have taken a lot longer to build!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Lots of people still saying that platforms should be placed at Proof House. Genuinely look at GoogleMaps and see how that works with the 1 in 50 ish gradient down into New St.

I mean surely you can just build them east of the incline?

 

[MarkyT]

I mean surely you can just build them east of the incline?

After a train climbs up onto the narrow brick viaduct it encounters junctions, a curve then more junctions while the Duddeston line climbs steeply over the fasts at Proof House, all within just over a quarter mile of the top of the incline. There really is nowhere practical to put platforms in the area on the existing lines, and even tying in new parallel platform lines would be very challenging with the density of junctions and signals.

 

[The Planner]

I mean surely you can just build them east of the incline?

After a train climbs up onto the narrow brick viaduct it encounters junctions, a curve then more junctions while the Duddeston line climbs steeply over the fasts at Proof House, all within just over a quarter mile of the top of the incline. There really is nowhere practical to put platforms in the area on the existing lines, and even tying in new parallel platform lines would be very challenging with the density of junctions and signals.

This, as well as the explanation I gave earlier in the thread that you lock up the exit from New St.

 

[FlyingPotato]

I have a question

So Curzon street and Moor Street are right next to eachother

Why not just let them share the same name as it makes the HS2 station seem more connected - Could be Curzon, Moor or just a brand new name for the both


And could make the idea of terminating XC trains in Moor Street seem more reasonable

 

[The Planner]

I have a question

So Curzon street and Moor Street are right next to eachother

Why not just let them share the same name as it makes the HS2 station seem more connected - Could be Curzon, Moor or just a brand new name for the both


And could make the idea of terminating XC trains in Moor Street seem more reasonable

That is like saying Kings Cross and St Pancras should be called the same name?

 

[Trainbike46]

I have a question

So Curzon street and Moor Street are right next to eachother

Why not just let them share the same name as it makes the HS2 station seem more connected - Could be Curzon, Moor or just a brand new name for the both


And could make the idea of terminating XC trains in Moor Street seem more reasonable

I agree that Curzon Street should have just been called Moor street, or maybe Moor Street HS

That is like saying Kings Cross and St Pancras should be called the same name?

Presumably, if you were building King's X today, next to a well-established St Pancras, you would just call it St Pancras, and number the platforms through?

I mean, the naming as it is, is due to the different companies building it, isn't it?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

That is like saying Kings Cross and St Pancras should be called the same name?

I don't think it is, they're both ends of two different routes. Not an important and established interchange between them. The Underground station, which performs entirely this function, is therefore logically named after both stations.

 

[swt_passenger]

I agree that Curzon Street should have just been called Moor street, or maybe Moor Street HS

I’ve said the same before. Calling it Curzon St seems to have been a way of hinting at reuse of the former Curzon St listed station building, which was fairly pointless as it isn’t functionally necessary, while at the same time encouraging the negative point of view that Curzon St is too far from New St.

 

[MarkyT]

I don't have a problem with two closely located terminals having separate names. If (say) alternate cross-country trains departed New St then Curzon St or Moor St for the same destinations, then that would be confusing however. As long as the separation of services by operator, service tier and destination is still clear and consistent, the terminal name can be useful signposting for those unfamiliar with locations. Having separate terminal names also helps with platform numbering which might become unwieldy otherwise. St Pancras and Kings Cross could be numbered in one series (0 to 23?) of the 'North London Knowledge Quarter International Superhub', but its more customer-friendly to at least indicate initially which group of train sheds they'll be departing from.

 

[ac6000cw]

We are constantly reassured on these Forums that Birmingham New Street is one of the worst/nightmare/awkward stations to use in its present guise despite having a simple interchange bridge with lifts and escalators between all platforms. We should bear in mind that the great bulk of users of New Street are actually travelling to/from the centre of Birmingham - easily reached by a wide spread of largely level or lift/escalator assisted entrances/exits in all directions.

We are also constantly reminded that Curzon Street is going to be remote/in the middle of nowhere/difficult to access.

(Having been born and brought up in Birmingham and used New Street and Moor Street, etc. throughout various rebuilding and urban redevelopment I don't personally share these common views but hey-ho.)

I am still completely failing to appreciate the supposed benefits to the great majority of passengers of moving many of New Street's services to Curzon Street that is, err, remote/in the middle of nowhere/difficult to access.

Given that New Street has apparently signally failed to provide 'seamless' interchanges for many despite having one of most compact and straightforward layouts for a large station in the UK (Edinburgh Waverley, Clapham Junction, King's Cross/St Pancras or Manchester Piccadilly anyone?) I am also confused as to how some cobbled-together expansion of Curzon Street could possibly be any better. Let alone the effect on journey times, capacity, performance, resourcing and so on.

I agree with all of that, also having been born and grown up in the area!

It's about 400-500m between New Street and Moor Street/Curzon St. stations i.e. not much further than you'd walk from the far end of a 400m HS2 train to the city centre end of Curzon St. station.

Just run a very frequent service of (electronically) guided driverless electric buses or build a people mover between the three stations for any interchange passengers who can't or don't want to walk.

 

[deltic]

I love how there are lots of ideas of spending even more money on HS2 when most of it is being canned for being to expensive and we still don't know if it will ever get to Euston. HS2 tried to strip out costs wherever possible and to keep the route as self contained as possible. Euston was effectively planned as two stations HS2 and Network Rail.

 

[FlyingPotato]

That is like saying Kings Cross and St Pancras should be called the same name?

I'd disagree as neither is technically a new build station, if one was built now, you would probably combine them to give the same name

But as they are both established, I'd keep them with their own names

 

[Halifaxlad]

Well the major reason Curzon Street is underutilised is because HS2's later phases aren't happening.

Exactly!

If you want to see Curzon St being used more then build the leg to EMP!