Why does this current U.K. Government hate rail so much.

[jojoseph72]

Ok so many of us can all agree that this government hates rail and post covid we are seeing them strangle the railways to death.

And I know that seems dumb but can people give reasoning as to why they hate rail so much? I’ve seen points here and there but never seen a thread , so I thought I’d start one.

I just want to (and I’m sure others want to) create a full image of why the current government hates railways so much.

 

[75A]

Is that why they're wasting so much money on HS2?

 

[dctraindriver]

IMO I don’t think hate is the right word, I think it’s a mixture of needing to cut costs and now unfortunately it’s the railways turn. Many other public services have been cut to the bone over the past 13 years while the TOCs escaped due to being under the franchised system. Not that I’m in favour of the cuts of course.

 

[Sorcerer]

If I had to take a guess, I would say it's because of what railways represent. Conservatism in western society tends to lean towards individualism and personal freedom (despite also somewhat misunderstanding their meanings), and as such they naturally favour the car over the train which is a timetabled form of transport for the collective which is against their aforementioned principles. Personal interests may also be involved since Ernest Marples, Minister of Transport during the Beeching cuts, allegedly had an interest in companies that were building motorways with government funding. That said I'm not fully sure we can say the current UK government is anti-rail more so than it leans towards total indifference at best. I'm not too sure about that though.

Is that why they're wasting so much money on HS2?

On the contrary they seem to be keen on cutting back on HS2 spending since it was under this government that the eastern leg was scrapped.

 

[43096]

Ok so we can all agree that this government hates rail and post covid we are seeing them strangle the railways to death.

No we can't all agree on that.

It's business - hate doesn't come in to it.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that Sunak didn't like having to financially support train services during Covid when there genuinely weren't many people using them.

Instead of being sensible and chalking it down to his own Government's policy, this has now become a psychological hang-up which seems to be taken out on rail passengers by hobbling the rail industry so that it can't provide a proper service.

 

[zwk500]

I'd agree with the previous comment that the current government 'hates' rail - it gave a vast amount of support to it during COVID and is continuing to support major investment in fleet and infrastructure.

However if you're looking for reasons behind current policies I'd say the pension liability is a massive one and then ideological opposition to the Trades Unions. The level of subsidy required by the railways doesn't help either.

 

[hexagon789]

I wouldn't say it 'hates' rail, I would say 'hates' putting so much money into it.

As with many things, it's the level of subsidy that they want to cut - similar to BR in the 1980s where it was pushed for NSE and IC to be able to require no subsidy, which was achieved in both cases for a few years. Provincial was always expected to require subsidy.

They want things to pay for themselves as much as possible.

Personally I see a need for a balance - certain social services will always need investment and government subsidy, you can improve efficiency so much but you can't always make them profitable or even able to fully recoup costs.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, big, sexy capital projects where ministers can dress up in hard hats and high viz are always so much more exciting than the mundane business of providing a reliable train service that people use daily.

 

[Horizon22]

I don't think rail has ever been great for politicians in this country - "High Cost? Long Term? Public Money? How much??" Less so now the commuter base can be relied upon. This is a anglophone infrastructure problem though and not the only type of infrastructure in this country suffering right now.

There's some dogma obviously attached to it too, which can be seen in the way the DfT / Treasury is approching the industrial relations issues for example.

Whilst many on these forums are of course passionate about railway / the industry, to a good chunk (not the London & SE bit!) of this country, the railway is irrelevant or low on their agenda. It's a shame it isn't seen as more of a "public good" right now. Lots of knowledgable people out there know how things could or should run but it's like that in many other industries too.

 

[gazzaa2]

They hate public services and they hate unions. Nothing has changed since the Beeching days with the Tories.

 

[Railsigns]

They hate just about everything, to be fair.

 

[Kingham West]

The government has been very supportive of rail, until very recently . generally, this is not the 70,s or early 1980,s.
Its unfortunate costs have risen too much, services have been disrupted by strikes and presumably the brakes have to go on, most Civil Servants , simply don’t get the complexities of cutting 10%, of the budget , in and industry with 70/80%fixed costs, but it’s easier to order cuts now most is re-nationalised .
I just about remember 1976, BR were so short of money they shut the Cheltenham-Stratford line to save £10,000 in track repairs.
We are simply not in that position today.

 

[zwk500]

Yes, big, sexy capital projects where ministers can dress up in hard hats and high viz are always so much more exciting than the mundane business of providing a reliable train service that people use daily.

'Twas ever thus, and it's not unique to the UK either. The US has it's own tendency towards ribbon-cutting:

Of course, the thing that matters most to a politician is votes, not the people or an effective social service.

 

[Thirteen]

I don't think rail has ever been great for politicians in this country - "High Cost? Long Term? Public Money? How much??" Less so now the commuter base can be relied upon. This is a anglophone infrastructure problem though and not the only type of infrastructure in this country suffering right now.

There's some dogma obviously attached to it too, which can be seen in the way the DfT / Treasury is approching the industrial relations issues for example.

Whilst many on these forums are of course passionate about railway / the industry, to a good chunk (not the London & SE bit!) of this country, the railway is irrelevant or low on their agenda. It's a shame it isn't seen as more of a "public good" right now. Lots of knowledgable people out there know how things could or should run but it's like that in many other industries too.

TBF it's not exclusive to rail, they don't spending too much on schools or the NHS either.

But saying that, it is a bit of a myth that the Government hates anything, it's just that the pot of money is limited. I know with the Arts Council England, they have to make tough decisions for each funding round so there will be winners and losers.

 

[bramling]

I think that Sunak didn't like having to financially support train services during Covid when there genuinely weren't many people using them.

Instead of being sensible and chalking it down to his own Government's policy, this has now become a psychological hang-up which seems to be taken out on rail passengers by hobbling the rail industry so that it can't provide a proper service.

It’s not as if Sunak was averse to splashing out cash during Covid, and a lot of that was essentially money down the drain.

I fear the thing about railways is more ideological, in particular towards unions.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

IMO I don’t think hate is the right word, I think it’s a mixture of needing to cut costs and now unfortunately it’s the railways turn. Many other public services have been cut to the bone over the past 13 years while the TOCs escaped due to being under the franchised system. Not that I’m in favour of the cuts of course.

Big tick.
The commercial TOCs had scope in their franchise contracts to develop and expand, but since Covid they are all now under the DfT cost-control hammer.
It's what being in public ownership means, especially if you are in a non-strategic sector.
Network Rail is still protected to a degree with its 5-year Control Period settlements, but they will be rolled into GBR's budget next time.
The railway has to get out of the annual government budget-setting regime, to avoid the micro-management.

The government has also discovered that maintaining full industry employment during Covid at heavy cost to the Treasury has not endeared them to the unions.
I'm not sure a Labour government would be any easier on the railways - they will still pursue industry changes and cost reduction.

 

[exbrel]

They hate public services and they hate unions. Nothing has changed since the Beeching days with the Tories.

isn't the opposite also true that the unions hate the tories...

 

[Master29]

I think the cuts chestnut is the Tory mantra and always has been since the disastrous Marples and his cronies were unleashed in the early 60's and no government since has really reversed much of the damage. Forget what has gone on recently. They were more necessities rather than Tory Babies.

 

[nr758123]

They hate just about everything, to be fair.

They also hate each other.

 

[chris_in_salop]

Possibly because the railways don't help themselves?

To an outsider, the railways seem to be both a bottomless money-pit and a perpetual source of bad news stories.

 

[tomuk]

Big tick.
The commercial TOCs had scope in their franchise contracts to develop and expand, but since Covid they are all now under the DfT cost-control hammer.
It's what being in public ownership means, especially if you are in a non-strategic sector.
Network Rail is still protected to a degree with its 5-year Control Period settlements, but they will be rolled into GBR's budget next time.
The railway has to get out of the annual government budget-setting regime, to avoid the micro-management.

The government has also discovered that maintaining full industry employment during Covid at heavy cost to the Treasury has not endeared them to the unions.
I'm not sure a Labour government would be any easier on the railways - they will still pursue industry changes and cost reduction.

It is the passenger railway that will be rolled into NR to form GBR not the other way round and in the draft proposals the control periods for infrastructure maintenance and renewal were to be retained separate from both the passenger budget and infrastructure enhancements budget.

 

[Horizon22]

Possibly because the railways don't help themselves?

To an outsider, the railways seem to be both a bottomless money-pit and a perpetual source of bad news stories.

The issue its expensive to run, and will become more expensive over time and this is just to do the boring stuff like maintenance and stopping embankments falling down and bridges collapsing which could become more common as the infrastructure ages and climate change effects become more prevalent.

The cost base of the industry does need to decrease, but that's not at all easy to do and most people would focus only on staffing when there's a lot of other elements and there's considerable disagreement on what is best. Personally I think the government's currently approaches would be short-term gain for medium and long-term decline and a misunderstanding that the railway can't be looked on a simple monetary cost/benefit analysis.

 

[urbophile]

IMO I don’t think hate is the right word, I think it’s a mixture of needing to cut costs

Not 'needing'. Having an ideological objection to public spending.

 

[nw1]

If I had to take a guess, I would say it's because of what railways represent. Conservatism in western society tends to lean towards individualism and personal freedom (despite also somewhat misunderstanding their meanings),

Indeed, self evidently that definition excludes the personal freedom to use public transport for one's individual needs!

 

[Master29]

IMO I don’t think hate is the right word, I think it’s a mixture of needing to cut costs and now unfortunately it’s the railways turn. Many other public services have been cut to the bone over the past 13 years while the TOCs escaped due to being under the franchised system. Not that I’m in favour of the cuts of course.

I think this chestnut has worn very thin over the years and is more used as justification than anything else to cover their screw ups.

They also hate each other.

Indeed. Love and Tory is an oxymoron if ever there was one.

Possibly because the railways don't help themselves?

To an outsider, the railways seem to be both a bottomless money-pit and a perpetual source of bad news stories.

Of course years of government mismanagement (both Tory and Labour) has absolutely nothing to do with it. Lets just believe the Daily Express then.

 

[The exile]

Personally I think the government's currently approaches would be short-term gain for medium and long-term decline and a misunderstanding that the railway can't be looked on a monetary cost/benefit analysis.

Like the get-rich-quick “greed is good” attitude that has dominated society for at least the last 40-odd years. In the long term, greed only results in losers.

 

[Master29]

If I had to take a guess, I would say it's because of what railways represent. Conservatism in western society tends to lean towards individualism and personal freedom (despite also somewhat misunderstanding their meanings), and as such they naturally favour the car over the train which is a timetabled form of transport for the collective which is against their aforementioned principles. Personal interests may also be involved since Ernest Marples, Minister of Transport during the Beeching cuts, allegedly had an interest in companies that were building motorways with government funding. That said I'm not fully sure we can say the current UK government is anti-rail more so than it leans towards total indifference at best. I'm not too sure about that though.


On the contrary they seem to be keen on cutting back on HS2 spending since it was under this government that the eastern leg was scrapped.

I think many have an understanding on what Conservatism (large and possible small C's here) and quite frankly there will be some colourful adjectives for sure.
Marples didn't just have a passing interest he was directly responsible for this conflict of interest tragedy. The US and her patsy the UK always hate anything to do with any forms of Hoi Polloi and it is reflected in years of media gaslighting.

 

[zwk500]

Like the get-rich-quick “greed is good” attitude that has dominated society for at least the last 40-odd years. In the long term, greed only results in losers.

Indeed. We now chase bubbles all the time. And when the bubbles pop, only the already rich profit.

 

[Master29]

Like the get-rich-quick “greed is good” attitude that has dominated society for at least the last 40-odd years. In the long term, greed only results in losers.

I think this exactly the point and well put.