Why is railway catering such a rip off?

[DerekC]

PS - don't talk to me about Greggs - they bought our nice local bakery, sold off the bakehouse for apartments and turned it into a grotty little Greggs with standardised products brought in from wherever.

 

[ChilternTurbo]

Then take London Maylebone, its managed by Chiltern Railways, the Burger King, a small coffee brand, a bagel place etc are all charging normal decent prices no SSP in sight, they value their passengers more than profits.

There's a rip off Upper Crust which never seems that busy due to the other options you mention. I did use the Upper Crust there once and got a dreadful stomach upset which I attribute to the ham and mozzarella baguette I paid a small fortune for. I should've used the little cafe outiside the station, which pre-pandemic, seemed to do a good trade with commuters.

 

[py_megapixel]

There's a rip off Upper Crust which never seems that busy due to the other options you mention. I did use the Upper Crust there once and got a dreadful stomach upset which I attribute to the ham and mozzarella baguette I paid a small fortune for. I should've used the little cafe outiside the station, which pre-pandemic, seemed to do a good trade with commuters.

It's quite amusing to read SSP's own description of the Upper Crust brand - in particular, this bit: "Upper Crust is a well-established international brand, with a proven track rcord as a filled baguette led brand. At Upper Crust, we promise freshly prepared baguettes generously filled with mouth-watering ingredients as well as freshly baked pastries and breakfast rolls. Our classic white, super sourdough and seeded multi-grain baguettes go straight from the oven to our counter in their crispy, crunchy gloriousness." They also claim it "demonstrates universal appeal with customers around the world."

I have had an Upper Crust baguette; the bread was stale and there was not enough filling. It was also of course horribly overpriced. Not my idea of "mouth-watering" or "universally appealing".

The funniest bit, though, is their seeming assertion that a "filled baguette led brand" is something extremely well-known!

 

[DelW]

On board Catering:
- Generally expensive due to shortsighted managers who don't understand that if the price is dropped, for say an instant coffee to £1, you will sell four times as much. A good example was CrossCountry and Arriva Trains Wales, both selling coffees at £2.50ish. Very few were buying on those services.
- At another company, the contractor was doing Kenco Instant coffees at £1 and went through 7 sleeves (70 coffees) - two full trolley urns of hot water... in just 2 hours. Far more profit in selling dirt cheap instant coffee en-masse than a few overpriced posh ones.

I've often thought this myself. The actual cost of ingredients for hot drinks must be trivial - maybe 10p to 20p per cup including the cup itself and other costs. So selling three cups at £1 generates similar profits to selling one cup at £2.50.

But, while the trolley is stopped in front of you, and you're getting out your wallet or card to pay anyway, most people will add a packet of biscuits or crisps, or a cake, to go with their drink.

Which sounds like the classic win/win - more sales and profits for the operator, and travellers happy because they've paid a sensible price for their tea or coffee. So is there a snag in this logic, or is it just that accountants seeing losses can't think beyond "we must put the price up"?

 

[185]

Only it probably doesn't work like that in practice. Presumably the 'at another company' was not on board trains?

The 'other company' was indeed a large rail franchise, with the 80-trolley catering contract supplied by an independent, proper cowboy outfit - but, credit to them, they had a better understanding of how to turn a profit than some of the other so called 'professional' intercity firms. They also shifted a lot of Stella at £2 a can, and did quite excellent sandwiches (£1.80-£2) too ... sandwich supplier was the now-gone Brambles of Middlesborough. It worked well for about six years until one of the business partners walked out and the remaining chap got greedy racked the prices up and started charging staff for uniforms... at that point other irregularities were discovered during an audit (double invoicing the train firm for comp drinks in First Class) - it was re-tendered and RailGourmet were brought in... sort of the trolley of last resort.

 

[Mawkie]

A quick glance at Network Rail property rentals highlighted a 38sqm property outside Dalston Kingsland for £38,000+vat per year - or £673 a week (obviously not including business rates, utilities, salaries etc). So it's quite obvious that whatever prices are charged for whatever product you're selling has to be based on covering your basic costs first.

https://property.networkrail.co.uk/properties/DLK00401/

 

[farleigh]

Time for a return to Travellers Fare

 

[RT4038]

The 'other company' was indeed a large rail franchise, with the 80-trolley catering contract supplied by an independent, proper cowboy outfit - but, credit to them, they had a better understanding of how to turn a profit than some of the other so called 'professional' intercity firms. They also shifted a lot of Stella at £2 a can, and did quite excellent sandwiches (£1.80-£2) too ... sandwich supplier was the now-gone Brambles of Middlesborough. It worked well for about six years until one of the business partners walked out and the remaining chap got greedy racked the prices up and started charging staff for uniforms... at that point it was re-tendered and RailGourmet were brought in.

If they were turning in such a good profit, why was that model discarded? Always good to use the word greed ( everybody hates that) but perhaps the profit was not that good....? Funny how nobody else has stumbled across this great business model!

 

[185]

If they were turning in such a good profit, why was that model discarded? Always good to use the word greed ( everybody hates that) but perhaps the profit was not that good....? Funny how nobody else has stumbled across this great business model!

Err.. Another company, a second, major train operating company, did infact use that exact business model. Central Trains went on to hire the same contract firm in 2001 and was using them into the two new EM and LM franchises for several years.

 

[RT4038]

Err.. Another company, a second, major train operating company, did infact use that exact business model. Central Trains went on to hire the same contract firm in 2001 and was using them into the two new EM and LM franchises for several years.

So what happened to them then? They were so profitable that the owners retired on the proceeds, and no-one else has sought to emulate their business model, apparently so much better than anyone else? Just seems too incredible to be true.

 

[Gloster]

If you remember Brief Encounter, supposedly set at Carnforth (LMS) station, it had the classic old-fashioned refreshment room run by a dragon behind the counter.
(I remember the refreshment room on Chester station used to be just like that when I first used it in 1961 - Lyons Individual Fruit Pie anyone?).
Today's facility at Carnforth is not the usual SSP outlet, but is privately run and a pleasure to use.
They piggy-back on the film's legacy of course, but they've replaced the dragon with customer-friendly staff.
There are a few other non-SSP-run refreshment rooms of course, Llandudno Jn being one.
None of these businesses have had an easy 18 months with Covid of course, and high prices are not surprising as they try and rebuild.
Prices on the high street are on the way up too.

Although the exterior station scenes of Brief Encounter were filmed at Carnforth the fictitious Milford Junction was actually a suburban junction, probably in the Home Counties. Even in those days a small junction would have a buffet where you could consume stewed tea, rock-hard buns and drooping sandwiches while enduring long waits for connections.

 

[185]

So what happened to them then? They were so profitable that the owners retired on the proceeds, and no-one else has sought to emulate their business model, apparently so much better than anyone else? Just seems too incredible to be true.

You know, for a moment, I thought you might be right. A lot of people hallucinated the entire 1990s, I'm sure I did too. Infact, I must have hallucinated the memories from working at that exact catering company myself, dragging a trolley up and down trains on twelve hour shifts for several years flogging coffee (Kenco, either black or with powdered milk) at £1 and or PG Tea at 90p, or Hot Chocolate (also £1) on a flatbed Kenco trolley. Well, I thought I dreamt it up until I dug out a lodgement invoice sheet from Express Catering Limited (registered office Chester, later Nottingham) with a top up order from their service centre from 12 October 2000. I could bore you with the entire order I put in, including the type of biscuit used (Walkers Luxury Shortbread) but I'm hoping at this point you realise it may not have been a pipe dream.

You miss the rather obvious answer to you questions in my first post.... shortsighted greed from bosses who had probably never been on a train. £1 became £1.10, £1.70, £1.90, £2.05 etc.

I hear there may be at least five other fellow hallucinating trolley staff from Express Catering on here, I will advise them to all seek help.

 

[TravelDream]

It's reasonable to wonder why someone hasn't imitated the lower cost model if it were so successful.
Pre-Covid on ATW/TFW the trolley did seem to go up and down the train with few if any takers. I think people might be a little scared to even ask as they have the expectation prices are high. £2.50+ for a bit of instant coffee is a rip-off in anyone's book.

Because it is the UK.

I always laugh at comments like these. Clearly you are someone who has lived a very sheltered life never leaving these shores.
UK train station (and airport in fact) prices are reasonable compared to some countries.

Try Bangkok where that Burger King which cost £2.50 in a prime downtown location costs over £15 at the airport. And, yes, Bangkok Airport Burger King is operated by SSP.

Or Switzerland. Cafes in train station make you question if you have the Swiss Franc conversion correct and eyes water. Cups of coffee are probably not far off a tenner nowadays (haven't been for a couple of years).

Or go to a train station in Poland. That 50p bottle of water in the corner shop outside is suddenly £2.50. Ok, maybe less than the UK, but the markup and comparison to local conditions is more extreme.

 

[Meerkat]

I've often thought this myself. The actual cost of ingredients for hot drinks must be trivial - maybe 10p to 20p per cup including the cup itself and other costs. So selling three cups at £1 generates similar profits to selling one cup at £2.50.

But, while the trolley is stopped in front of you, and you're getting out your wallet or card to pay anyway, most people will add a packet of biscuits or crisps, or a cake, to go with their drink.

Which sounds like the classic win/win - more sales and profits for the operator, and travellers happy because they've paid a sensible price for their tea or coffee. So is there a snag in this logic, or is it just that accountants seeing losses can't think beyond "we must put the price up"?

Presumably the ’sell more cheap’ model only works if there are plenty of passengers (depending on the ratio of ‘would buy it any price’ types to the ‘buy if cheaper’)

 

[185]

Just for info, a 10 cup sleeve of 'Kenco 10' was, from the supplier (3663) iirc roughly 80p... so, 8p per cup ex vat... thus, at £1 a cup - 92p to cover staff costs, overheads and profits.

 

[riceuten]

If you think the U.K. is bad, I suggest you don’t try to buy anything at Geneva airport. McDonalds Meal deal £11, bottle of coke a fiver, etc.

That's Switzerland in general, though. Espresso at Zurich Airport - CHF7. Plain margharita pizza in a nondescript pizzeria in Basel, some way away from the Hbf - CHF25. Small sausage from a stand in the centre of St Gallen - CHF6.50. Schnitzel at a restaurant by the harbour in Romanshorn - CHF36. I assumed it came with chips - no, they're CHF5 extra. Infact, my experiences in Switzerland were that food was usually cheaper at the train stations than at restaurants in the towns they served.

See also Luxembourg Gare Centrale

 

[D6130]

That's Switzerland in general, though. Espresso at Zurich Airport - CHF7. Plain margharita pizza in a nondescript pizzeria in Basel, some way away from the Hbf - CHF25. Small sausage from a stand in the centre of St Gallen - CHF6.50. Schnitzel at a restaurant by the harbour in Romanshorn - CHF36. I assumed it came with chips - no, they're CHF5 extra. Infact, my experiences in Switzerland were that food was usually cheaper at the train stations than at restaurants in the towns they served.

My - admittedly quite limited - experience in Switzerland is that some of the cheapest and best value meals are to be found in department store restaurants in the larger towns and cities.

 

[LowLevel]

Boots and Pret are usually the way forward - equivalent pricing to their High Street outlets and decent quality. Costa isn't SSP, they are an interloper. Was Whitbread, now Coca Cola. Gourmet Coffee is also an independent chain although their standards have gone down in the last few years. Burger King at Marylebone is the only independent BK on the network, the rest are SSP franchises though they've been shutting them down steadily over the last few years.

I refuse to buy anything at all off SSP and if passengers ask me for advice on where to get something to eat or drink I do my utmost to send them to outlets just outside the station or at least to other outlets.

A disgusting operation that needs to be consigned to history.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Isn't a lot of the issue that many passengers (myself included) have now bought into the idea of a 'proper coffee' and are happy to pay several pounds for a genuine experience - often in a dedicated coffee shop down the road from the station?

Back in the 1980s I was 'happy' with an instant coffee at a low price.

I know that retirement gives me a completely different perspective on the urgency or speed of travel but I will quite happily break a journey at Nottingham (for example) for the full coffee experience over three quarters of an hour rather than grab a quick Pumpkin or whatever on the station.

Others might have a similar view about real ale/authentic pub near a station rather than a luke warm can of a mass produced brand from a trolley.

I think that the market for on-board refreshments has reduced a lot other than on the longest journeys. Other factors like split ticketing also encourage a 'take a break en route' approach.

 

[LowLevel]

Isn't a lot of the issue that many passengers (myself included) have now bought into the idea of a 'proper coffee' and are happy to pay several pounds for a genuine experience - often in a dedicated coffee shop down the road from the station.

Back in the 1980s I was 'happy' with an instant coffee at a low price.

I know that retirement gives me a completely different perspective on the urgency or speed of travel but I will quite happily break a journey at Nottingham (for example) for the full coffee experience over three quarters of an hour rather than grab a quick Pumpkin or whatever on the station.

Others might have a similar view about real ale/authentic pub near a station rather than a luke warm can of a mass produced brand from a trolley.

I think that the market for on-board refreshments has reduced a lot other than on the longest journeys. Other factors like split ticketing also encourage a 'take a break en route' approach.

Depends whether you've got someone who can actually make a decent coffee vs someone who mangles a barista machine and produces something unpleasant.

Personally my first preference, unless it's a properly decent coffee shop, is the bean to cup machine favoured by Greggs, McDonalds or Wetherspoons, which as long as it's cleaned regularly will produce a reliable, drinkable cup of coffee every time, at a good price.

For on board I find Greater Anglia's filter coffee sold from a pump pot to be very nice - I was delighted when they were flogging coffee for a quid on Norwich station from a static trolley topped up from one of the 745s when they were on turnaround!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

To be fair the SSP franchised Sainsbury's, Boots and M&S food are far more reasonably priced, broadly in line with the supermarkets own pricing. A Sainsbury's has just opened in York opposite the existing overpriced SSP brand shop. Given the massive price difference they are going to have to up their game or will end up losing trade.

There are independents out there, the station buffet in Huddersfield is renown amongs staff for cracking bacon sandwiches and often open up early for night shift staff passing through. Northallerton had one but the lease contract was terminated so a SSP franchise could move in. That never happened and the unit still lies empty....

 

[kermit]

Although the exterior station scenes of Brief Encounter were filmed at Carnforth the fictitious Milford Junction was actually a suburban junction, probably in the Home Counties. Even in those days a small junction would have a buffet where you could consume stewed tea, rock-hard buns and drooping sandwiches while enduring long waits for connections.

Or sometimes a warm, mysteriously-filled "meat pie", served on a small plate in a little puddle of its own grease. Which, funnily enough, I would choose every time rather than the £1 per bite disappointments from concourse Pasty Shops........

 

[geoffk]

Hebden Bridge station cafe was voted best in the country by Railfuture in 2017. It was charging £1 for a coffee when I moved to the area in 2003 and it was still £1 when I moved south a few months ago! Other independent cafes I sometimes used were at Selby, Moorthorpe, Skipton and Hellifield, all with reasonable prices. Irlam on the other hand is quite expensive. Recently discovered Geronimo's station diner at Dawlish - I assume this is in a railway-owned building - but have not yet sampled those at Crediton or Eggesford. I suppose the moral is, avoid the "chains" but not always possible.

 

[BrokenSam]

Because of this thread I'm going to take a moral stand against using anything SSP.

Uhh...can someone please tell me if the sweets stall at Liverpool Lime Street is SSP? Because my moral standards will last all of two minutes otherwise.

 

[py_megapixel]

Because of this thread I'm going to take a moral stand against using anything SSP.

Uhh...can someone please tell me if the sweets stall at Liverpool Lime Street is SSP? Because my moral standards will last all of two minutes otherwise.

What brand is said sweets stall?

 

[Bald Rick]

Costa isn't SSP, they are an interloper. Was Whitbread, now Coca Cola

IIRC most Costas are franchised (which is how their owner makes the money). I don’t know if SSP have the franchises or not.

Because of this thread I'm going to take a moral stand against using anything SSP.

Uhh...can someone please tell me if the sweets stall at Liverpool Lime Street is SSP? Because my moral standards will last all of two minutes otherwise.

Fairly sure it is.

 

[dk1]

Time for a return to Travellers Fare

Back in the 80s there where the same gripes about their prices too.

 

[Re 4/4]

Since we've mentioned Switzerland a lot, there are two tricks for getting reasonably priced sandwiches/drink at big stations:

1. Go to the Migros or Coop, there's one in or near most big stations. (Not the "K" Kiosk, that's the equivalent of SSP prices.)
2. Don't buy from the hot food/takeaway counter, go in to the actual shop. The very same Migros will sell a bottle of coke for different prices at the takeaway counter and in the shop itself.

That gets you reasonable-for-Switzerland prices.

 

[LowLevel]

IIRC most Costas are franchised (which is how their owner makes the money). I don’t know if SSP have the franchises or not.



Fairly sure it is.

SSP generally have a contact details plate affixed at the entrance/counter of all of their outlets regardless of brand - all of the Costas I've seen on the railway have the contact details for Whitbread Group, or did until recently anyway. They also generally give a staff discount to railway staff unlike the SSP outlets

 

[Harold Hill]

At the root of all high prices in the UK is tax. HMG is a greedy, ravenous beast