Why is railway catering such a rip off?

[philosopher]

Isn't a lot of the issue that many passengers (myself included) have now bought into the idea of a 'proper coffee' and are happy to pay several pounds for a genuine experience - often in a dedicated coffee shop down the road from the station?

Back in the 1980s I was 'happy' with an instant coffee at a low price.

I am not sure I would tolerate paying more than one pound for a black coloured drink of hot water with the word coffee in its name !

 

[py_megapixel]

At the root of all high prices in the UK is tax. HMG is a greedy, ravenous beast

Any evidence for that assertion? I don't think Govt taxes stations more than any other retail space

 

[whoosh]

On board Catering:
- Generally expensive due to shortsighted managers who don't understand that if the price is dropped, for say an instant coffee to £1, you will sell four times as much. A good example was CrossCountry and Arriva Trains Wales, both selling coffees at £2.50ish. Very few were buying on those services.
- At another company, the contractor was doing Kenco Instant coffees at £1 and went through 7 sleeves (70 coffees) - two full trolley urns of hot water... in just 2 hours. Far more profit in selling dirt cheap instant coffee en-masse than a few overpriced posh ones.

Midland Mainline used to give everyone a free cup of tea or coffee. When Stagecoach took over as East Midlands Trains they claimed that this generosity 'cost' £1million a year and did away with it. But then if you went to the buffet car to claim your free cup, you got asked if you'd like anything else - giving tea or coffee away free was:
1. Good customer service.
2. A 'hook' to reel in more sales.

No surprise that sales dwindled, and that fewer passenger went to the buffet car (now having bought their tea or coffee - and cakes and crisps - at station shops). "Let's shut the buffet and have a trolley to chase sales," said a Manager who didn't realise that sales actively came with the collection of a freebie and weren't chased previously. And the hot water from the buffet boiler became potentially lukewarm water from a pot on a trolley which got in everyone's way, and was much harder to view the selection from than a counter. And downhill it all went.

 

[nanstallon]

At the end of the day, it is nobody's responsibility to provide refreshments at an acceptable price. They will charge whatever the market will bear, and if some people are too lazy to pack their own lunch/ tea at home before travelling, or even to pop into a nearby supermarket, then any business will take advantage. With most of us, we don't mind paying a 'convenience premium', but there is a tipping point at which the supplier is taking the mickey and we refrain from buying. But as long as there are those who are prepared to pay extortionate prices, the supplier will go on charging them. I don't think that there is any ethical dimension to this.

 

[Clip]

They were not doubting your experience they were asking why this model hasn't been carried on by others if it's so profitable.

You know, for a moment, I thought you might be right. A lot of people hallucinated the entire 1990s, I'm sure I did too. Infact, I must have hallucinated the memories from working at that exact catering company myself, dragging a trolley up and down trains on twelve hour shifts for several years flogging coffee (Kenco, either black or with powdered milk) at £1 and or PG Tea at 90p, or Hot Chocolate (also £1) on a flatbed Kenco trolley. Well, I thought I dreamt it up until I dug out a lodgement invoice sheet from Express Catering Limited (registered office Chester, later Nottingham) with a top up order from their service centre from 12 October 2000. I could bore you with the entire order I put in, including the type of biscuit used (Walkers Luxury Shortbread) but I'm hoping at this point you realise it may not have been a pipe dream.

You miss the rather obvious answer to you questions in my first post.... shortsighted greed from bosses who had probably never been on a train. £1 became £1.10, £1.70, £1.90, £2.05 etc.

I hear there may be at least five other fellow hallucinating trolley staff from Express Catering on here, I will advise them to all seek help.

 

[STINT47]

Do SSP still do the bite card? I used to use one but after the discount was reduced I didn't bother.

With the growth in the small convenience supermarkets like Tesco Express and Sainsbury's local I see little reason to buy at a station or onboard these days. Better quality for less money.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Midland Mainline used to give everyone a free cup of tea or coffee. When Stagecoach took over as East Midlands Trains they claimed that this generosity 'cost' £1million a year and did away with it. But then if you went to the buffet car to claim your free cup, you got asked if you'd like anything else - giving tea or coffee away free was:
1. Good customer service.
2. A 'hook' to reel in more sales.

No surprise that sales dwindled, and that fewer passenger went to the buffet car (now having bought their tea or coffee - and cakes and crisps - at station shops). "Let's shut the buffet and have a trolley to chase sales," said a Manager who didn't realise that sales actively came with the collection of a freebie and weren't chased previously. And the hot water from the buffet boiler became potentially lukewarm water from a pot on a trolley which got in everyone's way, and was much harder to view the selection from than a counter. And downhill it all went.

As a regular Midland Mainline (MML's) commuter in that era there was a bit more to it than that.

Initially all of MML's (few) trains were HSTs that had a buffet counter anyway. There were no trolleys (at least in Standard Class) and so the aisles were always busy with people stumbling to and fro, half the time carrying scalding liquids in paper bags, which wasn't ideal. On busy trains there was a constant queue at the counter that was hardly a positive environment. In my experience relatively few people bought anything extra.

Once you had a blanket 'free hot drinks for everyone' claim in your journey proposition it then meant that you had to staff the buffet on every train for the full length of the journey, even at quiet times of day. This also tended to hinder clearing up towards the end of journeys.

When the Class 170s came along for the stopping services south of Leicester there then had to be a host and trolley in every 2-car, again at all times.

Notwithstanding the free drinks it was interesting to note that Wellingborough station, which didn't have a catering outlet for quite a while, got a 'proper' cafe that many people seemed happy to pay to use in preference to the prospective hassle getting a mediocre container of dark liquid on the train.

I'm not sure how successful the policy really was as a loss leader. I know that franchise re-mapping means that EMT/EMR isn't comparable with the old MML franchises but the numbers travelling just seemed to go up and up in line with the rest of the industry (making due allowance for things like the post-Hatfield performance meltdown, 2005 London bombings, 2008 financial crisis and so on).

 

[Trackman]

It's definitely got worse post-Covid.

The Mill Bar at Manchester Piccadilly is also SSP. They wanted £6.99 off me for a pint of Birra Moretti in May, or even £6.79 for a Dark Fruits. Needless to say, I walked out. No chance! (For context, I remember paying £5.50 for a pint of Stella in the final days of Virgin Trains. Which, to be fair, isn't a huge premium over a city centre pub.)

I'm guessing it was about four years ago (or maybe more) ( EDIT: just checked it was April 2015) was the last time I visited Man Vic.
I had half an hour to kill, it was a sunny afternoon so I went to the pub inside (The old 1st Class refreshments dome thingy).
I was charged £5.20 for a pint of premium lager. No wonder it was empty plus the price list was hiding away somewhere.
I dread to think what the prices are now.
I also remember earlier that day I had a pint in the pub next to Farringdon station and it was the same price.

Once I bought a 4 pack of beer (cant remember what brand) from Sainsburys at Euston for a train journey up north.
I had a mooch about and looked around the Whistle Stop shop. I found for the price of one can beer in there I could I buy a 4-pack in Sainsburys.

Though you can't get a new one now I believe.

It seems so according to the website:

The scheme is currently closed to new members . Do check back here for further information at a later date

It will still let you log-in so I have ordered a replacement card! Let's see what happens.
About 10 years ago a Network Rail ID would give you 20% discount, but they did away with it so you had to have a bite card. A year later or so it went down to 10%.

 

[AndyHA]

At Liverpool Street and Cambridge there is an M & S outlet , at Liverpool Street it is upstairs . Their prices are Cheaper ( ! ) than the Station kiosks .
After about 1600 hrs the M & S at Liverpool Street mark prices down with Yelloway Stickers , making them even better priced .

 

[dk1]

At Liverpool Street and Cambridge there is an M & S outlet , at Liverpool Street it is upstairs . Their prices are Cheaper ( ! ) than the Station kiosks .
After about 1600 hrs the M & S at Liverpool Street mark prices down with Yelloway Stickers , making them even better priced .

The Liv St M&S Simply Food downstairs seems to have closed as has the one opposite in the arcade. Norwich station is yet to (hopefully) reopen.

 

[AndyHA]

The Liv St M&S Simply Food downstairs seems to have closed as has the one opposite in the arcade. Norwich station is yet to (hopefully) reopen.

The one upstairs is alive and well

 

[dk1]

The one upstairs is alive and well

Oh yes. I'm up those escalators most days

 

[miklcct]

My - admittedly quite limited - experience in Switzerland is that some of the cheapest and best value meals are to be found in department store restaurants in the larger towns and cities.

I have visited Switzerland in 2018 and I will NEVER return to the country again because it is too expensive in general.

At the root of all high prices in the UK is tax. HMG is a greedy, ravenous beast

That's true. UK is an extremely high tax society compared to Gibraltar, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc.

 

[Robertj21a]

I have visited Switzerland in 2018 and I will NEVER return to the country again because it is too expensive in general.


That's true. UK is an extremely high tax society compared to Gibraltar, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc.

You do realise that Switzerland is (rightly) viewed as extremely expensive partly because of the currently poor UK exchange rate ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's Switzerland in general, though. Espresso at Zurich Airport - CHF7. Plain margharita pizza in a nondescript pizzeria in Basel, some way away from the Hbf - CHF25. Small sausage from a stand in the centre of St Gallen - CHF6.50. Schnitzel at a restaurant by the harbour in Romanshorn - CHF36. I assumed it came with chips - no, they're CHF5 extra. Infact, my experiences in Switzerland were that food was usually cheaper at the train stations than at restaurants in the towns they served.

See also Luxembourg Gare Centrale

Other than the exchange rate I mentioned earlier, Switzerland is a high wage culture in which there are few badly paid jobs, and for example being a waiter is considered a profession and is paid well accordingly. This is really what should be the case everywhere, and we should all be more willing to pay the proper cost of service. The effect of it however is that anything involving personal service is very expensive - a restaurant meal (as opposed to McD or Subway which is expensive but only by the exchange rate), a haircut, home cleaning etc.

At the root of all high prices in the UK is tax. HMG is a greedy, ravenous beast

It is really not by European standards. If you would prefer a place where people were paid poverty wages and can't even afford basic healthcare, the US is over there <---

Any evidence for that assertion? I don't think Govt taxes stations more than any other retail space

Clearly not, it was just a right wing rant, these generally have little or no basis in fact.

It will still let you log-in so I have ordered a replacement card! Let's see what happens.
About 10 years ago a Network Rail ID would give you 20% discount, but they did away with it so you had to have a bite card. A year later or so it went down to 10%.

I tried that a few times and no card was forthcoming.

 

[Bikeman78]

I mean it was always bad, but seems to be worse post-COVID. At Liverpool Street last month Upper Crust wanted 6 quid for a pretty uninspiring baguette.
And I've just been at Peterborough. Went into the Pumpkin for a bottle of water. £2.45 for a 500ml bottle! I ummed and ah'd and though about the "meal deal" of water, soggy sandwich and crisps which was at least better value at £4.50. Buyt then I'd just end up consuming calories I didn't want.
So I went to the Waitrose just outside the station entrance and bought a bottle of water for the princely sum of 45p.
The Pumpkin needless to say was deserted, and a quick perusal of the offerings showed that everything was even more outrageously priced than before.

Why is station catering so rubbish and expensive (with a few very notable exceptions)?

If you go up the stairs at the platform 17 end there is a Tesco Metro across the road. Hardly top notch cuisine but you can get a meal deal for three quid. On the station AMT does a decent cup of coffee for two quid.

 

[ChilternTurbo]

Isn't a lot of the issue that many passengers (myself included) have now bought into the idea of a 'proper coffee' and are happy to pay several pounds for a genuine experience - often in a dedicated coffee shop down the road from the station?

I'm exactly like that now. Up until around the millennium I was quite happy with Nescafe and other instant brands. I now like to seek out a decent independent coffee shop and am happy to pay for quality. Of the chain brands, I'm ok with a Caffe Nero but don't bother with the likes of Starbucks etc.

The last coffee I purchased on a train (and I don't know what I was thinking) was from a GWR trolley. I appreciate the limitations of a trolley but the dish water I was served was just offensive! I'm in a hotel at the moment and can get a pretty decent coffee from the little Nespresso machine. I guess having something like that is not possible on a trolley but it could work in a buffet?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You do realise that Switzerland is (rightly) viewed as extremely expensive partly because of the currently poor UK exchange rate ?

Which has applied since we were bundled out of the ERM in 1992 (rate has more than halved, from 2.6 to 1.2).
The £/€ rate has also dropped by 1/3 since 2000 (from roughly 1.6 to 1.1).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Swiss trolleys carry a capsule machine, forget what it is but it's not Nespresso. I don't think it would be at all difficult a thing to do.

 

[py_megapixel]

Are there any supermarkets or similar with a decent lunch offering near Victoria station in London? I'll be there around lunchtime one day next week

Swiss trolleys carry a capsule machine, forget what it is but it's not Nespresso. I don't think it would be at all difficult a thing to do.

Not good for the environment though as the capsules are an unrecyclable mix of aluminium and plastic

 

[Grumpy Git]

You do realise that Switzerland is (rightly) viewed as extremely expensive partly because of the currently poor UK exchange rate ?

CHF3.3 / GBP on my first visit in 1988
CHF2.4 / GBP approx 2001
CHF1.3 / GBP approx 2008 - I never went there on holiday after 2008, I can't think why!

Interesting that when there is any financial upheaval, the value of the Swiss Franc and gold always skyrocket. I did considder relocating there about 2000/2001, it would be completely out of the question now and I don't consider myself as hard-up.

 

[station_road]

Not good for the environment though as the capsules are an unrecyclable mix of aluminium and plastic

No they're not - Nespresso offer a free recycling service by post for example

How To Recycle Nespresso Coffee Pods | Nespresso UK

Did you know that Nespresso coffee capsules are fully recyclable? Discover the free Nespresso pod recycling services and get involved with recycling today.

www.nespresso.com

 

[miklcct]

It is really not by European standards. If you would prefer a place where people were paid poverty wages and can't even afford basic healthcare, the US is over there <---

How about other countries where tax is low but universal healthcare is covered by tax? The US is the only developed country in the world where people are likely to get bankrupt by medical bills.

Other than the exchange rate I mentioned earlier, Switzerland is a high wage culture in which there are few badly paid jobs, and for example being a waiter is considered a profession and is paid well accordingly. This is really what should be the case everywhere, and we should all be more willing to pay the proper cost of service.

A high wage culture only works if the workforce can export non-labour-intensive products into the world to exchange for labour-intensive products. For example, Switzerland does that by offering financial products.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm exactly like that now. Up until around the millennium I was quite happy with Nescafe and other instant brands. I now like to seek out a decent independent coffee shop and am happy to pay for quality. Of the chain brands, I'm ok with a Caffe Nero but don't bother with the likes of Starbucks etc.

The last coffee I purchased on a train (and I don't know what I was thinking) was from a GWR trolley. I appreciate the limitations of a trolley but the dish water I was served was just offensive! I'm in a hotel at the moment and can get a pretty decent coffee from the little Nespresso machine. I guess having something like that is not possible on a trolley but it could work in a buffet?

Quite agree, much the same as me. Caffe Nero is worth the extra cost but then you get rubbish from people like Starbucks who, somehow, get away with charging similar premium prices.

 

[miklcct]

Quite agree, much the same as me. Caffe Nero is worth the extra cost but then you get rubbish from people like Starbucks who, somehow, get away with charging similar premium prices.

Coffees of the same kind is the same to me from any coffee shop. If there are multiple coffee shops the only criteria for me is the price.

 

[Bald Rick]

How about other countries where tax is low but universal healthcare is covered by tax?

Which countries are those?

 

[Wyrleybart]

When the Class 170s came along for the stopping services south of Leicester there then had to be a host and trolley in every 2-car, again at all times.

Not sure that is strictly correct. I thought 170101-170110 were procured for MML services and had a built in buffet in the centre car. These later migrated to Central Trains thence to XC

 

[miklcct]

Which countries are those?

Basically all low-tax developed countries in the world where healthcare is tax-funded, including the usual names like Singapore, Hong Kong, Gibraltar, etc.

 

[Bald Rick]

Basically all low-tax developed countries in the world where healthcare is tax-funded, including the usual names like Singapore, Hong Kong, Gibraltar, etc.

All city states, with very high desensitise of population (much more efficient for public services) and decidedly ‘unusual’ corporate taxation regimes.

Now, name a developed country with more than 5 million inhabitants and a population density of lower than 500/sq km.

 

[miklcct]

Now, name a developed country with more than 5 million inhabitants and a population density of lower than 500/sq km.

I can't do that. All low-tax developed states are small states with high population density. All these states are famous in their financial services.