Why is the Thameslink Core So Slow?

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm not sure it is slow. What is slow is the sub-surface part of the Tube - excruciatingly so compared with the main bit.

I would say the point is that the Northern line manages to do London Bridge-Kings Cross in a significantly shorter time, despite having more intermediate stops and generally running with much older trains and much older infrastructure, as well as usually being much more crowded. That to my mind strongly suggests that Thameslink is slow.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would say the point is that the Northern line manages to do London Bridge-Kings Cross in a significantly shorter time, despite having more intermediate stops and generally running with much older trains and much older infrastructure, as well as usually being much more crowded. That to my mind strongly suggests that Thameslink is slow.

It’s not older infrastructure. Not by a long way. The Met widened lines were built in 1866; the Northern line is 1900 to Moorgate from the south, 1907 to Euston via Kings Cross. The northern line also has c30 second dwell times (a lot more doors per metre of train, and a lot fewer seats) compared to 60 seconds on Thameslink. It’s like comparing apples with oil rigs.

 

[USBT]

It’s not older infrastructure. Not by a long way. The Met widened lines were built in 1866; the Northern line is 1900 to Moorgate from the south, 1907 to Euston via Kings Cross.

Well ... I don’t think the widened lines were fitted with ETCS in 1866.

The journey time (point to point from the LBG to STP platforms) on TL is slower because of the recovery times and because the line speed restrictions. But it’s not overall slower if you’re already on a TL compared with changing to the Northern line at LBG (once walking and getting down to the NL platforms is taken into account). And that’s the point of TL; you can get from East Croydon and points south to St. Pancras (and other connections to the tube) without having to pile out at LBG and onto the Northern line.

 

[Supercoss]

Due to the current requirement to stop southbound at Farringdon or Northbound at City Thameslink to changeover Traction current even empty stock takes a while to do this, however the quarterly track inspection train that runs under cover of darkness runs non stop through the core ( as diesel powered) the ride between Farringdon & Blackfriars up and down the gradients like a Roller coaster

 

[AM9]

I'm not sure it is slow. What is slow is the sub-surface part of the Tube - excruciatingly so compared with the main bit.

The main reason for the SS lines being slower is that:

a) their infrastructure is the oldest of all underground lines
b) there are 6 two-track flat junctions on the circle line
c) three separate services terminate on the circle lines tracks with at grade crossovers​

The deep tube however comprises all through services with no junctions in central London
In addition, the deep tube trains subjectively feel as though they are travelling faster owing to their proximity to the tunnel walls, their smaller size and lower floors, all contributing to a noisier and more rushed experience. In practice, their speeds are still between 30 and 40mph between most stations except on the newest lines (Victoria and JLE).

 

[AM9]

Due to the current requirement to stop southbound at Farringdon or Northbound at City Thameslink to changeover Traction current even empty stock takes a while to do this, however the quarterly track inspection train that runs under cover of darkness runs non stop through the core ( as diesel powered) the ride between Farringdon & Blackfriars up and down the gradients like a Roller coaster
View attachment 58578

As Bald Rick says above, the changeover is performed within the dwell times at those stations (which are now just one minute long) so except when there are failures, there is no time penalty at all.
Why is it relevant to passenger perception of slowness that an inspection train traverses the core non-stop in the quiet of the night, quicker than a train in passenger service making four stops usually in a procession of other stopping service trains?

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

I would say the point is that the Northern line manages to do London Bridge-Kings Cross in a significantly shorter time, despite having more intermediate stops and generally running with much older trains and much older infrastructure, as well as usually being much more crowded. That to my mind strongly suggests that Thameslink is slow.

The Northern line has modern ATO moving block signalling - it's anything but old infrastructure.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well ... I don’t think the widened lines were fitted with ETCS in 1866.

Well, quite. But even if they had been, the drivers probably still wouldn’t be trained yet.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I’ve always thought Thameslink was a bit of a wasted opportunity. The Sutton Loop never did seem like the best destination to send London’s only Cross London Rail service.

Agree that off peak the capacity is huge. Unfortunately, the Thameslink Route skirts the fringes of the City with no easy way to the West End. Perhaps if a stop was added on the Central Line at City Thameslink it would generate more patronage.

 

[BRX]

I’ve always thought Thameslink was a bit of a wasted opportunity. The Sutton Loop never did seem like the best destination to send London’s only Cross London Rail service.

Agree that off peak the capacity is huge. Unfortunately, the Thameslink Route skirts the fringes of the City with no easy way to the West End. Perhaps if a stop was added on the Central Line at City Thameslink it would generate more patronage.

It'll all change once the interchange with Crossrail opens at Farringdon.

Thameslink now runs to many more destinations than the Sutton Loop. Even before the timetable changes, it also ran to Brighton and out to Sevenoaks.

 

[bramling]

The main reason for the SS lines being slower is that:

a) their infrastructure is the oldest of all underground lines
b) there are 6 two-track flat junctions on the circle line
c) three separate services terminate on the circle lines tracks with at grade crossovers​

The deep tube however comprises all through services with no junctions in central London
In addition, the deep tube trains subjectively feel as though they are travelling faster owing to their proximity to the tunnel walls, their smaller size and lower floors, all contributing to a noisier and more rushed experience. In practice, their speeds are still between 30 and 40mph between most stations except on the newest lines (Victoria and JLE).

I’d say the variability of manual driving is probably now the biggest factor in LU that determines whether one will get a “fast” or “slow” journey. Some journeys on the Piccadilly Line and sun-surface lines can be excruciatingly slow, even if running on clear signals throughout. Even the Northern with its in places tortuously bad alignment reaches 50 mph in some tunnel sections, getting close on even short sections like Waterloo to Embankment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The key thing that's slow about the SSL is the glacial acceleration. The new units must be capable of much more - is a power supply upgrade planned so they can take off like a mainline Desiro does? That would save a *lot* of time on journeys.

 

[TurbostarFan]

I’ve always thought Thameslink was a bit of a wasted opportunity. The Sutton Loop never did seem like the best destination to send London’s only Cross London Rail service.

Agree that off peak the capacity is huge. Unfortunately, the Thameslink Route skirts the fringes of the City with no easy way to the West End. Perhaps if a stop was added on the Central Line at City Thameslink it would generate more patronage.

Why not just take the Circle line from Blackfriars?

 

[Aictos]

I’ve always thought Thameslink was a bit of a wasted opportunity. The Sutton Loop never did seem like the best destination to send London’s only Cross London Rail service.

Agree that off peak the capacity is huge. Unfortunately, the Thameslink Route skirts the fringes of the City with no easy way to the West End. Perhaps if a stop was added on the Central Line at City Thameslink it would generate more patronage.

Why when there's already a interchange at St Paul's for these transferring between Thameslink and the Central Line which is a 7 minute walk if that.

 

[bramling]

The key thing that's slow about the SSL is the glacial acceleration. The new units must be capable of much more - is a power supply upgrade planned so they can take off like a mainline Desiro does? That would save a *lot* of time on journeys.

The power has already largely been enhanced, however I believe performance remains slugged by software on the trains in order to preserve the integrity of the current signalling design. But a lot remains down to slow drivers - it only takes one to pull back the whole line and cause everything behind to have to run slowly too. The Piccadilly Line has become terrible for this. ATO isn’t a total solution either - it’s still possible for drivers to slow things down even with ATO.

 

[hwl]

The key thing that's slow about the SSL is the glacial acceleration. The new units must be capable of much more - is a power supply upgrade planned so they can take off like a mainline Desiro does? That would save a *lot* of time on journeys.

The resignalling going live (in many phases - 14?) will have a huge impact on the SSR. (see 93 year old signalling boxes etc.)

 

[LLivery]

Considering the distance between stations, 30mph I think it is, is quite slow for the Kentish Town - Farringdon section. That said, using it on Tuesday around midday, Southbound trains were all backed up anyway. Makes no difference if the reliability isn't Japanese.

As for the Tube Map, not having the TL core on there will be madness from May. Due to the current weekend timetable I can understand not having it on there. But, DfT should insist it goes on there from May. I would say West Hampstead/Finsbury Park - East Croydon/Peckham Rye/Greenwich. That could also help ELL overcrowding.

The Northern Line is horrendous even at 7am through London Bridge. Seeing splitting the Northern Line isn't happening anytime soon, purposely allowing it to get worse is irresponsible if they have to implement crowd control. Furthermore, when the Bank area is closed for several weeks, the keeping TL off the map is going to get even more ridiculous.

 

[aal7]

Can you use Thameslink from, for example King's Cross to London Bridge, using one-day travelcard?

 

[Esker-pades]

Can you use Thameslink from, for example King's Cross to London Bridge, using one-day travelcard?

As long as it is valid in zone 1, yes. (For the London Bridge - King's Cross example.)

 

[aal7]

As long as it is valid in zone 1, yes. (For the London Bridge - King's Cross example.)

Thanks. I am a semi-regular user of the underground and I did not know that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. I am a semi-regular user of the underground and I did not know that.

I think that's the main reason there isn't much intra-London use. People see Travelcards as "a return to London including the Underground" (which is how they are most often requested at ticket offices), often they don't even know about the bus validity.

 

[aal7]

I think that's the main reason there isn't much intra-London use. People see Travelcards as "a return to London including the Underground" (which is how they are most often requested at ticket offices), often they don't even know about the bus validity.

I knew about the bus validity but assumed the train validity was underground/overground (as in the orange lines) only. Which other "normal" trains can you use a travelcard on (assuming your travelcard covers the correct zones, of course)?

 

[Esker-pades]

I knew about the bus validity but assumed the train validity was underground/overground (as in the orange lines) only. Which other "normal" trains can you use a travelcard on (assuming your travelcard covers the correct zones, of course)?

Anything except Heathrow Express and SouthEastern HighSpeed*.

*Not entirely sure.

 

[swt_passenger]

The key thing that's slow about the SSL is the glacial acceleration. The new units must be capable of much more - is a power supply upgrade planned so they can take off like a mainline Desiro does? That would save a *lot* of time on journeys.

I think it needs the ATO signalling upgrade, they’ve been doing power supply upgrades (to 750V) for yonks.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Why when there's already a interchange at St Paul's for these transferring between Thameslink and the Central Line which is a 7 minute walk if that.

A seven minuite walk doesn’t sound brilliant when your used to a few minuites of walking in underground corridors.

 

[Verulamius]

I find it takes about 5 minutes to walk from the Jubilee line platforms at London Bridge to the Thameslink platforms. Seven minutes is not too bad in comparison.

 

[BRX]

Interchange times matter quite a lot when planning a preferred regular commute...people choose their interchange stations carefully with a cross-platform change being the gold standard. 7 mins is not insignificant, especially if it's outside in the rain on a January evening.

 

[Cosmicismsx]

Here's a tube map from '87, beautiful http://www.clarksbury.com/cdl/maps/tube87.jpg . Note the Farringdon-Blackfriars line opening 1988.

I theorise that the refusal to add non TfL/ARL to the standard tube map is entirely a financial decision. As we all know, TfL's finances are in the toilet since the government cut funding and Crossrail isn't helping. Bank tube station being shut next year could be helped by diverting people via Thameslink too.

 

[bramling]

I think it needs the ATO signalling upgrade, they’ve been doing power supply upgrades (to 750V) for yonks.

I wouldn’t necessarily bank on the resignalling enhancing journey times that much. What is gained in acceleration performance will quite possibly be lost in the deterioration in brake rate performance, bearing in mind it’s largely the same system as the Jubilee and Northern lines. There will probably be a gain from each train having consistent performance, but the issue of slow drivers doesn’t entirely go away.

Likewise things will become erratic if there’s lots of manual driving in the open sections for whatever reason - even one section of manual driving is enough to start messing up the Northern Line! Many drivers simply haven’t taken well to the Thales system, and it’s likely the SSR lines will be no different as they’re largely copying the Northern Line model.

 

[PeterC]

Thameslink "feels" slow when you use it. As somebody who is obliged to drive in London from time to time 15mph is a pretty good speed between London Bridge and St Pancras.