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Why is the UK so bad at railways?

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Sorcerer

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I must admit that my knowledge is pretty limited in regard to international railway operations, but as of now it seems to me that for the country who invented railways and trains, we seem to be especially bad at running them and investing in them. For example, while many other European countries and even some Asian countries have managed to construct high speed railways since as early as the 1960s, the UK has barely managed to construct one which is miniscule in length compared to other high speed lines on the continent, and with HS2 the project over the years consistently kept getting more expensive to the point where the eastern leg was scrapped, and at this point I wouldn't be surprised if it only became a London-Birmingham route in the end. Even outside of high speed rail it still seems like we can't invest very well into the current infrastructure.

The Elizabeth Line was also notable for it's multiple delays and even going back to the 2000s the West Coast Main Line modernisation ran over budget and three years late, and that was after the initial plans were scaled back. Despite hopes for 125 running at 2002, it ended up becoming the final product in 2008 rather than the 140 running hoped by 2005. Then on the subject of rolling stock we had the APT that was ultimately canned, and of course the Pacer train is also a prime example of bad rolling stock because it was literally a bus body on a freight wagon. Whatever charm they might have for some they were very much not fit for purpose as trains, and while initially meant as a stop gap, it took decades to actually replace them. So the question I have is why is the UK so bad at investing in it's railways and infrastructure and why does it always run into problems?

Why did the Elizabeth Line face so many delays and why was the WCML modernisation so badly budgeted, and why are we so bad at updating rolling stock that it took nearly forty years to replace poor quality rolling stock? Is there a genuine lack of political willpower in this country to properly invest in railways? Has the systematic structure of the railways in the UK enabled such bad management that we can't seem to do most things right? Is it partially down to political influences? After all, Dr Beeching's cuts happened, perhaps not coincidentally, alongside government funding of motorway construction that were being built by companies that Transport Minister Ernest Marples had an interest in, and since World War II most UK governments have been Conservative with occasional five to six year breaks of Labour governments as well as the 13-year New Labour government.

Is it maybe a cultural aspect of the UK itself? Are we simply more individualist than our European neighbours and thus don't see public transport as importantly as they do and instead prize private car ownership? Could it be a combination of bad management as well as cultural aspects? Could there be a lot more to it than that? I am genuinely interested to know why the UK despite being the inventors of the railways somehow can't do a good job at investing in their upkeep? Why have we fallen so far behind the rest of the world and why today can we still not properly manage to invest in new infrastructure projects?
 
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RPI

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The truth is we're not particularly bad at railways, we have a mix of main lines, secondary lines, rural lines where a lot of countries axed rural lines years ago.

Our railways are far from perfect but are nowhere near as bad as the main stream media would have you believe.
 

zwk500

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So there are many parts to this and I don't claim to be able to give a full answer but the following points are important:
1. We were first - this means we're lumbered with all the beginners' mistakes like loading gauges, alignments, incompatible systems etc.
2. We didn't plan the network in any systematic manner - our railways as a result are a total hotchpotch of lines, some built for specific purposes that are no longer relevant, some built on speculative hopes that never quite materialised, and some built purely for commercial strategy reasons to head off other railways. We have been left trying to manage this into a reasonable shape ever since.
3. Politicians and the Planning system - From the off, vested interests in Parliament (both pro and against rail) and the weighting of British policy towards land (and subsequently house) owners has meant railways have had to fight tooth and nail to get built and then once built fight even harder to make changes.

There are other factors at play as well, like our litigious health and safety culture, the fact that our railways run quite well considering the intensity of the service and the fact that European rail isn't really on grass that's overly green, but those 3 are the factors I'd highlight.
 

InkyScrolls

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The truth is we're not particularly bad at railways, we have a mix of main lines, secondary lines, rural lines where a lot of countries axed rural lines years ago.

Our railways are far from perfect but are nowhere near as bad as the main stream media would have you believe.
Hear hear.
[T]he Pacer train is also a prime example of bad rolling stock because it was literally a bus body on a freight wagon.
Not true. A modified wagon chassis, yes, but not a bus body. They incorporated many design principles and were built by bus manufacturers, but weren't 'literally' bus bodies. Can you imagine a bus 9' wide?
 

RPI

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Hear hear.

Not true. A modified wagon chassis, yes, but not a bus body. They incorporated many design principles and were built by bus manufacturers, but weren't 'literally' bus bodies. Can you imagine a bus 9' wide?
Pacers were the UK's answer to keeping lighter used lines open, where other countries just axed them.
 

hexagon789

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Pacers were the UK's answer to keeping lighter used lines open, where other countries just axed them.
Other countries had/have 4-axle railbuses. Certainly Belgium, Czechoslovakia, West Germany, probably others.

I believe Czechia still has some in service.

Just like the 'Derby Lightweights' before them.

Surely the 4-wheel railbuses were the direct equivalent of the Pacers, as used on many rural branches in Scotland in the 1950s and 60s.
 

zwk500

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To dive into some of this a bit deeper.
the UK has barely managed to construct one which is miniscule in length compared to other high speed lines on the continent
1 dedicated HS line but 3 Upgraded HS lines, arguably the harder task - 400 miles of the ECML and WCML each, plus the 100-odd miles of London to Bristol. In comparison to our geography that's no mean feat.
Even outside of high speed rail it still seems like we can't invest very well into the current infrastructure.
Again, if you only look for headlines you will miss many modest schemes that together are very effective. MML electrification, EWR, Felixstowe-Birmingham freight improvements, etc.
So the question I have is why is the UK so bad at investing in it's railways and infrastructure and why does it always run into problems?
In a nutshell, political goalpost shifting. Rail projects take more than one electoral cycle, so will often get sent through the political wringer multiple times. This means lots of wasted work and changing management.
Is there a genuine lack of political willpower in this country to properly invest in railways? Has the systematic structure of the railways in the UK enabled such bad management that we can't seem to do most things right? Is it partially down to political influences?
Yes.
After all, Dr Beeching's cuts happened, perhaps not coincidentally, alongside government funding of motorway construction that were being built by companies that Transport Minister Ernest Marples had an interest in, and since World War II most UK governments have been Conservative with occasional five to six year breaks of Labour governments as well as the 13-year New Labour government.
Is there actually evidence Marples acted improperly or personally benefitted from closing railways?
Is it maybe a cultural aspect of the UK itself? Are we simply more individualist than our European neighbours and thus don't see public transport as importantly as they do and instead prize private car ownership?
Geography has a large part to do with it. We are a small island, the majority of the population lives in a box less than 500x100 miles. With a good motorway network there are very few places you can't drive to in 1 day.
Could it be a combination of bad management as well as cultural aspects?
Definitely part of it. A lot of the information management in the industry is horrifically inefficient and severely detrimental to investment.
Could there be a lot more to it than that?
Certainly is.
Why have we fallen so far behind the rest of the world and why today can we still not properly manage to invest in new infrastructure projects?
If you look at comparable property-owning representative democracies you'll see they suffer from most of the same problems. To build railways like China you'd need a lack of political rights like in China.
 

eldomtom2

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The UK really isn't that bad at railways. It's mediocre at worst. Even if you restrict it to the developed world, the UK comes out looking very good when you consider that "the developed world" includes places like the US.
Geography has a large part to do with it. We are a small island, the majority of the population lives in a box less than 500x100 miles. With a good motorway network there are very few places you can't drive to in 1 day.
Normally a high population density is considered a good thing for public transportation...
 

Bertie the bus

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Pacers were the UK's answer to keeping lighter used lines open, where other countries just axed them.
That is always stated whenever Pacers come up and whilst it might be partially true it certainly isn't the whole truth. Preston - Liverpool isn't some backwater rural line but was operated by mainly Pacers for years, as were many services around the major northern cities of Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester and Newcastle.
 

zwk500

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Normally a high population density is considered a good thing for public transportation...
Hence why UK Metro services are among some of the best in the world. But Rail occupies a niche between car and plane where it is most competitive, and the UK is right at the border of that Car/Train line. Whereas France and Germany are more solidly in the 'rail' bracket.
 

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People love to complain about the railways and don't appreciate what the nation has achieved with it.
 

Sorcerer

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So I must admit that part of this post was done in response to the initial rumours that HS2 may not have gone all the way to Euston (later proven to be untrue) and to be honest based on how the project has gone it wouldn't be of any real surprise to me if HS2 ended up only being phase 1 of it's initial plans with the northern routes cancelled. This did make me forget more modest projects such as the MML electrification amongst other things. That said there are still other projects that I am reminded of such as the Swansea-Cardiff electrification. Goalpost shifting plays a big part, but I also am still left wondering about the financial aspects. Why did we do budget HS2 so badly that £32 billion turned into £100 billion, and why was the WCML modernisation so badly underbudgeted that we had to scale back plans.

It seems like bad rail management in this country is systematic because of how much a different government can change a project's goalposts and because of how even now industrial disputes cannot be resolved without involvement of the Department for Transport. I do understand that there are some other aspects that cannot be fixed without huge expenditure such as the loading gauge which scales down our trains compared to other European models and makes it nearly impossible to have double decker trains (which to be fair aren't really an effective solution for the issues we have), but I think it's still necessary for me to acknowledge that I did forget some of the more positive things that have been achieved such as aforementioned route upgrades. Nevertheless there are still serious problems of the UK railway that I still stand by.

Is there actually evidence Marples acted improperly or personally benefitted from closing railways?
I must admit that I only recently learned of this yesterday and thus haven't seen a lot of evidence to support the claim, but when there is a conflict of interest of such nature where you would personally benefit from the construction of the motorways then it might draw some eyes when the railways are cut down at roughly the same time. It could be a coincidence, but I think it would be something that should still prompt investigation if it occurred today.
 

Bald Rick

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well, actually, we’re not that bad. But could do better. What hampers us, in short is:

History, Geography, and Politics.
 

OverSpeed

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People love to complain about the railways and don't appreciate what the nation has achieved with it.
Be careful pgat, someone might say that rail was a lot better before the beeching cuts! ;)


I personally think that not only rail, but public transport as a whole in the uk needs to be better ran with a far greater system implemented for better integration hubs with rail/bus/transit/Road.

I guess with op questions about why wcml and Crossrail took too long and be over budget might be down to the fact that the projects were badly managed with the wrong type of people doing the works....
 

43096

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Pacers were the UK's answer to keeping lighter used lines open, where other countries just axed them.
Why do people still keep trotting out this myth? Pacers were used on all sort of lines, but a big number were used in the Manchester and Leeds metropolitan areas. They were certainly not explicitly to keep lighter used lines open - the threat of closure (Serpell report) had largely receded by the time they came about.
 

bramling

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I must admit that my knowledge is pretty limited in regard to international railway operations, but as of now it seems to me that for the country who invented railways and trains, we seem to be especially bad at running them and investing in them. For example, while many other European countries and even some Asian countries have managed to construct high speed railways since as early as the 1960s, the UK has barely managed to construct one which is miniscule in length compared to other high speed lines on the continent, and with HS2 the project over the years consistently kept getting more expensive to the point where the eastern leg was scrapped, and at this point I wouldn't be surprised if it only became a London-Birmingham route in the end. Even outside of high speed rail it still seems like we can't invest very well into the current infrastructure.

The Elizabeth Line was also notable for it's multiple delays and even going back to the 2000s the West Coast Main Line modernisation ran over budget and three years late, and that was after the initial plans were scaled back. Despite hopes for 125 running at 2002, it ended up becoming the final product in 2008 rather than the 140 running hoped by 2005. Then on the subject of rolling stock we had the APT that was ultimately canned, and of course the Pacer train is also a prime example of bad rolling stock because it was literally a bus body on a freight wagon. Whatever charm they might have for some they were very much not fit for purpose as trains, and while initially meant as a stop gap, it took decades to actually replace them. So the question I have is why is the UK so bad at investing in it's railways and infrastructure and why does it always run into problems?

Why did the Elizabeth Line face so many delays and why was the WCML modernisation so badly budgeted, and why are we so bad at updating rolling stock that it took nearly forty years to replace poor quality rolling stock? Is there a genuine lack of political willpower in this country to properly invest in railways? Has the systematic structure of the railways in the UK enabled such bad management that we can't seem to do most things right? Is it partially down to political influences? After all, Dr Beeching's cuts happened, perhaps not coincidentally, alongside government funding of motorway construction that were being built by companies that Transport Minister Ernest Marples had an interest in, and since World War II most UK governments have been Conservative with occasional five to six year breaks of Labour governments as well as the 13-year New Labour government.

Is it maybe a cultural aspect of the UK itself? Are we simply more individualist than our European neighbours and thus don't see public transport as importantly as they do and instead prize private car ownership? Could it be a combination of bad management as well as cultural aspects? Could there be a lot more to it than that? I am genuinely interested to know why the UK despite being the inventors of the railways somehow can't do a good job at investing in their upkeep? Why have we fallen so far behind the rest of the world and why today can we still not properly manage to invest in new infrastructure projects?

I’m not sure we’re particularly bad at railways specifically, more that in the last small handful of decades this country has become pretty bad at most things, railways being one of many. We seem to be living off the legacy of what past generations have left for us, including expertise, rather than maintaining this and building upon it going forward.

There’s many reasons for this, however I’d speculate the part of the problem is financial - a significant amount of tax is generated by a comparatively small number of people, and a significant proportion of the population contribute very little yet still cost the taxpayer heavily. Likewise the country is heavily and densely populated (especially the south-east) so relatively small things cost a fortune because of the amount of engineering involved. Lastly most of our institutions were, arguably, deliberately dumbed down by New Labour, something the current breed of Conservatives seem to have continued, meaning what we’re left with is rather dysfunctional.

And to cap it off a population who would rather vote in political leaders who have made a career writing insulting magazine articles with dubious factual content rather than people with proven track records of talent.
 
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Adrian1980uk

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I think there is also a problem with projects in the public sector, given our media as well. If hs2 started with the budget of 100 billion then it would have been laughed out of the door of the treasury, same with defence procurement. To get any project off the ground you have to submit best case and then once the treasury has invested you then move the goalposts to get what you need and gradually the budget has to increase as well.

The MOD have been masters of it
 

Oxfordblues

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The United States is often cited as one of the most advanced civilisations, but try riding their long-distance trains. My last journey arrived over 8 hours late, but there was no explanation, no apology and course no delay-repay. Whatever you say about Avanti West Coast you often get free first-class travel (when your train is over 60 minutes late, which is not unusual!)

And as for France, held up by many as the European exemplar of high-speed rail travel, the irregular frequencies and sparse service on many lines fall far short of the TGV image. Dieppe is the nearest coastal resort town to Paris, yet it is served by just one through train per week (18:25 Sundays-only). Imagine Brighton commuters putting up with that!
 

Carlisle

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To dive into some of this a bit deeper.

1 dedicated HS line but 3 Upgraded HS lines, arguably the harder task - 400 miles of the ECML and WCML each, plus the 100-odd miles of London to Bristol. In comparison to our geography that's no mean feat.
If we’re discussing the diesel & electric era, the ECML & WCML upgrades essentially took place over several decades for the Deltics, HSTs & 91s on the East & 81s -390s on the West
 

zwk500

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The United States is often cited as one of the most advanced civilisations, but try riding their long-distance trains. My last journey arrived over 8 hours late, but there was no explanation, no apology and course no delay-repay. Whatever you say about Avanti West Coast you often get free first-class travel (when your train is over 60 minutes late, which is not unusual!)
The US is about freight rail, at which they very much do lead the world. US Railroads also realised the commercial power of the computer before just about anybody else.
And as for France, held up by many as the European exemplar of high-speed rail travel, the irregular frequencies and sparse service on many lines fall far short of the TGV image. Dieppe is the nearest coastal resort town to Paris, yet it is served by just one through train per week (18:25 Sundays-only). Imagine Brighton commuters putting up with that!
Tbf Newhaven & Seaford, Dieppe's counterparts, don't even get a service to London at all.

If we’re discussing the diesel & electric era, the ECML & WCML upgrades essentially took place over several decades for the Deltics, HSTs & 91s on the East & 81s -390s on the West
They did, but that doesn't stop it being an achievement when you consider how much harder upgrading a line is than building one from new.
 

Fazaar1889

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Again, if you only look for headlines you will miss many modest schemes that together are very effective. MML electrification, EWR, Felixstowe-Birmingham freight improvements, etc.
Could you provide more example please? I haven't been following railways long so most of my knowledge would've previously come from mainstream media...
 

dosxuk

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One of the issues with megaprojects like HS2 or Crossrail is that it is incredibly difficult to know in advance how much they are going to cost to build. As someone else said, if you give the worst-case figure, then you'll almost certainly come in below that, but you'll never be given the chance to build it anyway. If you give the best-cast figure, you'll almost certainly find you've missed something, or other factors cause costs to grow, and then need bailing out. The media in this country know that printing stories about projects going over budget is great material for the opponents of those plans, and therefore sells advertising space.

When Crossrail was being budgeted, two major factors, that could not have been predicted, ended up affecting the programme time, access to materials and labour, and therefore pushed the costs up - Brexit and Covid lockdowns. If contingency for either of those factors was added to the original budget, they'd have been laughed out of the enquiries, and there would be lots of people asking questions like "I assume if you don't need that money for them, then it'll just be going into the bosses pockets".
 

bramling

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One of the issues with megaprojects like HS2 or Crossrail is that it is incredibly difficult to know in advance how much they are going to cost to build. As someone else said, if you give the worst-case figure, then you'll almost certainly come in below that, but you'll never be given the chance to build it anyway. If you give the best-cast figure, you'll almost certainly find you've missed something, or other factors cause costs to grow, and then need bailing out. The media in this country know that printing stories about projects going over budget is great material for the opponents of those plans, and therefore sells advertising space.

When Crossrail was being budgeted, two major factors, that could not have been predicted, ended up affecting the programme time, access to materials and labour, and therefore pushed the costs up - Brexit and Covid lockdowns. If contingency for either of those factors was added to the original budget, they'd have been laughed out of the enquiries, and there would be lots of people asking questions like "I assume if you don't need that money for them, then it'll just be going into the bosses pockets".

Politics seemed to play a part with Crossrail. At the point where they were still claiming all was well, anyone who had a look round the various stations from street level could see that there was no way they were going to be ready within what was at the time a matter of weeks. How come the politicians were seemingly unaware of this?
 

zwk500

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Could you provide more example please? I haven't been following railways long so most of my knowledge would've previously come from mainstream media...
Southampton 775m enhancement (admittedly initially planned quite a while ago), Okehampton reopening, Bristol TM remodelling. In progress but largely ticking on nicely include Northumberland line, Church Fenton OLE (as part of TRU), ECML Power supply upgrade. Thanet Parkway station.
 

Fazaar1889

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Southampton 775m enhancement (admittedly initially planned quite a while ago), Okehampton reopening, Bristol TM remodelling. In progress but largely ticking on nicely include Northumberland line, Church Fenton OLE (as part of TRU), ECML Power supply upgrade. Thanet Parkway station.
Thanks!
 

Irascible

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Because we're terrible at national planning, not great at large-scale management, and ideology keeps getting in the way.

Politics, education and selfishness, if you must have it like that.
 

AdamWW

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Hear hear.

Not true. A modified wagon chassis, yes, but not a bus body. They incorporated many design principles and were built by bus manufacturers, but weren't 'literally' bus bodies. Can you imagine a bus 9' wide?

I think it's fair to say that at least 142's had bus bodies as is evident if you compare photos of them and Leyland National buses. Yes they were wider but made from the same panels and interior fittings. I think it goes beyond just using bus design principles.

And while we don't have buses as wide as a train, we had the reverse because the 141's (not technically Pacers but the predecessor to the 142's) were bus width.

Politics seemed to play a part with Crossrail. At the point where they were still claiming all was well, anyone who had a look round the various stations from street level could see that there was no way they were going to be ready within what was at the time a matter of weeks. How come the politicians were seemingly unaware of this?

Top level management believing what they were told, and not going to look?
 

zwk500

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If you have a look at railway-specific press (Modern Railways, New Civil Engineer, the International Railway Journal all have limited free access) and Network Rail's website (News page and Railway Upgrade Plan page) you'll get the smaller projects.
 

philosopher

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I was in Central Europe last summer and while the trains there were comfortable and reasonably frequent, they were not exactly speedy, I doubt any of the trains ever got above 100 mph and for much of the time they seemed to be only travelling at 30 to 50 mph. This included the Railjet between Prague and Vienna which I think is regarded as one of the best train services in Europe.

This summer I visiting Spain. The frequencies of trains in Spain appear to be very poor. The appears to be only direct train a day on the route I am using, which seems not to run on Saturdays.

While the UK does only have one purpose built high speed railway, train frequencies are quite good, usually hourly or better and services I find are generally reasonably fast, with most intercity services travelling between 100 and 125 mph.

Train comfort and facilities in the UK I do however think are worse than most of Europe. UK trains I find have less comfortable seating, poor catering facilities and poor passenger information systems. In Europe most of trains I was on last summer had restaurants and LCD passenger information screens. The former are non existent and latter are still rare in the UK.
 
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