Why isn't Farringdon a London Terminal?

[miklcct]

There are a few non-terminal stations in the London Terminals group, including City Thameslink, Waterloo East, Vauxhall and Old Street.

Vauxhall and Old Street are zone 1 stations immediately next to the associated terminal.
Waterloo East can be considered as part of Waterloo.
City Thameslink is a direct replacement of Holborn Viaduct, which was a terminal station.

Using the same reasoning, Farringdon was on the line between Kings Cross (a terminal station) and Moorgate (another terminal station). Why isn't Farringdon classified as a London Terminal from the north as well? When train service operated through Kings Cross and Moorgate via Farringdon, could a London Terminals ticket be used all the way to Moorgate through Farringdon?

 

[A Challenge]

When train service operated through Kings Cross and Moorgate via Farringdon, could a London Terminals ticket be used all the way to Moorgate through Farringdon?

I don't know about the history, but I do know that Kings Cross to Moorgate on LU is valid on a London Terminals ticket, including entry/exit at Old Street but not Farringdon

 

[AM9]

Until recently Farringdon had just one gateline and the whole station was controlled by LU. Now the National Rail (NR) services have their own gatelines (yes there have been discussion on here as to whether the Lizzie core is still NR in services terms), so maybe there is a way that Farringdon's status as regards TL services could be redefined.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are a few non-terminal stations in the London Terminals group, including City Thameslink, Waterloo East, Vauxhall and Old Street.

Vauxhall and Old Street are zone 1 stations immediately next to the associated terminal.
Waterloo East can be considered as part of Waterloo.
City Thameslink is a direct replacement of Holborn Viaduct, which was a terminal station.

Using the same reasoning, Farringdon was on the line between Kings Cross (a terminal station) and Moorgate (another terminal station). Why isn't Farringdon classified as a London Terminal from the north as well? When train service operated through Kings Cross and Moorgate via Farringdon, could a London Terminals ticket be used all the way to Moorgate through Farringdon?

Wasn’t this effectively answered in a similar thread in July?

Why Farringdon is not listed in London Station Group (Wikipedia article)

Hi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_station_group London station group The London station group is a group of 18 railway stations served by the National Rail network in central London. Most are terminal stations, either serving major national services or local commuter routes. A small...

www.railforums.co.uk

When Thameslink commenced through running via the Snow Hill tunnels for some reason, (unexplained at the time), they decided that they’d introduce a new “London Thameslink“ fares group as the destination from the north, (MML only at the time). Moorgate wasn’t a valid London Terminal from the MML, and the inter availability allowing travel on LU between Kings Cross and Moorgate didn’t actually include Farringdon or Barbican - even if people assumed it did.

City Thameslink was however a London Terminal from the south because it directly replaced the former physical terminus of Holborn Viaduct.

 

[miklcct]

Moorgate wasn’t a valid London Terminal from the MML

So when the trains actually ran from the MML to Moorgate via Farringdon, one couldn't use a London Terminals ticket beyond Kings Cross Thameslink, right?

 

[Gonzoiku]

Wasn’t this effectively answered in a similar thread in July?

Why Farringdon is not listed in London Station Group (Wikipedia article)

Hi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_station_group London station group The London station group is a group of 18 railway stations served by the National Rail network in central London. Most are terminal stations, either serving major national services or local commuter routes. A small...

www.railforums.co.uk

When Thameslink commenced through running via the Snow Hill tunnels for some reason, (unexplained at the time), they decided that they’d introduce a new “London Thameslink“ fares group as the destination from the north, (MML only at the time). Moorgate wasn’t a valid London Terminal from the MML, and the inter availability allowing travel on LU between Kings Cross and Moorgate didn’t actually include Farringdon or Barbican - even if people assumed it did.

City Thameslink was however a London Terminal from the south because it directly replaced the former physical terminus of Holborn Viaduct.

As a commuter from the north before electrification of the line to Moorgate until after the reopening of Snow Hill Tunnel, I can corroborate what SWT_passenger says. Farringdon was never a terminal of any sort, neither BR nor LU (as was) and alighting/boarding there (or Barbican) required a LU Zone 1 ticket I can't speak for Moorgate, as that was beyond my "parish". I recall that in 1983 an annual season ticket Bedford-Zone 1 was a princely £1212. However did I afford it?

GZ

 

[swt_passenger]

So when the trains actually ran from the MML to Moorgate via Farringdon, one couldn't use a London Terminals ticket beyond Kings Cross Thameslink, right?

No you couldn’t. IIRC from Bedford and stations south of there you’d normally have been sold a ticket to London Thameslink, and from stations further north of Bedford your journey to London Terminals would have normally ended in the main St Pancras terminus. The fares manual copy I have, NFM 99, isn’t clear about the status of the old KX Thameslink station though, as I think it had just closed in favour of the new station under Midland Rd.

This post has the fares diagram from NFM99 attached:

Validity of 'London Thameslink' tickets

Hi all, Recently, I was travelling from Bedford to London on a ticket marked 'London Thameslink', route 'Any Permitted'. Seeing as I wished to travel to Blackfriars, this presented no difficulty, however I was wondering if: Such a ticket is valid only through the Thameslink Core, ie would it...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

As a commuter from the north before electrification of the line to Moorgate until after the reopening of Snow Hill Tunnel, I can corroborate what SWT_passenger says. Farringdon was never a terminal of any sort, neither BR nor LU (as was) and alighting/boarding there (or Barbican) required a LU Zone 1 ticket I can't speak for Moorgate, as that was beyond my "parish". I recall that in 1983 an annual season ticket Bedford-Zone 1 was a princely £1212. However did I afford it?

GZ

I will also confirm that travel to Farringdon required a Zone U1 ticket, as did Barbican. I believe that at Moorgate a London terminals ticket could be used, as was the case at Kings Cross Thameslink. I have a feeling that the same arrangement at Farringdon persisted for some time after the line through City Thameslink was opened.

 

[Gonzoiku]

I will also confirm that travel to Farringdon required a Zone U1 ticket, as did Barbican. I believe that at Moorgate a London terminals ticket could be used, as was the case at Kings Cross Thameslink. I have a feeling that the same arrangement at Farringdon persisted for some time after the line through City Thameslink was opened.

The Zone 1 arrangement at Farringdon did indeed continue after the opening of the line through City Thameslink. Kings Cross Thameslink was the "end of the line" in BR ticketing terms, a Zone 1 ticket was needed to go any further South. I believe the logic was based on Farringdon (and Barbican) being LU stations, not BR.

GZ

No you couldn’t. IIRC from Bedford and stations south of there you’d normally have been sold a ticket to London Thameslink, and from stations further north of Bedford your journey to London Terminals would have normally ended in the main St Pancras terminus. The fares manual copy I have, NFM 99, isn’t clear about the status of the old KX Thameslink station though, as I think it had just closed in favour of the new station under Midland Rd.

This post has the fares diagram from NFM99 attached:

Validity of 'London Thameslink' tickets

Hi all, Recently, I was travelling from Bedford to London on a ticket marked 'London Thameslink', route 'Any Permitted'. Seeing as I wished to travel to Blackfriars, this presented no difficulty, however I was wondering if: Such a ticket is valid only through the Thameslink Core, ie would it...

www.railforums.co.uk

KX Thameslink was a BR station, and a London Terminal from the North. AFAIK. But it was 30 years ago!

But I don't recall if, when joining the Underground via the long tunnel from KX Thameslink, there were any ticket barriers to prevent BR passengers getting uncontrolled access. Anyone?

GZ

 

[Haywain]

KX Thameslink was a BR station, and a London Terminal from the North. AFAIK. But it was 30 years ago!

A London Terminal station from its opening in 1983 to its closure in 2007. I used it regularly for the last 6 years of its life, but can't remember what the situation was with barriers between it and the underground station.

 

[yorkie]

There are a few non-terminal stations in the London Terminals group, including City Thameslink, Waterloo East, Vauxhall and Old Street.

Vauxhall and Old Street are zone 1 stations immediately next to the associated terminal.
Waterloo East can be considered as part of Waterloo.
City Thameslink is a direct replacement of Holborn Viaduct, which was a terminal station.

Using the same reasoning, Farringdon was on the line between Kings Cross (a terminal station) and Moorgate (another terminal station). Why isn't Farringdon classified as a London Terminal from the north as well? When train service operated through Kings Cross and Moorgate via Farringdon, could a London Terminals ticket be used all the way to Moorgate through Farringdon?

TfL won't want the revenue abstraction; it would make all sorts of tickets valid for journeys which TfL wants to charge a premium for.

You can make the same argument for every station in the Crossrail core and TfL went out of their way to tell booking sites to treat it as if it's a "tube" line!

 

[miklcct]

I don't know about the history, but I do know that Kings Cross to Moorgate on LU is valid on a London Terminals ticket, including entry/exit at Old Street but not Farringdon

Moorgate wasn’t a valid London Terminal from the MML, and the inter availability allowing travel on LU between Kings Cross and Moorgate didn’t actually include Farringdon or Barbican - even if people assumed it did.

No you couldn’t. IIRC from Bedford and stations south of there you’d normally have been sold a ticket to London Thameslink, and from stations further north of Bedford your journey to London Terminals would have normally ended in the main St Pancras terminus.

I will also confirm that travel to Farringdon required a Zone U1 ticket, as did Barbican. I believe that at Moorgate a London terminals ticket could be used, as was the case at Kings Cross Thameslink.

I'm getting confused now. The above statements all confirm that, when the BR line between Farringdon and Moorgate was open, one couldn't travel from a MML station to Moorgate on a through train on a London Terminals ticket, but instead required a zone U1 ticket, right? In contrast, for travelling from a GN station using a London Terminals ticket, one could travel to either Kings Cross or Moorgate (via Finsbury Park) but not to use the line between Kings Cross and Moorgate?

So what's the reason of the current LU interavailability between Kings Cross and Moorgate, but not to exit at Farringdon and Barbican? If the line between Kings Cross and Moorgate were considered to be "beyond London Terminals" and required a zone U1 ticket historically rather than a pure London Terminals ticket, why is interavailability needed?

 

[swt_passenger]

So what's the reason of the current LU interavailability between Kings Cross and Moorgate, but not to exit at Farringdon and Barbican? If the line between Kings Cross and Moorgate were considered to be "beyond London Terminals" and required a zone U1 ticket historically rather than a pure London Terminals ticket, why is interavailability needed?

Prior to the 1976 suburban electrification some of the “Great Northern” local services ran all the way down the ECML, descending in the vicinity of the Kings Cross throat (the physically separate York Rd platform), and then to Moorgate via Kings Cross Metropolitan, (the future Kings Cross Midland City, future Kings Cross Thameslink), then via Farringdon and Barbican. The direct route that you are familiar with now, from Finsbury Park to Moorgate, effectively superseded the earlier route. However they maintained inter-availability on LU for people who’d previously been able to travel that way, eg to Barbican. But the newly converted underground direct route wasn’t open at weekends either, I suspect because the city wasn’t considered a mainstream destination at weekends. Another reason to maintain dual availability, was it also allowed for disruption.

But this was all happening quite a few years before Thameslink was thought of, and “London Terminals” as we know it also came in a lot later.

 

[Haywain]

But this was all happening quite a few years before Thameslink was thought of, and “London Terminals” as we know it also came in a lot later.

Yes, in those days I think the destination was London (E.R.).

 

[miklcct]

However they maintained inter-availability on LU for people who’d previously been able to travel that way, eg to Barbican. But the newly converted underground direct route wasn’t open at weekends either, I suspect because the city wasn’t considered a mainstream destination at weekends. Another reason to maintain dual availability, was it also allowed for disruption.

So in the past were passengers able to travel to Moorgate on a London Terminal, or at that time, called London (E.R.) ticket and end the journey at Farringdon or Barbican? If it is the case why isn't the provision of leaving at Farringdon or Barbican kept in the interavailability?

 

[swt_passenger]

So in the past were passengers able to travel to Moorgate on a London Terminal, or at that time, called London (E.R.) ticket and end the journey at Farringdon or Barbican? If it is the case why isn't the provision of leaving at Farringdon or Barbican kept in the interavailability?

Dunno I’m afraid. I suspect it’s all changed since the 1970s anyway. As I’ve said earlier, what people did in practice may not necessarily have been allowed by the rules. The route certainly wasn’t fully barriered, visual checks would have been fairly cursory.

 

[Western Sunset]

So for those travelling to Moorgate from MML stations (Luton, St Albans, etc) in the early 1970s, would there be a London (LMR) ticket?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Don't forget, automatic ticket barriers weren't installed on the Underground until the late 80s, so people could easily have got away with using tickets that weren't valid

Coming from the south, to get past City Thameslink once Thameslink opened, you needed a U1 or a through ticket. Direct tickets to Farringdon or Kings Cross route Not Underground were also available.
Can't remember whether Thameslink opening predated Capitalcards or not?

 

[Gonzoiku]

So in the past were passengers able to travel to Moorgate on a London Terminal, or at that time, called London (E.R.) ticket and end the journey at Farringdon or Barbican? If it is the case why isn't the provision of leaving at Farringdon or Barbican kept in the interavailability?

It is not the case. BR tickets were not valid at Farringdon and Barbican.

GZ

 

[Julia]

I don't know about the history, but I do know that Kings Cross to Moorgate on LU is valid on a London Terminals ticket, including entry/exit at Old Street but not Farringdon

Apologies for reopening this after such a long time but it's suddenly relevant to me due to a job change... so a St Neots - London Terminals season is valid on the fast GN services to Kings Cross and then the Northern Line to Old Street? I'm very surprised it would get me through the LU gateline.

 

[yorkie]

If a National Rail ticket, with a destination/origin of London Terminals is valid into/out of King's Cross, then it is also valid for travel for a direct journey between King's Cross St. Pancras and either Old Street or Moorgate.

 

[Haywain]

Apologies for reopening this after such a long time but it's suddenly relevant to me due to a job change... so a St Neots - London Terminals season is valid on the fast GN services to Kings Cross and then the Northern Line to Old Street? I'm very surprised it would get me through the LU gateline.

If the season ticket is on a smartcard it should operate the barriers at Old Street.

 

[Hadders]

The ticket is highly unlikely to operate the underground barriers at Kings Cross St Pancras station but they will let you through manually if you say you’re going to Moorgate or Okd Street.

It shouldn’t make any difference whether or not the ticket is held on paper or a smartcard but I’d expect more hassle if it’s not paper.

 

[Haywain]

The ticket is highly unlikely to operate the underground barriers at Kings Cross St Pancras station but they will let you through manually if you say you’re going to Moorgate or Okd Street.

It shouldn’t make any difference whether or not the ticket is held on paper or a smartcard but I’d expect more hassle if it’s not paper.

London Terminals tickets issued on (TfL approved) TOC smartcards should work the barriers at Old Street. I personally tested this functionality on LNER smartcards, so have some confidence that it will work.

 

[Hadders]

London Terminals tickets issued on (TfL approved) TOC smartcards should work the barriers at Old Street. I personally tested this functionality on LNER smartcards, so have some confidence that it will work.

But will it work at King’s Cross St Pancras?

 

[Haywain]

But will it work at King’s Cross St Pancras?

Yes.

 

[Julia]

That's great - many thanks all!

 

[JonathanH]

Just to add one bit on this. While looking for something else, I noted this posting from 'johnnycache' in 2014, noting the reluctance of TfL to have tickets to London Terminals opening the barriers at underground stations, that effectively led to the 'London Thameslink' destination.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...inals-maidstone-stns-etc.101622/#post-1816301

I worked at Thameslink from 1996 (having left South Central just before Connex took over) and the London Thameslink arrangement was in place then

It was an attempt to simplify ticketing for Thameslink passengers from the north of London to Farringdon, Barbican, Moorgate, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge and Elephant and Castle

As i recall it was for day tickets only and had tube validity

The more obvious solution would have been to extend London Terminals to Farringdon and further south but TfL have always been nervous about enabling any ticket with destination 1072 to open Underground ticket gates because of the fraud opportunities it presents

Something will have to be done to accomodate Thameslink + Crossrail

 

[Julia]

Well... it does work! The smartcard opens the barriers at Kings Cross (old tube ticket hall) heading towards Old Street; haven't yet tried the reverse direction.

 

[redreni]

A London Terminal station from its opening in 1983 to its closure in 2007. I used it regularly for the last 6 years of its life, but can't remember what the situation was with barriers between it and the underground station.

There weren't any. At least not right at the end of that period.

I moved to Walthamstow in 2006 and commuted to an office near Mount Pleasant postal depot. You could (and I did) get off the Vic line at Kings Cross St Pancras, exit via the Kings Cross Thameslink gateline and proceed north up King's Cross Road towards Mount Pleasant. (Until I worked out it was better to get a zone 2-3 season ticket, get off at Highbury & Islington and jump on a number 19).