Why, oh why? (High through fare easily beaten by splitting)

[les.]

I know that this has been going on forever but does anyone know the actually reason why this is.

I am travelling from Grimsby Town to Workington next month (yes I really live a thrilling life ) When I look at a buying a return ticket Grimsby to Workington, the cheapest it is quoting me (with my disabled railcard) is £107.80!!

However I can get 2 singles to and from Man Picc for £13.20 and 2 singles 2 and from Man Picc to Workington for £10.45! A total of £47.30, less than half price than if I had bought a direct Grimsby to Workington return.

A less savvy person would probably just buy the Gy to Work return but as I am well aware that looking at singles and breaking the journey is often cheaper then that's what I have done.

I'm not really saying make things far easier as then tickets would obviously go up but I was just wondering how TOC's justify this.

 

[ainsworth74]

Looking at it the only APs on that route appear to be routed Avanti & Connections but journey planners appear to be showing primarily TPE to Manchester, then TPE to Carlisle and Northern on from their (which makes sense) so the cheap Avanti tickets aren't showing up at all. And cheap they be! With a Railcard their priced between £11.15 and £20.95 for the whole journey from Grimsby to Workington. Can't find a way of making them show though.

As for the justification it's an artefact of the system being monstrously complex I would suggest but I think the real question is: "Why aren't TPE offering any TPE & Connections tickets considering most passengers are going to use TPE all the way from Grimsby to Carlisle?" that seems like the missing factor here. Why are the only APs priced by Avanti?

 

[Watershed]

I know that this has been going on forever but does anyone know the actually reason why this is.

The only non-split Advance tickets for journey are route Avanti & Connections, but it's (almost) impossible to find trains with availability for those tickets. So you are only being offered walkup tickets.

I am travelling from Grimsby Town to Workington (yes I really live a thrilling life ) When I look at a buying a return ticket Grimsby to Workington, the cheapest it is quoting me (with my disabled railcard) is £107.80!!

That's the cost of the Railcard discounted Anytime "Short Distance" Return.

However I can get 2 singles to and from Man Picc for £13.20 and 2 singles 2 and from Man Picc to Workington for £10.45! A total of £47.30, less than half price than if I had bought a direct Grimsby to Workington return.

A less savvy person would probably just buy the Gy to Work return but as I am well aware that looking at singles and breaking the journey is often cheaper then that's what I have done.

Splitting tickets is often cheaper than buying a through ticket, particularly on journeys like these which will inherently involve several different TOCs.

I was just wondering how TOC's can justify this?

Morally, they can't really. But ultimately the number of people who make journeys like yours are very, very small. The industry is not particularly interested in making these journeys easier or cheaper.

Those who are price sensitive will split tickets, or travel by another means, or not travel at all. And those who are not so price sensitive will just pay up.

In many ways the DfT and the TOCs are happy for things to stay that way.

 

[ComUtoR]

Just having a quick check and the cheaper singles are 'Advance Tickets' they are booked to specific trains and have less flexibility. Sold in limited numbers and the price frequently changes (I believe)

 

[thedbdiboy]

It can't be justified which is why fare setting will move to the new GBR set up as part of the Williams-Shapps white paper changes. It just takes some time to set up.

The problem is traceable back to the unresolved contradictions of the original privatisation structure:

1) BR would be abolished and separate Train Operators would be created, who would set fares
2) However in response to concerns about fragmentation, these Train Operators would have to ensure that through network fares valid on each others' services are maintained
3) But as they are separate companies under Competition Law they cannot discuss pricing with each other, so the resultant national fares structure ends up in a mess

 

[Watershed]

But as they are separate companies under Competition Law they cannot discuss pricing with each other, so the resultant national fares structure ends up in a mess

Joint Advance (and even flexible) tickets exist all over the place, so this clearly is not a blanket rule.

 

[JB_B]

It can't be justified which is why fare setting will move to the new GBR set up as part of the Williams-Shapps white paper changes. It just takes some time to set up.
....

Can you say how things will be different once fare setting becomes GBR's responsibility?

 

[les.]

Just having a quick check and the cheaper singles are 'Advance Tickets' they are booked to specific trains and have less flexibility. Sold in limited numbers and the price frequently changes (I believe)

So basically, that means that there are no "Advance Tickets" available from Grimsby to Workington for some reason, even though there are when you split the journey and you'd be travelling on exactly the same trains. Rather strange.

 

[Haywain]

The only non-split Advance tickets for journey are route Avanti & Connections, but it's (almost) impossible to find trains with availability for those tickets.

Almost certainly a problem of availability on the TPE services.

So basically, that means that there are no "Advance Tickets" available from Grimsby to Workington for some reason, even though there are when you split the journey and you'd be travelling on exactly the same trains. Rather strange.

This is far from being an unusual situation.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Can you say how things will be different once fare setting becomes GBR's responsibility?

There's no guarantee anything will change under GBR, though fares might be "simplified".
The "expensive" walk-on fare is probably the old BR fare adjusted for 25 years of inflation, and will be the standard fare.
(There's an off-peak return (SVR) fare after 0900 at £78.40 with railcard which strikes me as reasonable value - £107.80 is the peak fare).
The "cheap" advance fares are mostly products of competition and market segmentation, which are likely to disappear or be more limited in future.
The current availability of cheap advances is seriously impacted by the reservation-only policy of some TOCs during covid, and by social distancing.

 

[Haywain]

The current availability of cheap advances is seriously impacted by the reservation-only policy of some TOCs during covid, and by social distancing.

I would suggest that neither of these play a significant role in the availability of the Avanti fare mentioned by Watershed.

 

[Llandudno]

I know that this has been going on forever but does anyone know the actually reason why this is.

I am travelling from Grimsby Town to Workington next month (yes I really live a thrilling life ) When I look at a buying a return ticket Grimsby to Workington, the cheapest it is quoting me (with my disabled railcard) is £107.80!!

However I can get 2 singles to and from Man Picc for £13.20 and 2 singles 2 and from Man Picc to Workington for £10.45! A total of £47.30, less than half price than if I had bought a direct Grimsby to Workington return.

A less savvy person would probably just buy the Gy to Work return but as I am well aware that looking at singles and breaking the journey is often cheaper then that's what I have done.

I'm not really saying make things far easier as then tickets would obviously go up but I was just wondering how TOC's justify this.

A less (or more!) savvy person would see the £107 ticket price and take the car…!

 

[ashworth]

So basically, that means that there are no "Advance Tickets" available from Grimsby to Workington for some reason, even though there are when you split the journey and you'd be travelling on exactly the same trains. Rather strange.

That’s very often the case for many journeys of that type. I often find East to West journeys across the north of England, involving more than one TOC very expensive. I used to regularly visit friends near Blackpool and could never understand why there were no Advance tickets available from Nottingham to Blackpool North when it was a simple journey with just one change of train at Manchester. I always had to split tickets at Manchester to access cheap advance fares.

 

[ainsworth74]

That’s very often the case for many journeys of that type. I often find East to West journeys across the north of England, involving more than one TOC very expensive. I used to regularly visit friends near Blackpool and could never understand why there were no Advance tickets available from Nottingham to Blackpool North when it was a simple journey with just one change of train at Manchester. I always had to split tickets at Manchester to access cheap advance fares.

Looks like a similar issue to here. Most APs appear to be Avanti & Connections, EMR & TPE Only or CrossCountry & Connections when journey planners mostly just offer EMR to Manchester and change for Northern from there. Hence there are no APs that are available for the journeys that are actually being done. This one needs a EMR & Northern Only (or just EMR & Connections).

 

[Haywain]

Looks like a similar issue to here. Most APs appear to be Avanti & Connections, EMR & TPE Only or CrossCountry & Connections when journey planners mostly just offer EMR to Manchester and change for Northern from there. Hence there are no APs that are available for the journeys that are actually being done. This one needs a EMR & Northern Only (or just EMR & Connections).

It’s bizarre that there are fares for that journey, routed EMR & TPE only, when neither of the TOCs serve Blackpool North or any of the other stations in that fare cluster.

 

[ashworth]

It’s bizarre that there are fares for that journey when neither of the TOCs serve Blackpool North or any of the other stations in that fare cluster.

Occasionally I could get Nottingham to Blackpool North Advance tickets via Crewe and once even got a XC & connections AP by changing at Chesterfield and Leeds. Interestingly, I could often get very cheap AP tickets from Nottingham to Kirkham and Wesham with just one change at Manchester Piccadilly. I never understood why I couldn’t get an AP right through to Blackpool North on the same trains. I’ve just had a quick look and I see that Nottingham to Kirkham and Wesham AP tickets are still available.

Getting cheap AP tickets from Nottingham, and even worse from Mansfield to anywhere in the NW changing at Manchester is never easy. I understand it’s even more impossible from stations in Lincolnshire. East to West travel, without splitting, is very expensive and not easy.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Can you say how things will be different once fare setting becomes GBR's responsibility?

The primary fare setting will all take place within GBR, who will also be responsible for ensuring that any fare setting sub-contracted to operators is defined so as to not undermine the overall structure. Politically it will take a while to bring some logic to the overall structure but there should be a fairly early objective to address the worst through-ticketing rebooking anomalies - and in many cases where the flows are non-core the sensible approach will be to eliminate the higher of the conflicting fares.
It's very hard to over-emphasise the degree to which large parts of the fares structure have really had no effective overall control in the franchise structure. Accepting (as the Williams-Shapps report does) that a central body needs to be accountable for revenue is a major step given that the ideology of the 1993 Railways Act was that there would only be light touch overall control and things would somehow magically resolve themselves out.

The constant slating of ATOC/latterly RDG when that function was only ever engineered as an emasculated hub designed only to react to either member operators or DfT shows how the vacuum of leadership has been missed in the commercial sphere.

There's no guarantee anything will change under GBR, though fares might be "simplified".
The "expensive" walk-on fare is probably the old BR fare adjusted for 25 years of inflation, and will be the standard fare.
(There's an off-peak return (SVR) fare after 0900 at £78.40 with railcard which strikes me as reasonable value - £107.80 is the peak fare).
The "cheap" advance fares are mostly products of competition and market segmentation, which are likely to disappear or be more limited in future.
The current availability of cheap advances is seriously impacted by the reservation-only policy of some TOCs during covid, and by social distancing.

There's no guarantee, but there is now a framework for it to be a possibility.
The overall structure has been in the deep freeze for 25 years so is ripe for massive updating. Savings created by one TOC taking chunks out of another can't be sustained but frankly the ludicrous overpricing of many marginal flows won't get the industry past Covid either. Remember that the main driver for pushing fare levels upwards rather than using real market insights to spot elastic markets that generate more revenue with lower fares is the Treasury so prising away day to day management of rail industry commercials from Government whilst leaving it in a publicly accountable body is the only way the current impasse will be broken.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Would the Manchester Picadilly split also work for trips from Town to Preston? (I'm travelling there in August). Also sometimes the return to Doncaster is more than two singles. The fares on the network need re-organising. 2 people of the same train to the same place with one paying more is unfair.

 

[david1212]

A less (or more!) savvy person would see the £107 ticket price and take the car…!

Indeed but noting that the OP quotes £107 with a disabled railcard discount this presumes
- they can drive and have a valid licence
- they have a car and it capable of this long trip

Admittedly by road Google Maps gives the distance at just over 200 miles.
IF the standard off-peak baseline was 18p/mile so 12p/mile with 34% railcard discount the fare would be ~£50 which is close to the split prices the OP quoted.


A much greater proportion of farebox revenue is going to be from discretionary travel. This will only be maximised by fair and consistent pricing. Someone only has to feel ripped off once then this gets all over the press, Facebook etc not just they but others will use the car or not travel.

 

[Envoy]

It’s because the railways are living in the dark ages and have failed get a system up and running that gives reasonable fares from a to b. This only promotes travel by car. An example of how crazy and stuck in the past the railways are is that Cross Country set the fare(s) from south Wales to places north of Crewe via the West Coast Mainline. Travellers would not even use Cross Country as the shortest and quickest route is via The Marches (Hereford) with TfW and then Avanti from Crewe northwards. (If people did use Cross Country from south Wales to say Edinburgh, they would have to change trains in the Midlands and go via Newcastle = a route that is longer by about 1 hour v the westerly route).

 

[Haywain]

If people did use Cross Country from south Wales to say Edinburgh, they would have to change trains in the Midlands and go via Newcastle

Wouldn’t they just do it with a change at Bristol Parkway?

 

[Envoy]

Wouldn’t they just do it with a change at Bristol Parkway?

You can’t get from Cardiff Central to BPW via Cross Country - unless you use the 1 XC train per day - which goes the long way into Temple Meads and then reverses out to go north via BPW. This train actually goes to Manchester via a much longer route than the direct TfW trains using the Marches. So, I said that to use Cross Country from Cardiff to Edinburgh you would change in the Midlands because you would use the Cardiff to Nottingham XC trains for the southern leg.

 

[ainsworth74]

It’s bizarre that there are fares for that journey, routed EMR & TPE only, when neither of the TOCs serve Blackpool North or any of the other stations in that fare cluster.

I hadn't even thought of that but yes that just makes it more bizarre!

Interestingly, I could often get very cheap AP tickets from Nottingham to Kirkham and Wesham with just one change at Manchester Piccadilly. I never understood why I couldn’t get an AP right through to Blackpool North on the same trains. I’ve just had a quick look and I see that

For some reason it appears that this journey is set up correctly as there are EMR & Connections APs available for it. So the journey planners can offer the tickets for sale as that matches the journey they'll be trying to sell! Bizarre!

Would the Manchester Picadilly split also work for trips from Town to Preston? (I'm travelling there in August). Also sometimes the return to Doncaster is more than two singles.

Maybe, maybe not. There are TPE Only APs for sale on this journey so as long as you travel at times when the journey is possible on TPE (which shouldn't be too hard) you'll be able to get a through AP that will likely work out cheaper than splitting (no guarantee of course though!).

 

[roversfan2001]

It’s bizarre that there are fares for that journey, routed EMR & TPE only, when neither of the TOCs serve Blackpool North or any of the other stations in that fare cluster.

That’ll be a hangover from when TPE did serve Blackpool. You’d think that someone would have noticed in the intervening five years though.

 

[317 forever]

That’ll be a hangover from when TPE did serve Blackpool. You’d think that someone would have noticed in the intervening five years though.

Not all changes of TOC are reflected in new tickets issued. I got an Advance from Heaton Chapel to Carlisle in June changing at Preston. Anyway, the 2nd coupon gave me the seat number from Preston to Carlisle on the 14.41 with VIRGIN TRAINS !!!!!

 

[_toommm_]

Not all changes of TOC are reflected in new tickets issued. I got an Advance from Heaton Chapel to Carlisle in June changing at Preston. Anyway, the 2nd coupon gave me the seat number from Preston to Carlisle on the 14.41 with VIRGIN TRAINS !!!!!

That’s due to either the retailer of the ticket or the machine where you printed it. I’ve had reservation tickets in the past year for Virgin EC, and London Midland.

 

[yorkie]

A less savvy person would probably just buy the Gy to Work return but as I am well aware that looking at singles and breaking the journey is often cheaper then that's what I have done.

You don't have to be that savvy; all you need to know about is the existence of ticket "splitting" websites, such as Trainsplit

But you are right that if people don't know about such sites (or don't know how to do the research manually) then they wouldn't be able to get a good deal for this journey.

I'm not really saying make things far easier as then tickets would obviously go up but I was just wondering how TOC's justify this.

I object to any simplification unless there is a promise that the current good value fares do NOT go up in price; if I was given such assurances I'd be all for it.

TOCs don't need to justify high fares because there is nothing compelling them to offer cheap fares and at the moment they are being bailed out by huge Government subsidies anyway, so there is very little incentive for TOCs right now.

That’s due to either the retailer of the ticket or the machine where you printed it. I’ve had reservation tickets in the past year for Virgin EC, and London Midland.

It'll be down to where it was printed.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Not all changes of TOC are reflected in new tickets issued. I got an Advance from Heaton Chapel to Carlisle in June changing at Preston. Anyway, the 2nd coupon gave me the seat number from Preston to Carlisle on the 14.41 with VIRGIN TRAINS !!!!!

You might be waiting a while for that one!

P.S. Presume that all the one-time Virgin trains liveried rolling stock on the network has now had a makeover?

 

[317 forever]

That’s due to either the retailer of the ticket or the machine where you printed it. I’ve had reservation tickets in the past year for Virgin EC, and London Midland.

That makes sense. I guess not every TOC will make such updates at every station when there is a change on any other TOC.

 

[Haywain]

That makes sense. I guess not every TOC will make such updates at every station when there is a change on any other TOC.

When these things happen we try to get them corrected but it can be a difficult process picking them up in dribs and drabs. It’s a painful process.