Wifi on trains?

[infobleep]

Well I thought I'd use the Cross Country Trains WiFi. I can claim it back as it's a business trip.

So it asks for ones address so I decide to give the work one. Then I go to pay. Suddenly the work address is showing and I can't change it. You'd think they'd have made it clear that they want your billing address.

The stupid thing is you can out in a different card holders name to the one on the previous page. If you can't change the address, why would you want to do that unless the person who wants the marketing is different to the person paying but they live at the same address perhaps? Answers via a reply here using WiFi.

Cue start again and it's £8 for 24 hours of this privilege. Not that I'll be on the train for 24 hours but their minutes bundle only starts for 12 hours or more.

It had better be good, given work are paying £8.

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According to Network Rail there is pay as you go WiFi provided by the cloud at Birmingham New Street. Thr Cloud say connect for free. According to a council press release they are joining forces with Virgin Media to provide free WiFi in select parts of the city. I assume that took place as the press release is from 2013,*onky 3 years ago but who knows.

I guess I'll find out when I arrive.

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So I get the access code and try to enter it. Turns out its per device. So if I wish to use three devices in 24 hours that's £24! You'd think they might have a higher rate that allows multiple devices rather than a blanket pay once for each.

Rubbish. You'd think they'd have a WiFi that allows multiple devices. Good job I didn't use my mobile, as I originally intended. There was no warning I could say to say it was per device but it will Ave been in the terms and conditions I'm sure.

To think they will go from all of this to being free. I bet they wouldn't do that unless the Government forced them to do it.

As for the WiFi speed. It's not great. I wouldn't pay £8 myself and might even think twice if I was travelling for business next time.

Update. The WiFi is shocking consisring the cost is £8. I don't know if it's a one off issue or an on going on.

I'm using Citrix to remote into a virtual Windows 8.1 computer and it keeps freezing every so often.

Assuming this isn't a one off, you'd think they could use the £8 per 24 hours to improve the service in some way. When South West Trains WiFi was working, it was great. Much better than this and it was free! I am expecting that to improve again. Not sure if Cross Country trains would bother, given they charge for this and can't be bothered to provide a good service now. If it's a one off then fair enough.

Yes my O2 mobile might be worse right now but I'm paying for a months usage on that so I'll eventually hit somewhere that is good. On Cross Country I can't go anywhere else other than to Birmingham and back as that's what my train tickets say and my allowance is for 24 hours. I might complain and see if they offer a refund.

I've given up what I'm trying to do as it's too painfully slow and I loss concentration whilst waiting for it to catch up. I has thought about changing trains at Leamington Spa and trying Chiltern Railways service but the WiFi took so long to connect that u went away and forgot to check what it said before we reached Leamington Spa. After that point I decided I'd check the services anyway, it's took about 15 minutes to provide the two web pages of text and my little if no graphics. Nor did I get an error message in that time so it really was trying to load it! Eventually it lost the Citrix connection too! It eventually came back at the point where my O2 reception return. Quality service for £8. :roll:

Definitely seeking a refund.

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[jon0844]

The Cloud and O2 Wi-Fi are generally very good now (likely because they offer 5GHz Wi-Fi which is less prone to problems), and both offer free access. If you use the relevant app, you will also auto login each time which is good - and arguably better than many other Wi-Fi services.

The fees for the train are mad. I know Cross Country trains cover a long distance, but nobody is going to be on a train for 24 hours! And while a device limit stops you sharing the password with the entire train, you'd surely have a limit of 2 or 3 devices. At the VERY least two - phone and laptop.

The fact that Wi-Fi is going to be so variable (not the local connection, but the mobile data element) that's another reason not to be charging so much. Until there's an improved ground based network of sites to feed trains, it just isn't going to be reliable on many rural routes.

And, as I've said, by then you'll probably have far superior 4G coverage to use yourself. The only issue being if you can get a good signal inside modern trains.

I have to wonder actually, do the new 700s and 800s have the solar reflecting film that affects mobile signal? It's one thing I've not really checked, and I have generally found the signal quite good on the 700s (maybe on account of large windows) so maybe we're not all doomed in the future on all but a selected bunch of rolling stock.

 

[infobleep]

Does XC's poor WiFi fall foul of the new consumer act?

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On journey home, 31 minutes after leaving Birmingham New Street, I'd still not been able to open an email on my laptop from the GMail site. For data protection reasons, we can't use IMAP. The email contained no attachments, just text!

There may have been a window of opportunity earlier than that but I realise too late that the WiFi had improved. They really need some kind of alert system to tell you when the WiFi has improved so you can get onto it straight away beret you lose it again.

I was able to get the GMail Web Page open a couple of times but I couldn't get the message to load, it would just error after a time. Perhaps Google timing out. If so perhaps Cross Country need to petition Google to increase the time out allowances. Anything but fix the WiFi problem of course!

Finally 34 minutes into my journey I got the e-mail open! Wow. Amazing. Being able to open an e-mail whilst on the move. Revolutionary. What a quality 24 service for £8.00!

A man came round saying any rubbish. I felt like responding, yes the on train WiFi but I'm too polite for that! It's not his fault that Cross Country decided to change for such a poor service though.

Overall on my journey back I lost my access code connection twice and had to input the code again.

The only thing that seems to work is the countdown timer going down for my remaining time on Cross Country Trains WiFi. Needless to say I was able to sign up OK. How come that works OK? I guess they want the money but don't wish to provide a service. :roll:

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[infobleep]

Well I constructed Nomad and they refunded my XC journey as they could see the service wasn't good enough. Well done to them for doing that. I'd rather have had the working WiFi throughout my two journeys but a refund is the next best thing.

Tonight I travelled on the 18.27 from Clapham Junction, as I felt my chances of getting WiFi on it might be higher than on the 18.33 service, even though the train is always really packed.

The train was insded packed. Whilst it took 4 attempts to connect, none of which were quick, I did eventually get connected, despite the train being ramed. Not as rammed as a tube train or 8.39 Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes train cam be but rammed for a mainine fast train and certainly far more rammed than that train Jeremy Corbyn took. Lol.

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[HowardGWR]

A report in the Guardian today:

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...twork-fast-cheap-wi-fi-trains-internet-access

Government promise of fast, cheap Wi-Fi on trains goes off the rails
Despite pre-election pledge, standard specification is only one megabit a second with many firms failing to offer free access

However, I just don't understand the claim that business people need to download videos. What's that about and what has it to do with work?

 

[jon0844]

EE turns on its 800MHz 4G network Wednesday this week. Anyone with a compatible phone (like an iPhone 6 and above) may well see some big improvements.

I really don't think people will need WiFi if they want to stream video, and WiFi on a train is unlikely to ever be able to offer streaming to potentially 1000+ people on a train.

 

[QueensCurve]

I seem to recall a government announcement from 2014 about wifi on trains, referred to in this URL: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-28198237

The Grauniad has reported that standard specification is only one megabit per second with many firms failing to offer free access.

 

[infobleep]

A report in the Guardian today:

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...twork-fast-cheap-wi-fi-trains-internet-access


However, I just don't understand the claim that business people need to download videos. What's that about and what has it to do with work?

Downloading videos shouldn't be a need I'd have thought.

However being able to log onto a remote computer system, perhaps using Virtual Private Network connection or Citrix connection or similar should be and currently the WiFi speeds can be too poor to allow this. Thus one can't do any work.

For a time WiFi on Great Western Railways was good on the North Downs Line but then it went down hill. They never claimed it had reached that line yet and I believe that they are still claiming that to be the case.

I have no idea when they plan to confirm it as working on that line. Maybe 2020. It's only 4 years away.

Also when it didn't work, I'd end up on what appeared to be a spam website when I put in their WiFi web address. Not professional and for all I know dangerous if I clicked on any of the links on the web page. I didn't of course.

Doea this mean WiFi will be retrofitted to 455/456s?

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[WatcherZero]

One megabit per second per passenger with minimum increasing by 25% per year.

If you have a train with a capacity of 300 and 30 people are using the Wi-Fi at once that's 10 megabits each, or better than what I get at home.

 

[johnnychips]

One megabit per second per passenger with minimum increasing by 25% per year.

If you have a train with a capacity of 300 and 30 people are using the Wi-Fi at once that's 10 megabits each, or better than what I get at home.

If you had a full train and people had to pay, I think 30 paying customers would be optimistic. However, if it were free I suspect a lot more than 30 would try it out!

 

[northwichcat]

I noticed on Metrolink in Manchester city centre they had superfast wi-fi mid-morning when the system was fairly quiet but by this afternoon when it was busier the wi-fi was running at a snail's pace.

 

[dgl]

The problem with wifi on trains is the link from the train to the rest of the internet which needs to be sufficiently fast to allow a high number of users to use the system.

Remember if every passenger on a train with the capacity of 300 people wanted to use the wifi and every passenger got 1mbit/s that means that the uplink needs to be at atleast 300mbit/s, getting a connection that fast and at high speeds over a wireless connection which may need to spand for a couple of miles between base stations is still quite difficult and if there is no 3/4g signal in the area then you get nowt.

I think people need to be realistic with what is actually going to be available from on train wifi and understand the limits of technology. A person that is just walking down the road with there device being the only one connected to that wireless link is going to get far better speeds/connection that 100 or so people using the same amount of bandwith at 100mph+.
Whilst a lot can be done with using lower frequencies for data transmission as it has some better trasmission properties than higher frequency signals (travels better through objects, travels further for the same amount of power Etc.) it effectively reduces the amount of bandwith that is available as there is less space between the frequency allocations at the lower frequencies and as such you still are met with the capacity problems.

Lastly despite the fact that even lower frequencies might be made available if they can fit all the TV transmitters into the band IV spectrum (which with an increasing number of multiplexes being transmitted by the main stations seems unlikely) it still really is a sticking plaster until better technology comes along that can utilise the unused higher frequency spectrums easier than it is currently.

 

[HowardGWR]

Could there not be a way of preventing pax from using streaming and so on, to ensure everyone gets a fair crack of the whip to do the stuff it's intended to be done on the wifi?

 

[infobleep]

The problem with wifi on trains is the link from the train to the rest of the internet which needs to be sufficiently fast to allow a high number of users to use the system.

Remember if every passenger on a train with the capacity of 300 people wanted to use the wifi and every passenger got 1mbit/s that means that the uplink needs to be at atleast 300mbit/s, getting a connection that fast and at high speeds over a wireless connection which may need to spand for a couple of miles between base stations is still quite difficult and if there is no 3/4g signal in the area then you get nowt.

I think people need to be realistic with what is actually going to be available from on train wifi and understand the limits of technology. A person that is just walking down the road with there device being the only one connected to that wireless link is going to get far better speeds/connection that 100 or so people using the same amount of bandwith at 100mph+.
Whilst a lot can be done with using lower frequencies for data transmission as it has some better trasmission properties than higher frequency signals (travels better through objects, travels further for the same amount of power Etc.) it effectively reduces the amount of bandwith that is available as there is less space between the frequency allocations at the lower frequencies and as such you still are met with the capacity problems.

Lastly despite the fact that even lower frequencies might be made available if they can fit all the TV transmitters into the band IV spectrum (which with an increasing number of multiplexes being transmitted by the main stations seems unlikely) it still really is a sticking plaster until better technology comes along that can utilise the unused higher frequency spectrums easier than it is currently.

Perhaps the solution is for the passengers to be educated. Most wouldn't know about any of that and some will just moan. But if a campaign of educational in train posters or online social media, explained why things are as they are and what the limitations are, may be people would be more understanding and be prepared for what to expext.

People expect what they get elsewhere because they don't know why it works and why it probably isn't possible to give them what they can get else where.

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[northwichcat]

Could there not be a way of preventing pax from using streaming and so on, to ensure everyone gets a fair crack of the whip to do the stuff it's intended to be done on the wifi?

Some public wi-fi systems block accessing the internet except through a browser. However, it then means you can't use the email app to check your email.

 

[jon0844]

I am quite glad that my Android phone now automatically uses a VPN on some public sites, which it can connect to automatically (not sure how the establishment gets set up with Google [and doesn't Apple have similar?] for this so you skip the registration process), but I really do prefer my own data connection.

EE has this week turned on 700 new 4G 800 sites, which anyone with a pay monthly account and a compatible phone will be able to use by December 1st (it's a staged activation for customers) and it adds a further 2% of geographic coverage straight away. By the end of 2017, there will be 2300 more sites activated - and that's in addition to the normal 1800/2600 4G activations.

As I've said before, in the not too distant future, you'd be mad not to just use your own 4G connection, even if you may need to consider your data allowance if doing things like streaming or screen sharing etc.

 

[miami]

Some public wi-fi systems block accessing the internet except through a browser. However, it then means you can't use the email app to check your email.

Yes, rather stupid systems given that videos (streaming or downloading) will inevitably come in over http/s, where someone on an ssh connection is unlikely to be using a great deal of bandwidth. I suspect they use traffic shaping already.

I used VTWC wifi from Glasgow yesterday, attempting to diagnose a problem with streaming video from Istanbul to Singapore. The bandwidth was fine, the outages weren't (if I'd been at home I'd have fired the rtp stream at my own IP and natted it through to VLC, but that isn't really feasible on publicly provided circuits).

Until the phone companies can drop in the masts along the lines. I'd hope very much HS2 comes with full phone signals on all carriers, negating the need for wifi.

 

[johntea]

I don't mind using my 3G / 4G data connection on a train but there is a HUGE difference in the signal I get on say Northern compared to CrossCountry!

For example Leeds to Sheffield I can barely use t'internet on XC but if I take the slightly longer Northern train I can use it pretty much the entire way there

 

[jon0844]

I don't mind using my 3G / 4G data connection on a train but there is a HUGE difference in the signal I get on say Northern compared to CrossCountry!

For example Leeds to Sheffield I can barely use t'internet on XC but if I take the slightly longer Northern train I can use it pretty much the entire way there

Solar reflecting film on the glass does seem to be a nightmare. Does anyone know if the new Desiro City trains have this film? I seem to get a good signal, bar the usual issues on the BML where there are many not-spots (well, maybe 2G but for data that's useless!).

 

[infobleep]

I am quite glad that my Android phone now automatically uses a VPN on some public sites, which it can connect to automatically (not sure how the establishment gets set up with Google [and doesn't Apple have similar?] for this so you skip the registration process), but I really do prefer my own data connection.

EE has this week turned on 700 new 4G 800 sites, which anyone with a pay monthly account and a compatible phone will be able to use by December 1st (it's a staged activation for customers) and it adds a further 2% of geographic coverage straight away. By the end of 2017, there will be 2300 more sites activated - and that's in addition to the normal 1800/2600 4G activations.

As I've said before, in the not too distant future, you'd be mad not to just use your own 4G connection, even if you may need to consider your data allowance if doing things like streaming or screen sharing etc.

That may depend on which mobike phone provider one is with. It would be interesting to test the others out but I wouldn't want to pay for the privilege of doing so, only find they are just as good as what I already have. I have O2.

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[northwichcat]

As I've said before, in the not too distant future, you'd be mad not to just use your own 4G connection, even if you may need to consider your data allowance if doing things like streaming or screen sharing etc.

For foreign visitors using on board wi-fi can save them a fortune. Also they can use USB charging points without the need for an international adaptor.

 

[jon0844]

For foreign visitors using on board wi-fi can save them a fortune. Also they can use USB charging points without the need for an international adaptor.

USB charging points are great, but for roaming I use mobile data. On Three I have (throttled) data for free in many places, while on Vodafone I get my full 20GB allowance for £3/5 a day, or 500MB a day for £3 on EE.

Frankly, when roaming I rarely, if ever, bother with looking for Wi-Fi and all the hassle of registration, and the possible security risks (but using a VPN solves that, yet I bet most people travelling don't bother with them, or appreciate the risks).

 

[infobleep]

USB charging points are great, but for roaming I use mobile data. On Three I have (throttled) data for free in many places, while on Vodafone I get my full 20GB allowance for £3/5 a day, or 500MB a day for £3 on EE.

Frankly, when roaming I rarely, if ever, bother with looking for Wi-Fi and all the hassle of registration, and the possible security risks (but using a VPN solves that, yet I bet most people travelling don't bother with them, or appreciate the risks).

I don't wish to pay extra to room aboard if I can help it. So I do make use of free WiFi.

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[northwichcat]

USB charging points are great, but for roaming I use mobile data. On Three I have (throttled) data for free in many places, while on Vodafone I get my full 20GB allowance for £3/5 a day, or 500MB a day for £3 on EE.

Prices quite often vary according to what country you are in. You mention Vodafone - I was on that network when I went to Canada and the text I got when I arrived said as I was in the Rest of the World zone data would cost £3/MB for the first 5MB a day then £15 for each additional 5MB hock:

Yet for around £60 I got a train ticket for Montreal to Toronto which included wi-fi and streaming tv programs from their on board server, a meal plus refreshments and use of the station lounge facility which also had refreshments and wi-fi plus complimentary newspapers.

So which would you prefer 20MB of mobile data or the ViaRail offering?

 

[jon0844]

I don't wish to pay extra to room aboard if I can help it. So I do make use of free WiFi.

Most new tariffs include data for roaming, albeit usually just Europe. Some offer roaming in US, Australia, Hong Kong and other places too.

I do use Wi-Fi and sometimes it's a must, like indoors, but Wi-Fi is seldom anywhere near as quick and increasingly places throttle services or now like to offer a very slow speed for free and ask you to pay for faster speeds.

The other thing I dislike are those that make you sign up to something, or have to post on social media (some of those that give free access when you connect via Facebook or Twitter).

 

[dcsprior]

Could there not be a way of preventing pax from using streaming and so on, to ensure everyone gets a fair crack of the whip to do the stuff it's intended to be done on the wifi?

Some public wi-fi systems block accessing the internet except through a browser. However, it then means you can't use the email app to check your email.

Someone streaming video is likely using a lot of bandwidth, but there's a lot of other ways to do that too - so surely if any blocking/throttling is to be done, the fairest way to target it is based on an individual's usage rather than what the content was.

 

[johntea]

Roaming has come on a long way in recent years, I used to be with Three until recently and I made use of their £15 x minutes / x texts / unlimited (not any more it isn't!) data add on SIM deal in the UK

Travelled to Orlando and...my phone worked exactly the same as it would in the UK, including calling home and browsing the web not a single extra charge it just hooked up to AT&T when we touched down and that was that for the rest of the holiday!

I think even planes themselves are now starting to offer a limited WiFi service!

 

[northwichcat]

Roaming has come on a long way in recent years, I used to be with Three until recently and I made use of their £15 x minutes / x texts / unlimited (not any more it isn't!) data add on SIM deal in the UK

Travelled to Orlando and...my phone worked exactly the same as it would in the UK, including calling home and browsing the web not a single extra charge it just hooked up to AT&T when we touched down and that was that for the rest of the holiday!

I think even planes themselves are now starting to offer a limited WiFi service!

A lot depends what sort of contract you have. Three offer some relatively cheap packages where using your phone as a hot spot is not permitted - so if you want to use a tablet/laptop on the phone tethering to your phone is not permitted. They also offer some more expensive deals where using your phone as a hot spot is permitted but even if you have an unlimited package the amount of data you are permitted to use while tethering is limited.

Piggy back networks like Virgin mobile tend to not permit using your phone as a hot spot at all or if they do then they don't offer 4G.

 

[jon0844]

I think all Three plans allow tethering, except perhaps PAYG. Allowances of up to 30GB a month, but nothing when roaming unless on a mobile broadband plan. For other networks, your roaming data can be tethered just fine - as I did with Vodafone in Germany last month (200Mbps over 4G put my crappy hotel Wi-Fi to shame).

Edit: perhaps the new essentials plans on Three don't, but you have the choice.

 

[northwichcat]

Edit: perhaps the new essentials plans on Three don't, but you have the choice.

That was I was meaning the 'essentials' plans prohibit it and it's only allowed on the 'advanced' plans, while even if you get the advanced plan with unlimited data there is a limit on how much you are allowed to use while tethering.