Wigan Wallgate ticket gates & plans to merge Wallgate & North Western stations

[trainophile]

Mods' note: Split from Manchester Piccadilly to get ticket gates

I don't think Northern have any commitment in terms of ticket barriers at Manchester Piccadilly. From the Franchise Agreement:



Sorry I don't know how to paste the table as a table but the stations are:

Liverpool Lime Street
Salford Crescent
Wigan Wallgate
Blackburn
Bolton
Bradford Forster Square
Halifax
Harrogate

No mention of Piccadilly.

Let's hope the Wigan Wallgate barrier is programmed correctly to permit through journey connections via Wigan North Western.

 

[Gathursty]

...but the stations are:

Liverpool Lime Street
Salford Crescent
Wigan Wallgate
Blackburn
Bolton
Bradford Forster Square
Halifax
Harrogate

I'd be interested to see where the barriers will fit in Wallgate or if Wallgate will be redeigned as it's an enclosed space IMHO.

I've recently seen Piccadilly and am impressed with the look of these modern barriers. I just hope they can handle all the myriad tickets that can be used in and through the area.

 

[BurtonM]

Barriers at Wallgate? There's about enough space for 2 in/2 out, akin to a Leslie Green tube station.
I imagine a big glass box will consume the canopy outside like at some other stations.

 

[WatcherZero]

The last administration at Northern considered but rejected barriers over space issues when they refurbished the ticket office two years ago, no idea what solution they have come up with but they are currently refurbishing the station exterior.

In the long term we are still likely to see a rebuilt north western and single entrance to the two.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not quite sure how you'd manage a single entrance - they are quite far apart.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I'm not quite sure how you'd manage a single entrance - they are quite far apart.

Closer than many interchanges on the London Underground, if you were able to plot and measure them. Charing Cross mainline to Northern Line seemed quite a way on Tuesday. Shorter than Waterloo to Waterloo East I suspect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Closer than many interchanges on the London Underground, if you were able to plot and measure them. Charing Cross mainline to Northern Line seemed quite a way on Tuesday. Shorter than Waterloo to Waterloo East I suspect.

Indeed (certainly closer than Bank and Monument), but once you're underground it's easier. The two stations have quite a lot in between them that would get in the way, and tunneling in the Wigan area might not be simple as there will be all sorts of coal related stuff knocking around. You could put up a bridge, but it would be a total waste of money.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Indeed (certainly closer than Bank and Monument), but once you're underground it's easier. The two stations have quite a lot in between them that would get in the way, and tunneling in the Wigan area might not be simple as there will be all sorts of coal related stuff knocking around. You could put up a bridge, but it would be a total waste of money.

I'm not advocating rebuilding either station, nor suggesting that there is much interchange between the lines, nor that the money would ever be available or a wise investment but, as an academic exercise:
Relocate the platforms at Wigan Wallgate (station) to the other side of Wallgate (the street);
Build a new station building where the zebra crossing markings are by the multi-storey rail car park;
Enter the new station building from Wallgate (the street), turn left for Wallgate (station) or right for North-Western.

If Wallgate needs rebuilding anyway for electrification purposes (low bridge clearances), station immediately adjacent, then rebuilding on a new site may be the easier option?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Installing an overhead third rail under the bridge would probably be easier than rebuilding it, as it's full of shops etc.

 

[PR1Berske]

Closer than many interchanges on the London Underground, if you were able to plot and measure them. Charing Cross mainline to Northern Line seemed quite a way on Tuesday. Shorter than Waterloo to Waterloo East I suspect.

Close but not close enough to make any rebuilding or reconstruction cheap. That's a fair busy road between the two, with plenty of buses, and Wallgate is "set back" from the road.

My mind's eye image of the ticket office can't quite imagine fitting ticket barriers into Wallgate with the existing ticket machine etc in place. Would the barriers be far enough from the steps to be safe during busy periods *as well as* close enough to the ticket office to be convenient?

 

[WatcherZero]

The whole western side of the street and buildings along it as well as Wallgate station is on a bridge which isn't in amazing shape, steel props have had to be installed under the arches because of cracking. North Western has platforms above it on a viaduct while Wallgate they are below it in a cutting under the bridge. There is a two storey height difference between the platforms and approx. 50-60m distance.

Merging the stations and relocating the Wallgate platforms has been subject to engineering studies commissioned by both the Council (2004 and recently) and Virgin (2002). This has also studied options including moving the central bus station to the North Western station forecourt and rebuilding it to a high level with buses underneath ala Man Pic, having two central bus stations split between station and current site (which is currently being done) and pedestrianizing the street and having car access to the upper level of a multistorey via a bridge over the ring road from the gas works site.

I understand that some form of rebuild and integration of Wallgate and North Western will be one of the flagship schemes if TfGM gets rail station devolution.

Edit: Attached some diagrams of the previous proposals
2002 Virgin engineering study which had a rebuild of North Western focusing on retail/office space. Moved the platforms.
2004 Council This had a rebuild of North Western connected by skybridge to office development across the road and a canopy covering the whole street between the two stations. The multi-storey upper deck and sole car access would have been via a bridge originating near the gas works while the forecourt would have become dedicated bus station. A multi-storey car park was built by Virgin in the same spot in 2009.
2008 The rather lacklustre Council proposal just to have a covered walkway between the two stations, a pavement canopy. This eventually was implemented as merely a set of rather **** embedded lights in the pavement to light the way between the two stations.

 

[notlob.divad]

Surely the merging of the stations (if it ever happens) is a long term project that is most likely to happen if/when the line to Southport is electrified, which is not going to be anytime soon.

In the mean time, according to the franchise agreement, Wigan Wallgate was to have 5 ticket barriers (and Liverpool Lime Street 9) installed by end of September 2016, so I guess work will be starting pretty soon on them.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Close but not close enough to make any rebuilding or reconstruction cheap. That's a fair busy road between the two, with plenty of buses, and Wallgate is "set back" from the road.

My mind's eye image of the ticket office can't quite imagine fitting ticket barriers into Wallgate with the existing ticket machine etc in place. Would the barriers be far enough from the steps to be safe during busy periods *as well as* close enough to the ticket office to be convenient?

Have you seen how close the barriers are to the steps at Stoke? The other week, a queue of non-ticket holders (alighting on platform 2) stretched from the subway, up the steps, across the entrance from platform 1, to the man with the ticket machine on the opposite side. Result, people arriving at platform 1 had to push through the line of ticket purchasers. Eventually, but not quickly enough, the barriers were all released and people instructed to go to the ticket office to buy their tickets (or perhaps a return with the wrong OUT/RTN portions from the self-service machines).

 

[QueensCurve]

In the long term we are still likely to see a rebuilt north western and single entrance to the two.

A very sensible proposal, but the multi-story carpark seems to have been erected on some of the land that a combined station might occupy.

On another thread someone forecfully told me there would a a problem with compliance with standards for gradient and curvature of platforms if the wallgate platforms were relocated on the other side of the road.

 

[yorksrob]

The idea of rebuilding North Western and Wallgate seems to be a complete waste of money to me. I have interchanged between the two on a few occasions, and frankly it's a lot easier than getting from one extreme of Leeds City station to the other.

TfGM would be better saving the money for something that would actually improve transport opportunities, for example some trains to run better evening services out of Victoria.

 

[rebmcr]

Installing an overhead third rail under the bridge would probably be easier than rebuilding it, as it's full of shops etc.

Rigid conductor rails don't provide any additional clearance; only maintenance benefits.

 

[47271]

OT, sorry, but just while we've got the attention of all Wiganistas.

I changed trains at North Western the other day and the previously scuzzy waiting room on Platform 4 seemed to be in the process of being heavily made over, or even converted into a First Class lounge? It appeared to have a reception desk, a work bench with power points and brand new seats. Does anyone know if this is meant to be a lounge or just an unusually posh waiting room?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

As has been said the relocation of Wallgate's platforms to the other side of the road is a non-starter: the curve and gradient there are outside of current standards for new platform construction. Although it's worth adding that the Virgin car-park is not in itself a hindrance to any development as it is a prefabricated construction which could be dismantled if necessary.

I've always thought that the best way of barriering Wallgate would involve relocating the platform building nearer the bay platform buffer stop thereby creating a much larger area at the foot of the stairs combined with a (glass?) partition along the edge of the down platform allowing users of the lift to be funneled into said space. This space ought to be large enough for a reasonable number of gates though the alignment would probably need to be curved or diagonal to the platform edges. It would also lead to train stopping points being a little further away from the stairs. Of course such a scheme would cost more than the funds likely to be available so doubtless what we end up with will generate plenty of grumbles on here!

 

[PR1Berske]

In general terms, is Wallgate perhaps one of the most peculiarly laid out stations on the network? Thinking about it, the whole building and layout is a bit odd..

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

In general terms, is Wallgate perhaps one of the most peculiarly laid out stations on the network? Thinking about it, the whole building and layout is a bit odd..

Not really. It's much like very many Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway built stations with island platforms being very much in favour. The only thing odd about Wallgate is the bay platform but I suspect that Blackburn would have been similar prior to its rebuild (I don't remember how it used to look apart from the roof looking extremely tatty).

 

[WatcherZero]

OT, sorry, but just while we've got the attention of all Wiganistas.

I changed trains at North Western the other day and the previously scuzzy waiting room on Platform 4 seemed to be in the process of being heavily made over, or even converted into a First Class lounge? It appeared to have a reception desk, a work bench with power points and brand new seats. Does anyone know if this is meant to be a lounge or just an unusually posh waiting room?

Both waiting rooms have had a fresh lick and some renewed wiring, dont think they are becoming lounges.

Wallgate is the standard victorian design just with 50's? platform facilities added. It wasnt really designed with the capacity for millions of annual users. Most of the stations on the Atherton line are to an identical but smaller design, though a couple used to have two island platforms.

 

[mwmbwls]

I have always felt that the flaw in earlier plans for rebuilding Wigan stemmed from the fact that there was (a) no step free access from the platforms at Wallgate and North Western and that (b) it involved crossing a busy road in the rain - (The prevailing climate beloved by Pie-eaters). I have always hankered after a Liverpool South Parkway Solution with a high level connection. Given the dilapidation of Wallgatestreet bridge and the buildings above the L&Y line - a grand clear out is called for on the streets southern side and a revamped retail development with an inherent upper floor transit corridor is called for. Surely Network Rail have to be the ultimate leaseholder of the property/ies over the bridge anyway?

 

[PR1Berske]

Not really. It's much like very many Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway built stations with island platforms being very much in favour. The only thing odd about Wallgate is the bay platform but I suspect that Blackburn would have been similar prior to its rebuild (I don't remember how it used to look apart from the roof looking extremely tatty).

Thanks

 

[MarkyT]

I have always felt that the flaw in earlier plans for rebuilding Wigan stemmed from the fact that there was (a) no step free access from the platforms at Wallgate and North Western and that (b) it involved crossing a busy road in the rain - (The prevailing climate beloved by Pie-eaters). I have always hankered after a Liverpool South Parkway Solution with a high level connection. Given the dilapidation of Wallgatestreet bridge and the buildings above the L&Y line - a grand clear out is called for on the streets southern side and a revamped retail development with an inherent upper floor transit corridor is called for. Surely Network Rail have to be the ultimate leaseholder of the property/ies over the bridge anyway?

Alternatively and more realistically the street route between the station entrances could be improved to an extent at much lower cost. Improvement to surface finishes, furniture, and signage and lighting could be made, even a canopy built over pavement on one side and some 'shared space' design philosophy employed to widen the pedestrian crossing and calm traffic. Going further perhaps an additional road bridge could be strung across the L&Y line to the East of Wallgate bridge behind the terrace of shops on the bridge (Alan's Bikes etc) to create a new car and taxi access for the NW station and leaving Wallgate itself free of traffic except perhaps buses, which might occupy a single lane through the short connecting section of Wallgate, thus allowing a wider pedestrian pavement.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I think the most interesting of all those eight to barrier will be Blackburn, whose booking office is a couple of windows on the island platform and not on a centralised concourse as per the others. The current system of manual revenue protection consists of standing in the subway checking people on entry and exit from platform 4 (the side platform) and exits only from the island. I believe the same subway is also a through public right of way so short of resiting the booking office back to where it was way back when in the old downstairs concourse and partitioning the subway in half I'm not sure how they'll do it.

OT, sorry, but just while we've got the attention of all Wiganistas.

I changed trains at North Western the other day and the previously scuzzy waiting room on Platform 4 seemed to be in the process of being heavily made over, or even converted into a First Class lounge? It appeared to have a reception desk, a work bench with power points and brand new seats. Does anyone know if this is meant to be a lounge or just an unusually posh waiting room?

The (only) waiting room on Preston has gained two tables with power sockets for passengers to use, so I'm guessing it could be a network-wide VT scheme. The same waiting room has had an info desk in it for the past couple of years, ever since it vacated the relatively new office at the bottom of the ramp to platform 3.

 

[najaB]

...so short of resiting the booking office back to where it was way back when in the old downstairs concourse and partitioning the subway in half I'm not sure how they'll do it.

I imagine it will be barriers at the bottom of the stairs leading up to platform 4 and two sets of barriers to the left and right of the top of the stairs to the island platform leaving the ticket office accessible without passing through the barriers. A bit like the attached.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I imagine it will be barriers at the bottom of the stairs leading up to platform 4 and two sets of barriers to the left and right of the top of the stairs to the island platform leaving the ticket office accessible without passing through the barriers. A bit like the attached.

That did occur to me after I'd posted it! I agree and to be fair that's probably a lot more likely. I do just wish they'd move the booking office back to where it was since it's a lot more convenient for the majority of passengers - it would save all the Preston, Blackpool, Bolton and Manchester passengers the trip up to one platform to come back down and then onto another but I suppose at the time of the rebuild it was inconceivable they'd ever need platform 4 again. Oh well.

 

[Mordac]

The (only) waiting room on Preston has gained two tables with power sockets for passengers to use, so I'm guessing it could be a network-wide VT scheme. The same waiting room has had an info desk in it for the past couple of years, ever since it vacated the relatively new office at the bottom of the ramp to platform 3.

Lancaster has gained that too, so that sounds right.

 

[edwin_m]

Lancaster has gained that too, so that sounds right.

Stockport has something similar.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Amazing that a thread that once was to discuss the matter of barriers has developed into the conjoining of two railway stations that are situated on opposite sides of Wallgate, which has a large number of bus services and through vehicular traffic using it.

Wigan North Western rail services and Wigan Wallgate rail services have absolutely nothing in common.