Will there ever be a new shunter requirement?

[Topgun333]

A quick tot up shows that there are about 80 class 08s and 11 class 09s still operated by various TOCs. I doubt whether all of them have mainline clearance and a good deal are in terrible condition now. Given the breakup of TOC ownership and use of 20s, 37s, 56s etc as yard and super shunters will we ever see a need for a traditional shunter order again?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think Hunslet have developed a prototype which is very similar (from what I've seen in a magazine) in design to four wheel shunters used for many years by the SNCF. However I would be surprised if they get many orders if any at all as the class 08's / 09's appear to be easy to maintain and keep going.

 

[BestWestern]

Been meaning to post about shunters... I read an article in a mag a couple of months back - might well have been Modern Railways - which said DBS were culling their 08/09 fleet. The exact details I don't recall, but it very definitely suggested pretty much the whole lot were going, with just a couple remaining. That doesn't appear to have happened, as I still see them chugging away at Westbury, Didcot etc, and those weren't among the locations mentioned as retaining them. Was it dodgy info?

 

[DarloRich]

there seems to have been a push to do away with shunting engines and use the train engine to shunt yards/sidings but like Bestwesterns says the 08's still seem to be going strong. Can it really be cheaper to use the train engine to shunt?

There was an 08 at Eastleigh rushing about forming up trains the last time i was down there and i think there are 2 at Doncaster

 

[The Crab]

Anyone happen to know the age of the oldest 08?

 

[BestWestern]

there seems to have been a push to do away with shunting engines and use the train engine to shunt yards/sidings but like Bestwesterns says the 08's still seem to be going strong. Can it really be cheaper to use the train engine to shunt?

There was an 08 at Eastleigh rushing about forming up trains the last time i was down there and i think there are 2 at Doncaster

I'd hazard a guess that it'll be more about staffing costs, and using a solitary driver with his loco rather than have both 'sat idle' while a second driver & loco do the shunting. I understand that the mainline drivers to significantly more hands-on stuff with the wagons than used to be the case?!

 

[Jamesb1974]

Been meaning to post about shunters... I read an article in a mag a couple of months back - might well have been Modern Railways - which said DBS were culling their 08/09 fleet. The exact details I don't recall, but it very definitely suggested pretty much the whole lot were going, with just a couple remaining. That doesn't appear to have happened, as I still see them chugging away at Westbury, Didcot etc, and those weren't among the locations mentioned as retaining them. Was it dodgy info?

Was it dodgy info?

No the information was correct. However, the plan, such that it was immediately fell apart for some of the following reasons;

1) DBS have a traction shortage anyway, so taking a mainline loco out of the revenue earning loop to shunt trains in yards had an immediate impact on services.

2) Shunting with a 'big engine' initially meant that you needed two people to man it (an agreement to single crew was reached with the unions just before the 'experiment' was ended). An 08/09 was designed for shunting and to be single crewed. They are low geared (15 mph max speed on an 08, 27.5 mph on an 09), so tootling around at 5mph (yard speed limit) is what they do with ease. For their size and weight they are really strong little engines and can put down more tractive effort than a class 67! (35,000 lbf for an 08 against 32,000 lbf for a 67). They are also easy to work on from the maintenance side (loads of access doors in the body side to get to all the greasy parts). They have clear access from one side of the cab to another (unlike a 60/66 with a control pedestal in the way) good visibility (even running 'nose first' you can lean right out of the cab window due to the position of the seat), dual controls (so they can be driven from either side) and a slow release DSD pedal to allow the driver to cross from one side to another without having to rush. A 'big engine' (60/66/67) can only be driven from one side and only has a DSD holdover button on the secondman's side, so you can keep the DSD from activating, but you can't operate any of the controls. So, if you need to perform a shunt move where you need to see from the second man's side, you are pretty much stuffed.

3) The track in most yards is of low quality and only gets repaired/maintained when needed. 'big engines' put a lot more strain and stress on already knackered track.

There are more reasons, including costs. I think the original idea was to reduce the costs of keeping the shunt engines going, which was eventually circumnavigated by designating those that never go onto the mainline as items of 'plant equipment' and doing away with mainline certification. That reduced the running costs per engine by about 80% straight away!

 

[BestWestern]

Was it dodgy info?

No the information was correct. However, the plan, such that it was immediately fell apart for some of the following reasons;

1) DBS have a traction shortage anyway, so taking a mainline loco out of the revenue earning loop to shunt trains in yards had an immediate impact on services.

2) Shunting with a 'big engine' initially meant that you needed two people to man it (an agreement to single crew was reached with the unions just before the 'experiment' was ended). An 08/09 was designed for shunting. They are low geared (15 mph max speed on an 08, 27.5 mph on an 09), so tootling around at 5mph (yard speed limit) is what they do with ease. For their size and weight they are really strong little engines and can put down more tractive effort than a class 67! (35,000 lbf for an 08 against 32,000 lbf for a 67). They are also easy to work on from the maintenance side (loads of access doors in the body side to get to all the greasy parts). They have clear access from one side of the cab to another (unlike a 60/66 with a control pedestal in the way) good visibility (even running 'nose first' you can lean right out of the cab window due to the position of the seat), dual controls (so they can be driven from either side) and a slow release DSD pedal to allow the driver to cross from one side to another without having to rush. A 'big engine' (60/66/67) can only be driven from one side and only has a DSD holdover button on the secondman's side, so you can keep the DSD from activating, but you can't operate any of the controls. So, if you need to perform a shunt move where you need to see from the second man's side, you are pretty much stuffed.

3) The track in most yards is of low quality and only gets repaired/maintained when needed. 'big engines' put a lot more strain and stress on already knackered track.

There are more reasons, including costs. I think the original idea was to reduce the costs of keeping the shunt engines going, which was eventually circumnavigated by designating those that never go onto the mainline as items of 'plant equipment' and doing away with mainline certification. That reduced the running costs per engine by about 80% straight away!

Excellent post, thank you

 

[DarloRich]

I'd hazard a guess that it'll be more about staffing costs, and using a solitary driver with his loco rather than have both 'sat idle' while a second driver & loco do the shunting. I understand that the mainline drivers to significantly more hands-on stuff with the wagons than used to be the case?!

I agree - I meant cheaper in terms of fuel consumption etc. I just assumed an 08 would burn up less fuel huffling about at slow speed than a big 66/60.

Manpower wise I can see the savings - especially if you can get "multi skilled" site operators who can shunt, brake test, load, unload and operate machinery (BTW hat is the world coming to when a driver has to touch a wagon! )

You do, of course, need to build the time taken shunting or forming the train up into the drivers turn which may have an impact on the roster/mainline driving time. Plus i guess having been on an 08 they are designed for yard work with dual controls etc

I guess the 08’s are on borrowed time
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Was it dodgy info?

No the information was correct. However, the plan, such that it was immediately fell apart for some of the following reasons;

1) DBS have a traction shortage anyway, so taking a mainline loco out of the revenue earning loop to shunt trains in yards had an immediate impact on services.

2) Shunting with a 'big engine' initially meant that you needed two people to man it (an agreement to single crew was reached with the unions just before the 'experiment' was ended). An 08/09 was designed for shunting. They are low geared (15 mph max speed on an 08, 27.5 mph on an 09), so tootling around at 5mph (yard speed limit) is what they do with ease. For their size and weight they are really strong little engines and can put down more tractive effort than a class 67! (35,000 lbf for an 08 against 32,000 lbf for a 67). They are also easy to work on from the maintenance side (loads of access doors in the body side to get to all the greasy parts). They have clear access from one side of the cab to another (unlike a 60/66 with a control pedestal in the way) good visibility (even running 'nose first' you can lean right out of the cab window due to the position of the seat), dual controls (so they can be driven from either side) and a slow release DSD pedal to allow the driver to cross from one side to another without having to rush. A 'big engine' (60/66/67) can only be driven from one side and only has a DSD holdover button on the secondman's side, so you can keep the DSD from activating, but you can't operate any of the controls. So, if you need to perform a shunt move where you need to see from the second man's side, you are pretty much stuffed.

3) The track in most yards is of low quality and only gets repaired/maintained when needed. 'big engines' put a lot more strain and stress on already knackered track.

There are more reasons, including costs. I think the original idea was to reduce the costs of keeping the shunt engines going, which was eventually circumnavigated by designating those that never go onto the mainline as items of 'plant equipment' and doing away with mainline certification. That reduced the running costs per engine by about 80% straight away!

Very good post written by someone who has clearly used them - i didnt like to mention the state of the track in some yards!

 

[garethslee]

Working at a steelworks I see shunters pushing around torpedoes of molten iron etc. I don't what class they are though. Looking through Google images they look a *little* like Class 6. If I grab a shot could someone confirm?

 

[GB]

Probably find they are industrial hunslet type shunters.

 

[garethslee]

Just found a website which has photos of them.
http://www.philt.org.uk/Industrial/PT/

 

[RobShipway]

Just found a website which has photos of them.
http://www.philt.org.uk/Industrial/PT/

I am not expect, but the first 3 -4 photos on the first page of the link above and those on the second page of the blue and yellow loco suggest maybe class 5 type shunter.

I did originally think class 3 type shunter, but there is no chimney at the front.

 

[sprinterguy]

I am not expect, but the first 3 -4 photos on the first page of the link above and those on the second page of the blue and yellow loco suggest maybe class 5 type shunter.

I did originally think class 3 type shunter, but there is no chimney at the front.

They're not really related to any type of BR shunting design registered on TOPS though, as far as I know. There are plenty of types of industrial diesel shunters that have never required a TOPS classification, this being one of them.

 

[theageofthetra]

What is the shunter in the Hitachi side of Ashford depot? It looked in excellent condition when I was there last year. I think it is named after one of the Hitachi Directors?

 

[D365]

What is the shunter in the Hitachi side of Ashford depot? It looked in excellent condition when I was there last year. I think it is named after one of the Hitachi Directors?

Was called 'Sentinel' when it was with Huntslet: http://hunslet.blogspot.com/2012/10/hunslet-engine-company-supplies-shunter.html

 

[scarby]

Anyone happen to know the age of the oldest 08?

You can have a fish through this list:

http://www.railway-centre.com/uploads/7/2/2/3/7223531/class_08-13_fleet_list.pdf

There are many experts out there who know far more than me, but looking at the list, the oldest mainline certified seem to be 08405 and 08410 which entered service in June 1958. But there are many older ones in use without mainline certification.

But I guess definitively it's D3000, the first one built, from October 1952, and which has been preserved.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Before D3000 there were shunters in the 11nnn and 13nnn range iirc - not class numbers as these are pre 1958 number ranges. These shunters looked like what we know as 08s and were probably an earlier design of what became 08s .

So if you go back far enough you can end up in another world ! :-.

I could only find 11001 which does not look as similer as I wanted to show.

I seem to recall the 08 is based on an LMS design.
And I found these that started life in the 13nnn range but are NOT class 13, they became class 10 though I do not think any got numbered beyond the Dnnnn series numbering!.

I recall puzzling over a "Days of Brentford" shunter I saw at the Old Oak Common factory (by the canal) back in the late-70s/early-80s. Wish I could remember what its number was but I recall thinking it was a TOPS number at first e.g. 13123 !.