Will we see motorail return?

[Zontar]

I recently read an old archive about this and someone else mentioned on socials.
With the green agenda and possible changes to railway/govt - do you think it has legs?
Ive even see suggestions of it going on into Europe!

Wishful thinking, but I'd happily get on a sleeper with my car to wake up in Brussels etc.

 

[Hadders]

Absolutely no chance, I'd say. A complete financial basket case, I strongly suspect.

 

[Zontar]

Absolutely no chance, I'd say. A complete financial basket case, I strongly suspect.

My gut feeling too... I suppose it's a 2 prong question...

Will it happen?

Would you like it to happen?

 

[randyrippley]

I can see a case for expanding motorail.......
with the increase in long-distance electrification and increasing sales of electric cars, the railway now has an opportunity to offer a "charge as you sleep" service, or a daytime "charge as you ride". Each car carrier would have a pantograph drawing enough power from the overhead to charge the cars as you ride. Drive to the London terminal, drive onto the car carrier, plug the car in, sit in the train and away you go. Drive off in Scotland fully charged.
Or if you prefer, dispense with the coaches and ride in the cars. They're plugged in, powered so heating and air conditioning would work. Ride to the destination in the ease and luxury of your own car. After all, it's a reversion to old rail history: some of the earliest rail coaches were stagecoaches on rail wagons.
From the point of view of the TOCs, all those expensive long distance carriages could be dispensed with, along with all the in-train staff. You'd just need the modern equivalent of car-tics or similar. Only difficulty would be toilets so ample sized bottles would need to be on sale at the embarking station.

 

[robspaceman]

Motorail was a solution for the pre motorway era. I think we forget just how long it used to take to drive from e.g. London-Cornwall or Scotland before the 1980s. Once the motorway network was completed Motorail was no longer needed.

 

[jfollows]

Motorail was a solution for the pre motorway era. I think we forget just how long it used to take to drive from e.g. London-Cornwall or Scotland before the 1980s. Once the motorway network was completed Motorail was no longer needed.

I think that's the crux of it - I can't remember all the details but I remember driving for a family holiday from Poynton (so 10 miles south of Manchester) to Newquay in 1969 and my recollection is that it took 12 hours, it may have been 10 hours, but it took a heck of a long time.

And this was the time when Motorail was in operation, there was a clear benefit. And, like many things, it carried on past its time for a while, with dwindling numbers of users.

I've never had anything like as slow a journey since then, the motorways are of course crowded but they work. So other than perhaps journeys such as central Manchester to central London, car is often faster than end-to-end rail journeys. I don't expect to be able to drive Manchester-Winchester in something like 2.5 hours again (as I did in the 1990s) for a number of reasons, but I'd have a reasonable expectation of - say - 4 hours.

 

[The Planner]

I don't expect to be able to drive Manchester-Winchester in something like 2.5 hours again (as I did in the 1990s) for a number of reasons, but I'd have a reasonable expectation of - say - 4 hours.

That is 200 miles at a solid average of 80mph.

 

[jfollows]

That is 200 miles at a solid average of 80mph.

Yes it was, on a Saturday morning. In a 5L Mustang GT so the fuel economy at that speed will have been dreadful, in "normal" driving it was something like 22mpg .....

 

[zwk500]

I recently read an old archive about this and someone else mentioned on socials.
With the green agenda and possible changes to railway/govt - do you think it has legs?
Ive even see suggestions of it going on into Europe!

Wishful thinking, but I'd happily get on a sleeper with my car to wake up in Brussels etc.

Distances within the UK simply aren't competitive with the motorway. I think it's possible we could see motorail routes from Calais to Spain or something (lots of UK tourists drive that way so there's a potential market), but the economics of the Tunnel will mean Le Shuttle and then an operation contained to the continent will always win on that front.

 

[PeterC]

Distances within the UK simply aren't competitive with the motorway. I think it's possible we could see motorail routes from Calais to Spain or something (lots of UK tourists drive that way so there's a potential market), but the economics of the Tunnel will mean Le Shuttle and then an operation contained to the continent will always win on that front.

I can see attractions from the user point of view. I would tather load my car up somewhere north of the Thames and drive off in the sun but Calais is a good second best. I doubt if an operator could do it at a competitive price.

There are journeys in GB where I would rather use the train but want a car at my destination. Give me an option to book a rail reservation and have a hire car waiting at the station in one transaction.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'd tend to agree that it has generally had its day due to the motorway and even the general A-road network having both expanded and improved comparing to the situation that pertained in the 1960s, 70s or even 80s. It is now much easier to drive long distances from one end of the country to the other. I think the other consideration is that cars have also become both more reliable and more comfortable in the intervening period as well meaning that its less daunting to undertake long distance journeys in even something of a old banger. I'm pretty confident that I could jump in my 2008 Fiesta tomorrow morning here in Redcar and make it to Penzance without any particular bother that evening. I'd be knackered but I've got no worries about breaking down or more general comfort. So I think that's pretty much killed the majority of routes that are likely to be able to sustain Motorail traffic by the volume of people that are travelling due to the fact that if they want a car at the other end it's just as easy to drive it, likely cheaper too if it's say a family.

That being said I can see a market for very long distance Motorail journeys, longer than we have in the UK. I'm thinking for instance of Amtrak's Auto Train which goes from just outside of Washington DC to Central Florida which around 850 miles. My understanding is that it's one of the few long distance routes that actually covers its operational costs and turns a small profit for Amtrak. But it has the advantage of covering a significant distance and strong flow of traffic to call upon.

So I could see a case for very long distance Motorail services, something like Rome to Berlin for instance just picking an example at random, but on a UK scale I just don't think we have long enough distances with sufficient traffic volumes to justify it. For instance I suspect Penzance to Inverness would be long enough for people to perhaps want to let the train take the strain rather than driving but how many people actually travel between Penzance and Inverness? Not enough to warrant a regular Sleeper (or day train) let alone a Motorail service.

So I think Motorail has a future but I don't think it has one in the UK.

 

[zwk500]

I can see attractions from the user point of view. I would tather load my car up somewhere north of the Thames and drive off in the sun but Calais is a good second best. I doubt if an operator could do it at a competitive price.

I can certainly see the attraction of Motorail to the customer, but the economics of it in the UK really struggle to add up. You need to concentrate the traffic at both ends and that means most people would already be driving, at which point they're going to keep driving if they can. I think a terminal near the current Le Shuttle site which wouldn't need the security and can capture some market from the Ferries as well would probably be viable as they'd then have long runs to southern France, Italy and Spain which are popular with British tourists.

There are journeys in GB where I would rather use the train but want a car at my destination. Give me an option to book a rail reservation and have a hire car waiting at the station in one transaction.

Very much agreed with this.

 

[JamesT]

I can certainly see the attraction of Motorail to the customer, but the economics of it in the UK really struggle to add up. You need to concentrate the traffic at both ends and that means most people would already be driving, at which point they're going to keep driving if they can. I think a terminal near the current Le Shuttle site which wouldn't need the security and can capture some market from the Ferries as well would probably be viable as they'd then have long runs to southern France, Italy and Spain which are popular with British tourists.

Though it's noticeable that the French used to have such a service and have steadily withdrawn all their motorail. Which suggests the economics didn't stack up for them. If it doesn't work for the French with their much longer distances, what chance would a British version?

 

[zwk500]

Though it's noticeable that the French used to have such a service and have steadily withdrawn all their motorail. Which suggests the economics didn't stack up for them. If it doesn't work for the French with their much longer distances, what chance would a British version?

Tbf the French will be largely approaching it with a view to serving the French domestic market, which although longer than the UK is still quite close to competition from the car, and then you'd have the problem of convincing the Parisians to use it rather than drive direct to their preferred campsite. And of course such routes may be viable for a few weeks in the summer, but then what do you do with the stock in the low season?
The motorail routes that have succeeded are either very long indeed (Amtrak), or cross terrain that makes a motorway very difficult to build or keep open (Germany-Italy).

 

[eldomtom2]

That being said I can see a market for very long distance Motorail journeys, longer than we have in the UK. I'm thinking for instance of Amtrak's Auto Train which goes from just outside of Washington DC to Central Florida which around 850 miles. My understanding is that it's one of the few long distance routes that actually covers its operational costs and turns a small profit for Amtrak. But it has the advantage of covering a significant distance and strong flow of traffic to call upon.

But of course even then the reason why Amtrak runs the Auto Train service is because the original company went bust after trying to add a second route from the Midwest to Florida.

 

[30907]

The only dedicated Motorail services (they also carry passengers without vehicles) in Western Europe are UrlaubsExpress Dortmund/Hamburg-Innsbruck/Villach.
These take advantage of a slightly bigger loading gauge, meaning that today's Chelsea Tractors (or their equivalents) can be carried.

OeBB withdrew their remaining Hamburg service as the new NJ sets are too long to allow extra vehicles. They still run Wien/Graz/Villach-Feldkirch all year at marginal cost on subsidised NJs which still have capacity, and Wien-Split on the seasonal ZSSK service from Bratislava.
CD run Prague-Poprad/Kosice and ZSSK Bratislava-Kosice, again at marginal cost on the back of night trains.

 

[mike57]

My view is it would be attractive at the right price, particular if you have an electric vehicle which will not complete the journey without a recharge stop or stops. The problem is I suspect the 'right' price is well below that for a commercial return or even break even.

Even taking the most basic provision, car transporters with people remaining in their cars, how much would it cost to run the train from say London to the Central belt of Scotland, divide that cost by the number of cars. And thats before you have bought rolling stock, locomotives etc, and found space on the already at capacity rail network.

The only way it would happen is if it was government subsidised as part of a wider green agenda, and to be honest if they have that sort of money there are other things that could be done with it that would have more impact in reducing emissions.

So to answer the OP question, very unlikely.

 

[ainsworth74]

But of course even then the reason why Amtrak runs the Auto Train service is because the original company went bust after trying to add a second route from the Midwest to Florida.

Indeed which I suppose shows how limited the opportunities are for Motorail services. If Auto Train had stuck to their original route they might well still be here but clearly Amtrak saw an opportunity on the original route, after giving up on their own Midwestern attempt, and took it after the original Auto Train company went bust. But perhaps it's telling that in the intervening decades Amtrak themselves have never tried (as far as I know?) to expand their own operation beyond that of the original Virginia to Florida service.

That being said it does still turn a profit for Amtrak, basically uniquely amongst their long distance services, indeed it appears to have turned a $15.6m profit in their last complete financial year (see the last page of this pdf, Amtrak's financial year runs from 1 October to 30 September). But the circumstances that allow for that success appear pretty limited to just one narrow corridor.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Companies like Waymo (Google's self-driving car company) are pushing the model of "mobility as a service" - which Wikipedia describes as "a shift away from personally-owned modes of transportation".

In this future, there's no need to spend £££ moving a self-driving car from one part of Britain to another. You just get the train to your destination, and then you pick up a self-driving car there. It's probably exactly the same as the self-driving cars you use at home. You don't own them (why would you?), you either pay per journey or buy a monthly pass.

If that happens, it completely holes any remaining business case for Motorail. Yes, it's some time in the future, and the legacy auto industry appears to still be fixated on personal car ownership (insert quote from the Innovator's Dilemma here). But I can't see anyone investing millions in a service to deliver your car to Fort William when there's an identical car already available for use there.

 

[telstarbox]

Am I right that the original Motorail only operated from station A to station B or did they do intermediate stops like a normal train?

 

[Grumpy]

Am I right that the original Motorail only operated from station A to station B or did they do intermediate stops like a normal train?

Bit of both. I put my car on one at Sheffield for a portion which was shunted onto a York-Newton Abbot train .
Similarly at one time the Kensington-West of England service called at Reading to add a portion.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I can see a case for expanding motorail.......
with the increase in long-distance electrification and increasing sales of electric cars, the railway now has an opportunity to offer a "charge as you sleep" service, or a daytime "charge as you ride". Each car carrier would have a pantograph drawing enough power from the overhead to charge the cars as you ride. Drive to the London terminal, drive onto the car carrier, plug the car in, sit in the train and away you go. Drive off in Scotland fully charged.
Or if you prefer, dispense with the coaches and ride in the cars. They're plugged in, powered so heating and air conditioning would work. Ride to the destination in the ease and luxury of your own car. After all, it's a reversion to old rail history: some of the earliest rail coaches were stagecoaches on rail wagons.
From the point of view of the TOCs, all those expensive long distance carriages could be dispensed with, along with all the in-train staff. You'd just need the modern equivalent of car-tics or similar. Only difficulty would be toilets so ample sized bottles would need to be on sale at the embarking station.

All those cars charging off the catenary at once, along with an electric loco... think of the current draw! Would each coach have its own pantograph to supply the chargers? That would mean a transformer in every coach too.

 

[randyrippley]

All those cars charging off the catenary at once, along with an electric loco... think of the current draw! Would each coach have its own pantograph to supply the chargers? That would mean a transformer in every coach too.

But if people were sat in their own cars, not a coach, then the ETH overhead for the coaches disappears. If you don't fancy the idea of each car carrier having its own pantograph, then current could be drawn from the loco via a powerbus of some kind.

This plan makes even more sense if you realise that soon public pressure is going to drive against the current trend for ever larger SUV-type electric vehicles, with much smaller lesser-range town-cars coming to the fore. They won't have the range for journeys of over ~150-200 miles, so charge-as-you-ride motorail could be quite effective

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely no chance, I'd say. A complete financial basket case, I strongly suspect.

Agree. Associating car-club-style car hire with a rail journey is a much more likely solution to the problem of wanting to go somewhere by rail but needing a car once there (e.g. because it's very rural). Much more efficient as you're not shifting two additional tons of metal around per person or two.

 

[renegademaster]

much smaller lesser-range town-cars coming to the fore.

Are they though? Extra small cars pop up ever 5 years or so most never take off , and the biggest success of the concept (Smart cars) is Toyota Aygo size now. Even 2 doors seem extinct now

 

[randyrippley]

Are they though? Extra small cars pop up ever 5 years or so most never take off , and the biggest success of the concept (Smart cars) is Toyota Aygo size now. Even 2 doors seem extinct now

big cars are unsustainable on so many fronts - cost more to build, use more fuel...........and they need more road to fit them on.
Things will change soon

 

[renegademaster]

big cars are unsustainable on so many fronts - cost more to build, use more fuel...........and they need more road to fit them on.
Things will change soon

The reason to care about big cars gets less and less as cars get more electric and generation becoming steadily more and more renewable. And driver assistance devices are going to make a lot of common pedestrian fatalities a thing of the past

All the scolding from urbanists about SUVs never made an impact on sales or legislation when emissions were substantial and pedestrian safety was a concern. Nobody is going to care when transport is practically emission free and cars stop themselves when a child runs in front of you. The microcar concept fails because the kind of people who it would suit will just buy a moped or ebike for a tenth of the price

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But if people were sat in their own cars, not a coach, then the ETH overhead for the coaches disappears. If you don't fancy the idea of each car carrier having its own pantograph, then current could be drawn from the loco via a powerbus of some kind.

This plan makes even more sense if you realise that soon public pressure is going to drive against the current trend for ever larger SUV-type electric vehicles, with much smaller lesser-range town-cars coming to the fore. They won't have the range for journeys of over ~150-200 miles, so charge-as-you-ride motorail could be quite effective

That wouldn't work either. The cars at the front of the train would suffer battery damage from being overcharged, and the ones at the rear would only be trickle-charging the whole time. The ETS requirements for 30 cars on charge would be immense, far greater than heating or cooling 8-10 passenger saloons.

 

[renegademaster]

The cars at the front of the train would suffer battery damage from being overcharged, and the ones at the rear would only be trickle-charging the whole

That's not how electrical circuits work. You have the same current throughout the circuit no matter how the load is distributed.

 

[HSTEd]

All those cars charging off the catenary at once, along with an electric loco... think of the current draw! Would each coach have its own pantograph to supply the chargers? That would mean a transformer in every coach too.

Well the train likely has a few hours to charge the cars, so each car would only be drawing 30kW or so.
It's not a big draw on a 25kV supply compared to the likely demand of existing traction systems.