Will we see motorail return?

[JonathanH]

Prices from Great Western's attempt to put Motorail on the Friday night Night Riviera in the late 1990s.

https://mancunian1001.wordpress.com/2021/06/13/cars-on-trains-the-wonders-of-motorail/

Revival?

In September 1999, Motorail made a comeback on the Cornish Riviera sleeper service. First Great Western revived the route from London Paddington station to Penzance. This used eight converted General Utility Vans and operated till the end of summer 2006. Its maiden voyage was a success.

First Great Western’s service was available on the Friday night sleeper train in both directions. In 2004, the fares were as follows:

First Class Car and Driver sleeper fares: £132.00 single, £205.00 return;

Standard Class Car and Driver sleeper fares: £98.00 single, £131.00 return;

Standard Class Car and Driver seat fares: £76.00 single, £99.00 return.

Additional passengers travelled at 50% of the most suitable fare for the journey. Where necessary, another £22 for the sleeper supplement.

I imagine it lost money.

Separate related question: is there the infrastructure/rolling stock left in the UK to do a one off (or close to one off) heritage motorail service? Route doesn't have to particularly make sense nor does the pricing have to be "competitive" but should at least be physically and operationally practical.

96603 and 96605 from Great Western's Motorail operation are in use as barrier vehicles for stock moves with RailAdventure HST power cars.

 

[JamesT]

Also - why London ?

Is it not the most natural place for a motor rail train , going to The Continent , to start at Folkestone terminal , with infrastructure being in place and used all the time ?

I am surprised - lorries or trailers are not carried further to the EU on the freight shuttles through The Channel but they terminate in Calais ( may be wrong on that one ).

Unless you're on the right side of London, getting to Folkestone is adding another hour or two to your travel time.

As noted earlier, the shuttles are too big for the rail networks on either side. Given lorries can disperse in many directions, would you get a trainload you could take further?

 

[JKF]

96603 and 96605 from Great Western's Motorail operation are in use as barrier vehicles for stock moves with RailAdventure HST power cars.

Doesn’t Hoskings have something to transport cars on his private train, or am I thinking of someone else? Fairly sure I heard about this.

 

[Egg Centric]

Doubt it, would be surprised if any sort of ramp is left for the road/rail interface at any historic locations.

Doesn't have to be "historic" - just anywhere really.

Doesn’t Hoskings have something to transport cars on his private train, or am I thinking of someone else? Fairly sure I heard about this.

I hope so. What's the point in being a multi millionaire* rail enthusiast if you don't do multi millionaire rail enthusiast things!



*I appreciate being a multi millionaire these days is neither rich nor special but I'm not aware of another term before billionaire which I don't think he is

 

[43096]

Prices from Great Western's attempt to put Motorail on the Friday night Night Riviera in the late 1990s.

https://mancunian1001.wordpress.com/2021/06/13/cars-on-trains-the-wonders-of-motorail/


I imagine it lost money.


96603 and 96605 from Great Western's Motorail operation are in use as barrier vehicles for stock moves with RailAdventure HST power cars.

Of the eight Motorail vans that FGW latterly had, 96602/03/05/07 are with RailAdventure as translators for stock moves, while 96604/06/08/09 are Colas vehicles used as brake force vehicles in infrastructure monitoring trains.

 

[Kingston Dan]

The reason to care about big cars gets less and less as cars get more electric and generation becoming steadily more and more renewable. And driver assistance devices are going to make a lot of common pedestrian fatalities a thing of the past

All the scolding from urbanists about SUVs never made an impact on sales or legislation when emissions were substantial and pedestrian safety was a concern. Nobody is going to care when transport is practically emission free and cars stop themselves when a child runs in front of you. The microcar concept fails because the kind of people who it would suit will just buy a moped or ebike for a tenth of the price

There's plenty of other emissions with electric vehicles - https://www.theguardian.com/environ...road-runoff-outfalls-polluting-england-rivers

 

[Bald Rick]

So time wise , very similar to driving , with advantage of being in bed while getting there , rather than trying to stay awake behind the wheel .

Longer than driving (in my experience). And removes the potential to stop off somewhere en route.

Also - why London ?

Is it not the most natural place for a motor rail train , going to The Continent , to start at Folkestone terminal , with infrastructure being in place and used all the time ?

The infrastructure is designed for the large gauge shuttles, not motorail wagons that could fit on the railways of France and elsewhere in Europe. It’s also, as you say, in use all the time for the shuttles!

am surprised - lorries or trailers are not carried further to the EU on the freight shuttles through The Channel but they terminate in Calais ( may be wrong on that one ).

Because, as explained several times upthread, the tunnel shuttles don’t fit on the continental gauge.

 

[Krokodil]

Valid but valid now but nobody cares apart from fringe activists

Not so fringe - the Mayor of Paris is one powerful example.

yet all the 23 plates in London are big SUVs , I'm not convinced

Normal people don't drive in central London. Only a certain type of person drives a private car there.

I imagine it lost money.

The Night Riviera as a whole lost money anyway. It only started breaking even when they abolished the Plymouth portion.

There's plenty of other emissions with electric vehicles - https://www.theguardian.com/environ...road-runoff-outfalls-polluting-england-rivers

I would imagine that they'd all be dwarfed if you plugged them in to a class 25 ETHEL to charge them.

The only domestic route a motorail service would have even the slightest chance of attracting custom (profit isn't even a consideration here, there's no getting away from the need for a subsidy) is the Highland Sleeper. As that is already maxed out in length - more than maxed out actually, Fort William seated passengers and cyclists have to move coaches at Edinburgh to squeeze the 18 carriages into a 16 car rake - the only way that it would even be possible would be if the Highlander were run as two seperate rakes from Euston. While that in itself would be a good thing as it's often fully-booked, there is simply no money.

 

[renegademaster]

Normal people don't drive in central London. Only a certain type of person drives a private car there.

I'm talking about what I see both in Croydon and inner London (but still residential . "Normal" people certainly drive there .I very rarely actually go into the city nowdays. The future is less people with cars not smaller cars.

the Mayor of Paris is one powerful example.

When Khan's margin declines when labour increase their margin hugely in every other location will spook mayors from implementing any significant restriction on cars for the next decade or so. Even Khan has had to comit that he won't go any further as long as he stays mayor

 

[Krokodil]

I'm talking about what I see both in Croydon and inner London (but still residential . "Normal" people certainly drive there .I very rarely actually go into the city nowdays.

The closer into the centre you go though, the more Range Rovers, Teslas, Porches and other luxury vehicles you see.

The future is less people with cars not smaller cars.

No argument here. Car clubs are spreading, it's becoming easier to hire a car for the one time of year that the Bakewell family of Fulham actually need one. Of note, Shetland now has such a scheme. No doubt Fort William will eventually follow, which will squash what little demand did exist for Motorail.

When Khan's margin declines

Don't count your chickens before they've hatched.

will spook mayors from implementing any significant restriction on cars for the next decade or so

I'm not sure that the Mayor of Paris (or any other European city) is going to take much note of a UK local election.

 

[renegademaster]

I'm not sure that the Mayor of Paris (or any other European city) is going to take much note of a UK local election.

I meant more about the British local government, but we are hardly the only country to have a political backlash to environmental measures.

The closer into the centre you go though, the more Range Rovers, Teslas, Porches and other luxury vehicles you see.

And further out it's MG4s and Nissan Qashquis , smaller cars are very rare nowdays. As cars get more expensive the people who can afford cars will be more likely to have luxury ones, while those who dont will be on the bus or ebikes

 

[class ep-09]

Unless you're on the right side of London, getting to Folkestone is adding another hour or two to your travel time.

If you are driving to southern France or beyond , what difference does it make , how far away from London Folkestone is ?

As noted earlier, the shuttles are too big for the rail networks on either side. Given lorries can disperse in many directions, would you get a trainload you could take further?

I did not day it would be Euro Shuttle stock used beyond Calais, I suggested before dedicated rolling stock that fits European gauge .

There are many examples of lorry / trailer carrying trains on the continent that ferry goods from terminal to a terminal , so why not from Folkestone ( as I said I may be wrong on this one and perhaps such trains , carrying lorries / trailers already exist - I heard about pilot train from China coming to somewhere in East London in the past ).

Longer than driving (in my experience). And removes the potential to stop off somewhere en route.

How do you know , what potential timing of such a train would be ( Folkestone - South of France) ?

And how can you compare driving versus comfort of being driven, while in bed and your car is behind you ?

There are many people “made for comfort not for speed”.
As long as such motor rail was leaving Folkestone in the late afternoon or early evening and arriving before midday to the south of France, I am for it .

Price is secondary consideration because as I said it costs at least £500 to get there if driving ( if staying in a hotel overnight and using tolled roads ).

Also, based on fellow drivers from the UK, whom I met en-route - these are not the people that want to save money - they drive to the south ( not necessary France but Spain, Italy and Switzerland too) because they have 2nd hones or go for quality holidays in the resorts, so few 100’s of Pounds extra won’t make difference to them.

The infrastructure is designed for the large gauge shuttles, not motorail wagons that could fit on the railways of France and elsewhere in Europe. It’s also, as you say, in use all the time for the shuttles!

Yes, I know that - smaller , “continent “ compatible stock would fit in to the Folkestone platforms , would it not ?

As for the gap between edge of the platform and the wagon - let’s use metal ramps , you know this same as for the current shuttle wagons , shall we?

I also know existing infrastructure is used by the shuttles - what if one of the shuttles becomes motor rail ( with continent compatible stock ) - run by this same company ?
Pathing , at least through The Tunnel should not be a problem.

Because, as explained several times upthread, the tunnel shuttles don’t fit on the continental gauge.

Yes, I know , I suggested it many times too, that it would need to be dedicated stock fitting to the continental gauge .

 

[30907]

How do you know , what potential timing of such a train would be ( Folkestone - South of France) ?

By checking French Motorail timings from Calais 20 years ago? From memory, about 12hr overnight, plus lengthy loading time. A TGV from Lille takes less than 5, driving on the Autoroute about 9 plus stops, so 11+

Yes, I know that - smaller , “continent “ compatible stock would fit in to the Folkestone platforms , would it not ?
As for the gap between edge of the platform and the wagon - let’s use metal ramps , you know this same as for the current shuttle wagons , shall we?

Fine, but you then have to build a matching terminal at Avignon - classic motorail is set up for end loading.

I also know existing infrastructure is used by the shuttles - what if one of the shuttles becomes motor rail ( with continent compatible stock ) - run by this same company ?
Pathing , at least through The Tunnel should not be a problem.

So you replace a shuttle with a train conveying at most half the number of vehicles (probably more like 1/3).

Yes, I miss motorail too, but...

 

[Bald Rick]

How do you know , what potential timing of such a train would be ( Folkestone - South of France) ?

Based on the timing of overnight trains that used to run from Calais to the south of France. I have used them. Have you?

And how can you compare driving versus comfort of being driven, while in bed and your car is behind you ?

Personally I would MUCH prefer the drive. Stop when I like, see what I want, go ‘off piste’ if I wish. Be able to get anything I’m taking with me by opening the boot. I certainly wouldn’t want to be stuck in a sleeper cabin for 12 hours, in a small bed with limited room. I appreciate others may think differently, especially when enduring the A26 from Reims to Calais.

Price is secondary consideration because as I said it costs at least £500 to get there if driving ( if staying in a hotel overnight and using tolled roads ).

No, it doesn’t cost £500. It might cost £500 if you choose high end hotels and drive a ‘gas guzzler’. The toll from Calais to Avignon is €98.60. Its 610 miles, say 60 litres of fuel for the average vehicle, even with French fuel prices thats less than £100. (or nothing if you drive a Tesla ). If you choose to stay in a hotel (many people don’t) then there are countless options under £60 a night, with some under £40. I have stayed at these types of hotel and they are fine - and far, far better than a cabin in a sleeper train.

So, even if you stay overnight it is quite feasible to do it for £250. When I go later this year it will be £250 down, £200 back.


Bear in mind a motorail with sleepers would be well over £1000 each way.

Also, based on fellow drivers from the UK, whom I met en-route - these are not the people that want to save money - they drive to the south ( not necessary France but Spain, Italy and Switzerland too) because they have 2nd hones or go for quality holidays in the resorts, so few 100’s of Pounds extra won’t make difference to them.

That quite an assessment. Some people travelling are very price concious. Some want to take a very leisurely trip. Some are time poor and every minute counts. Personally I have been all three of these in my time.

As for the gap between edge of the platform and the wagon - let’s use metal ramps , you know this same as for the current shuttle wagons , shall we?

What height will the car wagon floor be?

I also know existing infrastructure is used by the shuttles - what if one of the shuttles becomes motor rail ( with continent compatible stock ) - run by this same company ?

What would convince GetLink to give up one of their Shuttle paths for this? And at least two of their loading slots at Folkestone (as it will take longer to load), but then leave unused capacity at Coquelles? For fewer vehicles per path? Or put another way: more resource required for fewer vehicles = higher cost per vehicle…

driving on the Autoroute about 9 plus stops, so 11+

Yep, my last trip from near Avignon to Calais Eurotunnel was 9hr including stops. (half hour for lunch, plus a couple of other quick stops to swap drivers etc.) Left Provence at 0830, back in Hertfordshire for dinner.