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With e-scooters set to become legal in the near future, what does that mean for car drivers (the lowest class citizen) on the roads?

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Bletchleyite

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They are available to rent now in Bristol, Cambridge and other cities. I think it's a pilot scheme. You have to download an app and provide your driving licence. Fiend and I used a couple in Bristol at the weekend to get back to a mates after a night out. It was more fun than a cab and no more expensive.
I'm not sure they are particularly safe though, there were definitely moments on busy roads I felt very exposed and a little nervous.

Be careful. At present they are considered motor vehicles, so you can lose your car licence by drink-driving one. The breathalyser applies (unlike on a bicycle) with the same thresholds as a car or motorcycle.

The trials are in Milton Keynes as well, by the way, that's how I've used them.
 
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JohnMcL7

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Be careful. At present they are considered motor vehicles, so you can lose your car licence by drink-driving one. The breathalyser applies (unlike on a bicycle) with the same thresholds as a car or motorcycle.

The trials are in Milton Keynes as well, by the way, that's how I've used them.
Very important point and it has happened already, a lady was banned for 18 months for riding an e-scooter while over the limit and thought it was allowed:

 

trebor79

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Be careful. At present they are considered motor vehicles, so you can lose your car licence by drink-driving one. The breathalyser applies (unlike on a bicycle) with the same thresholds as a car or motorcycle.

The trials are in Milton Keynes as well, by the way, that's how I've used them.
It's ok. Now we're middle aged, a night out with my university friends involves an escape room, a couple of drinks in a pub, a session in a board game cafe followed by dinner at an upmarket steak place. The days of 12 pints of Stella are over!
 

jon0844

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So what does the red traffic light mean to a car (etc) driver ?.

Red lights to a car, van, lorry or motorcycle rider means stop - and that's what they do. When they don't, it really stands out because it is rare.

The risk is when the lights first turn red, as it's quite common for one, maybe two, vehicles to jump through the amber stage and potentially pass when it has turned red. Most councils or agencies purposely set a delay to account for this before the lights change another way, or for pedestrians.

Crossing lights have sensors and will wait to change, and if the sensors fail (common) then they run to a fixed timer - which I am sure we've all noticed as they don't change despite there being no vehicles and logical reason to wait. [If you see this, report the lights to the local authority].

What you don't normally see is a car just driving straight through red lights at any time. Not even if you have a crossing that is broken and keeps changing even at night when there's nobody around. Vehicles still stop and wait.
 

PeterC

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Red lights to a car, van, lorry or motorcycle rider means stop - and that's what they do. When they don't, it really stands out because it is rare.

The risk is when the lights first turn red, as it's quite common for one, maybe two, vehicles to jump through the amber stage and potentially pass when it has turned red. Most councils or agencies purposely set a delay to account for this before the lights change another way, or for pedestrians.

Crossing lights have sensors and will wait to change, and if the sensors fail (common) then they run to a fixed timer - which I am sure we've all noticed as they don't change despite there being no vehicles and logical reason to wait. [If you see this, report the lights to the local authority].

What you don't normally see is a car just driving straight through red lights at any time. Not even if you have a crossing that is broken and keeps changing even at night when there's nobody around. Vehicles still stop and wait.
In over 50 years of driving I have seen just one car overtake a queue of traffic in order to run a red light. I have long since lost count of the number of bikes i have seen doing the same thing.
 

SargeNpton

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They are available to rent now in Bristol, Cambridge and other cities. I think it's a pilot scheme. You have to download an app and provide your driving licence. Fiend and I used a couple in Bristol at the weekend to get back to a mates after a night out. It was more fun than a cab and no more expensive.
I'm not sure they are particularly safe though, there were definitely moments on busy roads I felt very exposed and a little nervous.
Northampton has an e-scooter hire trial as well. My observations from that...

1) The driving licence requirement seems to be fairly easy to get round, based on seeing the number of underage riders.
2) They are supposed to be used on the road, or on designated cycle paths. A significant number of the users ignore that; bowling along pavements and through parks at top speed and trying to force pedestrians out of the way.
3) You often see them being used two-up when it's supposed to be for single person only.
4) At the end of the ride the user is supposed to park them safely, but far too many times they are left obstructing the pavement so that people with pushchairs or mobility scooters can't get past.
5) Now the favoured means of transport for the local drug couriers.
 

trebor79

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Northampton has an e-scooter hire trial as well. My observations from that...

1) The driving licence requirement seems to be fairly easy to get round, based on seeing the number of underage riders.
2) They are supposed to be used on the road, or on designated cycle paths. A significant number of the users ignore that; bowling along pavements and through parks at top speed and trying to force pedestrians out of the way.
3) You often see them being used two-up when it's supposed to be for single person only.
4) At the end of the ride the user is supposed to park them safely, but far too many times they are left obstructing the pavement so that people with pushchairs or mobility scooters can't get past.
5) Now the favoured means of transport for the local drug couriers.
1. I was surprised that the verification of my licence was instant at 2330 on a Saturday. I guess they are using some sort of AI, but my selfie looked nothing like my licence photo.
2. That explains why the footpath through a park that Google (allegedly set to a Voi compatible route) resulted in the scooters turning off and us having to push for a while as we'd entered on of the "no go" geofenced areas. We were confused as it appeared perfectly OK to us.
They should be able to geofence the parks at least - maybe write to them to suggest it.
4. We didn't see too many issues of that. For some reason the app requires you to take a photo of it parked and there's a warning that they will take action if parked inappropriately, so perhaps they are getting on top of that.

The other thing we had to do (because it was late "and your reaction times might be slower" ie "you might be p****d") was so a little test where we had to tap helmets that appeared randomly on the screen. We weren't drunk but I only scored 2 out of 5 because I was doing it one handed, and my friend scored 0 out of 5. I was prompted with "Think about getting a taxi instead", but it let me go ahead and unlock the scooter anyway. My friend got told "You haven't passed this test, you should get a taxi instead", but then the next screen allowed her to ignore that and unlock the scooter anyway.
 

SargeNpton

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Cars famously never used to transport drugs of course : )
Two situations observed...

Car parked in side street in the town centre for 10 minutes in the evening. Visited by half a dozen people on hire scooters, then drives off.

In local park: two men on phones all the time mid-afternoon, conspicuously trying to be inconspicuous, with people on hire scooters coming and going.
 

AM9

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Red lights to a car, van, lorry or motorcycle rider means stop - and that's what they do. When they don't, it really stands out because it is rare.

The risk is when the lights first turn red, as it's quite common for one, maybe two, vehicles to jump through the amber stage and potentially pass when it has turned red. Most councils or agencies purposely set a delay to account for this before the lights change another way, or for pedestrians.

Crossing lights have sensors and will wait to change, and if the sensors fail (common) then they run to a fixed timer - which I am sure we've all noticed as they don't change despite there being no vehicles and logical reason to wait. [If you see this, report the lights to the local authority].

What you don't normally see is a car just driving straight through red lights at any time. Not even if you have a crossing that is broken and keeps changing even at night when there's nobody around. Vehicles still stop and wait.
Drivers may be more obediant here in Hertfordshire but take a look at some of Ashley Neil's videos on Youtube, there seems to be a particular problem in Lancashire and Liverpool where many drivers routinely ignore red lights, - often with disasterous results.
 

JohnMcL7

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It's just one of the common anti-cycling myths that cyclists go through red lights at a much higher proportion than drivers do, studies have show the rates of red light jumping to be similar between both and ultimately it's the person that jumps the red light not the vehicle:

Transport for London Conducted a survey at 5 different locations around London and marked the number of cyclists who went through red lights.

  • Total Cyclists who ran a red light – 1180 / 6322
  • % Cyclists of went through a red light – 16%.
  • % of cyclists who didn’t go through a red light – 84%

More importantly when looking at injuries caused by jumping red lights, it's the motorists who are responsible for most of them:

Of pedestrians injured in London in a collision caused by red light jumping only 4% involve cyclists, whereas 71% occur when a car driver jumps a red light and 13% when a motorcyclist does. As an organisation representing those two road user groups, CTC suggests IAM ought to call for more road traffic policing to enforce traffic laws, rather than highlighting red light jumping by cyclists
Just been out walking the dog and saw three cars running red lights and doing it on pedestrian crossings as well, they were nowhere near making it on amber.
 
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jon0844

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Are you saying the same, or more than 16% of motorised vehicle users jump red lights (as in just drive through like they're green or not on)? I'd love to see the video evidence of that.

Jumping the lights as they change is a big problem, and always has been, but there are ways to reduce the risk from imposing delays to having red light cameras. I still say that a vehicle just approaching lights and carrying on, or weaving through pedestrians, is not a thing in all but the most exceptional cases - like a driver being drunk/drugged or perhaps escaping the scene and being chased by police.

The TfL survey sounds reasonable, but I'm assuming that's an average and is made up of certain junctions and crossings where my personal experience is that it would be nearer 60-80% and other locations, like junctions where it will be nearer 0-5% simply because the lights are at busy junctions where you'd probably die by jumping - and so people don't, any more than pedestrians cross on red.

The junction near Blackfriars Station (North end) is a good example of where compliance is high. Pick a quieter road, perhaps with a 20mph limit, and crossings may as well not have lights.
 

Peter Sarf

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In over 50 years of driving I have seen just one car overtake a queue of traffic in order to run a red light. I have long since lost count of the number of bikes i have seen doing the same thing.
Same here. Often the bicycle will use the pedestrian route (pavement and pedestrian crossing regardless of red or green) to avoid the red traffic light !.
It's just one of the common anti-cycling myths that cyclists go through red lights at a much higher proportion than drivers do, studies have show the rates of red light jumping to be similar between both and ultimately it's the person that jumps the red light not the vehicle:



More importantly when looking at injuries caused by jumping red lights, it's the motorists who are responsible for most of them:


Just been out walking the dog and saw three cars running red lights and doing it on pedestrian crossings as well, they were nowhere near making it on amber.
I have not seen many cars go through a red light that has not just changed from amber (which is still to be frowned upon) but I have seen plenty of cycles go through regardless of how long the light has been red.
 

AM9

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Same here. Often the bicycle will use the pedestrian route (pavement and pedestrian crossing regardless of red or green) to avoid the red traffic light !.

I have not seen many cars go through a red light that has not just changed from amber (which is still to be frowned upon) but I have seen plenty of cycles go through regardless of how long the light has been red.
All this 'other than when the lights have just changed' stuff is a question of degree.
In the UK, traffic lights show the yellow phase for 4-6 seconds before the red phase. So in a 30mph speed limit area, a vehicle can be travelling no more than is travelling 13.5 m per second. Now take the minimum amber phase, 4 seconds, a vehicle at 30mph will cover 54m. The stopping distance at that speed is 23m, i.e less than half the distance given by the light phase. So, claiming that it would have been damgerous to stop in normal visibility and good road surface conditions would mean that either the driver was driving well over the speed limit, or didn't bother and ran the red light. I have seen many vehicles shoot through red lights, actually accelerating when the amber appears, so how is that 'unavoidable' when the lights change from red to amber.
The complaints about cyclists running through red lights is more a whinge because they wouldn't get away with it, whereas cyclists normally only put their own lives at risk.
 

Peter Sarf

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All this 'other than when the lights have just changed' stuff is a question of degree.
In the UK, traffic lights show the yellow phase for 4-6 seconds before the red phase. So in a 30mph speed limit area, a vehicle can be travelling no more than is travelling 13.5 m per second. Now take the minimum amber phase, 4 seconds, a vehicle at 30mph will cover 54m. The stopping distance at that speed is 23m, i.e less than half the distance given by the light phase. So, claiming that it would have been damgerous to stop in normal visibility and good road surface conditions would mean that either the driver was driving well over the speed limit, or didn't bother and ran the red light. I have seen many vehicles shoot through red lights, actually accelerating when the amber appears, so how is that 'unavoidable' when the lights change from red to amber.
The complaints about cyclists running through red lights is more a whinge because they wouldn't get away with it, whereas cyclists normally only put their own lives at risk.
My bold. The trouble is who gets blamed for the resulting injury ?. And it is not pleasant hurting someone even if it is deemed not to be your own fault.

When cyclists complain about car drivers I am at pains to point out that not all car drivers are bad just as not all cyclists are bad. But it is inevitable that a disproportionate number of cyclists will be involved in accidents until it is mandatory for all cyclists to have proper training and pass a test. With more training there will be more understanding of the risks and any mitigation required. It is not feasible to off load blame by seeing the cyclist as a victim all the time.
 

AM9

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My bold. The trouble is who gets blamed for the resulting injury ?. And it is not pleasant hurting someone even if it is deemed not to be your own fault.
The person who didn't obey the rules of the road.
Making cyclists pass tests won't prevent them being injured or killed by errant motor vehicle drivers, and they have been required to pass a test since 1935.
 

Peter Sarf

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The person who didn't obey the rules of the road.
Making cyclists pass tests won't prevent them being injured or killed by errant motor vehicle drivers, and they have been required to pass a test since 1935.
Your right BUT training of cyclists will reduce the number of accidents caused by the cyclist.

There will always be those who ignore the rules and recommendations as soon as possible after they pass a test regardless of mode. But I would hope that the majority would gain and retain knowledge that helped them be safer.
 

AM9

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Your right BUT training of cyclists will reduce the number of accidents caused by the cyclist.

There will always be those who ignore the rules and recommendations as soon as possible after they pass a test regardless of mode. But I would hope that the majority would gain and retain knowledge that helped them be safer.
As @Bletchleyite and others here have commented many times, until cyclists are given priority appropriate to their vulnerability (that has just been achieved, but all motorists need to understand and obey the changes in the law), their numbers won't increease sufficiently to make cycling safer. The reason why some continental countries have less cycling incidents where the cyclists usually come off worse is the low numbers of them on the roads. In The Netherlands or Denmark where cycling is accepted by motorised road users, it took larger numbers for it to be achieved.
 

bramling

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All this 'other than when the lights have just changed' stuff is a question of degree.
In the UK, traffic lights show the yellow phase for 4-6 seconds before the red phase. So in a 30mph speed limit area, a vehicle can be travelling no more than is travelling 13.5 m per second. Now take the minimum amber phase, 4 seconds, a vehicle at 30mph will cover 54m. The stopping distance at that speed is 23m, i.e less than half the distance given by the light phase. So, claiming that it would have been damgerous to stop in normal visibility and good road surface conditions would mean that either the driver was driving well over the speed limit, or didn't bother and ran the red light. I have seen many vehicles shoot through red lights, actually accelerating when the amber appears, so how is that 'unavoidable' when the lights change from red to amber.
The complaints about cyclists running through red lights is more a whinge because they wouldn't get away with it, whereas cyclists normally only put their own lives at risk.

I have to say I’m not massively bothered about cyclists ignoring red lights, as long as they do it in a way which doesn’t impact on others. Some are okay about this, but an increasing number aren’t. I’ve rather lost patience with this at a junction near Euston where I often cross the road and where it’s pretty much *guaranteed* there will be a cyclist sail straight through. One of these days it’s going to result in one going head first over their handlebars.

Cyclists don’t help themselves though. Like yesterday we were walking side-by-side on a lightly used shared-use pavement. Hear a bell, then a second later before we had time to move cyclist comes past emitting a gob full of invective and shaking his head.

I’ve always been pretty pro cycling, however with the attitude so many seem to exhibit towards pedestrians I’m afraid to say I find it hard to be supportive.
 

The Ham

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All this 'other than when the lights have just changed' stuff is a question of degree.
In the UK, traffic lights show the yellow phase for 4-6 seconds before the red phase. So in a 30mph speed limit area, a vehicle can be travelling no more than is travelling 13.5 m per second. Now take the minimum amber phase, 4 seconds, a vehicle at 30mph will cover 54m. The stopping distance at that speed is 23m, i.e less than half the distance given by the light phase. So, claiming that it would have been damgerous to stop in normal visibility and good road surface conditions would mean that either the driver was driving well over the speed limit, or didn't bother and ran the red light. I have seen many vehicles shoot through red lights, actually accelerating when the amber appears, so how is that 'unavoidable' when the lights change from red to amber.
The complaints about cyclists running through red lights is more a whinge because they wouldn't get away with it, whereas cyclists normally only put their own lives at risk.

The typical intergreen period is 4 to 6 seconds (although it can be negative depending where conflict points are) generally the amber is 3 seconds.

Likewise that 23m stopping distance is for 30kph (specified in Manual for Streets), which also specifies that the stopping distance at 30mph is 43m.

Whilst breaking sooner is possible, not by very much; for example it assumes a reaction time of 1.5 seconds and whilst research has shown that 0.9 seconds is achievable by a significant majority of people in certain situations that's only going to reduce it from 43m to about 36m.

Having said that within the amber time the vast majority of drivers should be able to stop safely and without too much discomfort of they are traveling at 30mph.

Your right BUT training of cyclists will reduce the number of accidents caused by the cyclist.

There will always be those who ignore the rules and recommendations as soon as possible after they pass a test regardless of mode. But I would hope that the majority would gain and retain knowledge that helped them be safer.

On average there's less than 3 deaths a year caused by cyclists, in comparison there's over 200 caused by drunk driving.

Given the above data, is training cyclists going to be a key priority in any road safety policy? Unless there's over 75 times more dunks on the road than there are cyclists, I suspect not.

Yes cyclists do stupid things, yes they scare and injury pedestrians, yes they don't always do as they should. However nor do car drivers and the risk to nearly all road users is much greater from them.

A classic complaint is cyclists going to close to a pedestrian and too fast, yet those very same people are likely to do the same to others when they are in a car by not passing a cyclist with the required space laid down in the highway code.

Yes training of cyclists would be helpful, however making it a barrier to cycling would likely not benefit anyone. For instance through people driving rather than cycling and therefore increasing the volume of traffic (and therefore likelihood of congestion).
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes training of cyclists would be helpful, however making it a barrier to cycling would likely not benefit anyone. For instance through people driving rather than cycling and therefore increasing the volume of traffic (and therefore likelihood of congestion).

To me the best way to train and encourage cycling at the same time would be to run Cycling Proficiency type schemes through schools, and off the back of those positively encourage cycling to school, including "cycling buses" (like walking buses) where this would be sensible, and proper secure indoor storage facilities at schools.
 

Peter Sarf

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I have to say I’m not massively bothered about cyclists ignoring red lights, as long as they do it in a way which doesn’t impact on others. Some are okay about this, but an increasing number aren’t. I’ve rather lost patience with this at a junction near Euston where I often cross the road and where it’s pretty much *guaranteed* there will be a cyclist sail straight through. One of these days it’s going to result in one going head first over their handlebars.

Cyclists don’t help themselves though. Like yesterday we were walking side-by-side on a lightly used shared-use pavement. Hear a bell, then a second later before we had time to move cyclist comes past emitting a gob full of invective and shaking his head.

I’ve always been pretty pro cycling, however with the attitude so many seem to exhibit towards pedestrians I’m afraid to say I find it hard to be supportive.
I have seen the aggression and yet they then want to be seen as the victim. Note that not all cyclists are like this but a minority do themselves no favours.
The typical intergreen period is 4 to 6 seconds (although it can be negative depending where conflict points are) generally the amber is 3 seconds.

Likewise that 23m stopping distance is for 30kph (specified in Manual for Streets), which also specifies that the stopping distance at 30mph is 43m.

Whilst breaking sooner is possible, not by very much; for example it assumes a reaction time of 1.5 seconds and whilst research has shown that 0.9 seconds is achievable by a significant majority of people in certain situations that's only going to reduce it from 43m to about 36m.

Having said that within the amber time the vast majority of drivers should be able to stop safely and without too much discomfort of they are traveling at 30mph.



On average there's less than 3 deaths a year caused by cyclists, in comparison there's over 200 caused by drunk driving.

Given the above data, is training cyclists going to be a key priority in any road safety policy? Unless there's over 75 times more dunks on the road than there are cyclists, I suspect not.

Yes cyclists do stupid things, yes they scare and injury pedestrians, yes they don't always do as they should. However nor do car drivers and the risk to nearly all road users is much greater from them.

A classic complaint is cyclists going to close to a pedestrian and too fast, yet those very same people are likely to do the same to others when they are in a car by not passing a cyclist with the required space laid down in the highway code.

Yes training of cyclists would be helpful, however making it a barrier to cycling would likely not benefit anyone. For instance through people driving rather than cycling and therefore increasing the volume of traffic (and therefore likelihood of congestion).
I have noticed cyclists will pass on the inside leaving less space than I would want to leave them if I overtook them.

If there is to be a shift to cycling then one would hope many are car drivers - they (should) have the road sense training already.
To me the best way to train and encourage cycling at the same time would be to run Cycling Proficiency type schemes through schools, and off the back of those positively encourage cycling to school, including "cycling buses" (like walking buses) where this would be sensible, and proper secure indoor storage facilities at schools.
The cycling proficiency scheme is the very thing I remember from my child hood. It was very good and made learning to drive a car ten years much easier. It is what I dearly wish all road users should learn.

Even pedestrians would learn a bit. For example my partner does not drive. She has no idea which direction to look at a pedestrian crossing or junction and when the lights will be in her favour.

As @Bletchleyite and others here have commented many times, until cyclists are given priority appropriate to their vulnerability (that has just been achieved, but all motorists need to understand and obey the changes in the law), their numbers won't increease sufficiently to make cycling safer. The reason why some continental countries have less cycling incidents where the cyclists usually come off worse is the low numbers of them on the roads. In The Netherlands or Denmark where cycling is accepted by motorised road users, it took larger numbers for it to be achieved.
I wonder if there is a danger of putting the cart before the horse ?. Are we making the roads safer by making the roads unusable by motorised vehicle users.

I go back to my original thoughts. Cycles, eScooters and motorcycles are narrow vehicles with no metal box around them.
a) Their narrowness makes them easier to overlook even if to the side or front - so car drivers etc must remember a small blob is not necessarily a car/lorry a long way away. I have even seen cyclists over look each other !. But to the rear remember there is always a risk of a blind spot in the mirrors - I have driven a company van (so no windows) where the mirrors were frankly useless (I a traffic jam I lost a whole black cab in the left mirror once - I could hear it but not see it). How many cycles have mirrors ?.
b) The lack of a box makes the user more vulnerable. That is not a car drivers fault it is just a fact of life.
c) The narrowness also means they slip through narrow spaces to appear in a vulnerable location. Example - overtaking a vehicle on the left side as the vehicle turns left. All users must remember to indicate BUT I would not pass a car on its left side as it slows down at a junction. Of course as a car driver I deem they are unlikely to be so far from the curb and yet turning left. But when I am on a cycle with the car in question in the same lane as me I would not rely on them not turning left at a junction.

As a car driver I do not overtake a cycle as we both approach a junction where I intend to turn left. I will be indicating and letting them stay ahead. But if I slow down to let the cyclist stay in front of me I then have a problem with other cyclists trying to squeeze past my left side. There is then a risk of an accident. Training should make those cyclists understand the risk they are taking by being impatient.

Maybe there are just too many road users.
 
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AM9

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I have noticed cyclists will pass on the inside leaving less space than I would want to leave them if I overtook them.

There's a wealth of difference between a cyclist passing a stationary or slow moving four wheeled vehicle, and a four wheeled vehicle passing a relatively slow moving cyclist. A motor vehicle at slow speed doesn't normally make an unpredictable lateral move unless to deliberately squeeze the cyclist so 1 metre is probably adequate. A vehicle travelling at road speed (say 30 mph or more) may keep a straight line but a cyclist is prone to uneven road surfaces, wind and of course the sideward air pressure from a close passing vehicle. When that happens: the natural reaction is to steer off line to keep balance, which can have drastic consequences for the cyclist. That is the reason for the increase in clearance that cyclists must be afforded since January this year. Also, it is no coincidence that the minimum distance increases with passing speed. This at last recognises the vulnerability of cyclists particularly with motorists who consider that there's adequate room for themselves, ignoring to dangers to others. If the clearance isn't available, then the motorist should slow down until there is adequate safe clearance. The reason that 1.5m and 2.0m has been specified is to make it clear that individual judgement clearly hasn't worked in the past. Now, motorists know what is expected of them and cyclists can rely on a safe distance being left.

I wonder if there is a danger of putting the cart before the horse ?. Are we making the roads safer by making the roads unusable by motorised vehicle users.

Nothing mentioned in this thread makes roads "unusable". If it means that drivers of motorised vehicles have to consider the safety of more vulnerable users (i.e. cyclists and pedestrians) then how can that be "putting the cart before that horse". If some motorists really believe that it says a lot about their attitudes to other road users.


Maybe there are just too many road users.

Or more realistically, maybe too many road users use vehicles that take up too much road.
 

The Ham

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Maybe there are just too many road users.

Given that there are more cars in the UK than there are tax payers (and there's a fair few tax payers who don't own a car, I know I'm one) it is likely that there's only one type of road user that there's likely to be too many of.

A single bus with just 8 people on it (which most works say is a fairly lightly used bus) would be carrying about the same number of people as would (on average) be carried by 5 cars, yet take up the same road space as 2 cars.

As such anyone who likes driving should want all the other car drivers to give up their cars.
 

Peter Sarf

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Given that there are more cars in the UK than there are tax payers (and there's a fair few tax payers who don't own a car, I know I'm one) it is likely that there's only one type of road user that there's likely to be too many of.

A single bus with just 8 people on it (which most works say is a fairly lightly used bus) would be carrying about the same number of people as would (on average) be carried by 5 cars, yet take up the same road space as 2 cars.

As such anyone who likes driving should want all the other car drivers to give up their cars.
I think there are plenty of car drivers who would like more cars off the road - but not theirs !.

There's a wealth of difference between a cyclist passing a stationary or slow moving four wheeled vehicle, and a four wheeled vehicle passing a relatively slow moving cyclist. A motor vehicle at slow speed doesn't normally make an unpredictable lateral move unless to deliberately squeeze the cyclist so 1 metre is probably adequate. A vehicle travelling at road speed (say 30 mph or more) may keep a straight line but a cyclist is prone to uneven road surfaces, wind and of course the sideward air pressure from a close passing vehicle. When that happens: the natural reaction is to steer off line to keep balance, which can have drastic consequences for the cyclist. That is the reason for the increase in clearance that cyclists must be afforded since January this year. Also, it is no coincidence that the minimum distance increases with passing speed. This at last recognises the vulnerability of cyclists particularly with motorists who consider that there's adequate room for themselves, ignoring to dangers to others. If the clearance isn't available, then the motorist should slow down until there is adequate safe clearance. The reason that 1.5m and 2.0m has been specified is to make it clear that individual judgement clearly hasn't worked in the past. Now, motorists know what is expected of them and cyclists can rely on a safe distance being left.



Nothing mentioned in this thread makes roads "unusable". If it means that drivers of motorised vehicles have to consider the safety of more vulnerable users (i.e. cyclists and pedestrians) then how can that be "putting the cart before that horse". If some motorists really believe that it says a lot about their attitudes to other road users.




Or more realistically, maybe too many road users use vehicles that take up too much road.
My bold. I see plenty of cyclists edging up the side of a car at a lot less than the 1 metre spacing you refer to. A near stationary car might make an unpredictable left turn. The car driver should be indicating but it is not a good idea to overtake on the left side just because the car is not indicating left but should be. As a car driver I would consider it a risk to my car but as a cyclist I would consider it dangerous.
 
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AM9

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I think there are plenty of car drivers who would like more cars off the road - but not theirs !.


My bold. I see plenty of cyclists edging up the side of a car at a lot less than the 1 metre spacing you refer to. A near stationary car might make an unpredictable left turn. The car driver should be indicating but it is not a good idea to overtake on the left side just because the car is not indicating left but should be. As a car driver I would consider it a risk to my car but as a cyclist I would consider it dangerous.
You've completely missed the point of my post which was answering your statement: "I have noticed cyclists will pass on the inside leaving less space than I would want to leave them if I overtook them."

I have explained why such a difference should be reasonable and it would seem that the recent change to the law of space that motor vehicles are now required to leave when passing cyclists underlines that reason. For too long, motorists have pushed past cyclists when there is inadequate space to do so, instead of waiting until it is safe. This persistent bullying of more vulnerable road users has led to the change in the law. Do it now and it would be regarded as a moving traffic offence. At last, this new hierachy of road users priorities addresses many safety issues.
You've also misunderstood my comment on a car not making an unpredictable lateral move, because motor vehicles are mostly four wheeled vehicles and generally keep whatever track the driver sets. The driver of course might do something that is unsfe for other road users and that is why the law now states that drivers wishing to turn left must indicate clearly and check it is clear before they make the manoeuvre. A cyclist can and does make involuntary unpredictable sideways movements, generally small, l to avoid potholes or keep balance when wind/air pressure upsets that balance. It is unavoidable but now it is the responsibility of motorists to recognise that and take the precautions necessary to prevent a collision.
 

Peter Sarf

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You've completely missed the point of my post which was answering your statement: "I have noticed cyclists will pass on the inside leaving less space than I would want to leave them if I overtook them."

I have explained why such a difference should be reasonable and it would seem that the recent change to the law of space that motor vehicles are now required to leave when passing cyclists underlines that reason. For too long, motorists have pushed past cyclists when there is inadequate space to do so, instead of waiting until it is safe. This persistent bullying of more vulnerable road users has led to the change in the law. Do it now and it would be regarded as a moving traffic offence. At last, this new hierachy of road users priorities addresses many safety issues.
You've also misunderstood my comment on a car not making an unpredictable lateral move, because motor vehicles are mostly four wheeled vehicles and generally keep whatever track the driver sets. The driver of course might do something that is unsfe for other road users and that is why the law now states that drivers wishing to turn left must indicate clearly and check it is clear before they make the manoeuvre. A cyclist can and does make involuntary unpredictable sideways movements, generally small, l to avoid potholes or keep balance when wind/air pressure upsets that balance. It is unavoidable but now it is the responsibility of motorists to recognise that and take the precautions necessary to prevent a collision.
I took in what you said but wanted to add that cars can change direction. Certainly not as regularly as the inevitable twitch or wobble from a bicycle. My point is that if a car driver should leave so much space then a cyclist should also leave the same space. I prefer to leave enough space so that a cyclist can fall over sideways and my wheels will not go over the cyclists head or body. I would like to afforded the same courtesy when the cyclist has the choice.

My bold plus underline - If a car is stuck in a queue (or moving in traffic slowly) and a cycle overtakes the car at the cycles normal speed then the chances of the cycle changing direction are very similar to if the car were overtaking. There is the effect of air turbulence from cars etc at greater speeds but I have not noticed these at speeds in a queue. Now I notice that the space required is somehow less when the cycle is doing the overtaking. So a cycle can hit a near stationery car because they can choose to get closer - is that reasonable ?.

There is also the factor of cycles moving much faster than the cars in a queue or heavy traffic and this can lead to confusion and oversight. I would like inexperienced cyclists to understand that that leads to errors.

I do have a concern as a car driver with the idea that whilst turning left I have to keep an eye out for a faster moving vehicle (bicycle) that might overtake me on the wrong (left) side by squeezing through a small width. It is risky enough turning left across a bus lane. Making rules that make me liable does not get rid of the risk and I will have to prove I was indicating. It just makes some cyclists less careful. I would not overtake on the left in my car because I cannot fit my car down the left side or, if I can, then the vehicle to my right is in the wrong position to turn left (but I am still watching for indicators).
 
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AM9

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I took in what you said but wanted to add that cars can change direction. Certainly not as regularly as the inevitable twitch or wobble from a bicycle. My point is that if a car driver should leave so much space then a cyclist should also leave the same space. I prefer to leave enough space so that a cyclist can fall over sideways and my wheels will not go over the cyclists head or body. I would like to afforded the same courtesy when the cyclist has the choice.
My bold plus underline - If a car is stuck in a queue (or moving in traffic slowly) and a cycle overtakes the car at the cycles normal speed then the chances of the cycle changing direction are very similar to if the car were overtaking. There is the effect of air turbulence from cars etc at greater speeds but I have not noticed these at speeds in a queue. Now I notice that the space required is somehow less when the cycle is doing the overtaking. So a cycle can hit a near stationery car because they can choose to get closer - is that reasonable ?.

If a motor vehicle overtakes a cycle the chances are the 1+ tonne vehicle is going much faster than the 100Kg cycle and rider, so a manoeuvre with inadequate safety consideration: a) isn't the cyclist's choice and b) is likely to destabilise, possibly cause the cyclist to completely lose control and fall off the cycle (which will probably cause injury or worse).
If a cyclist overtakes (or undertakes) a motor vehicle, the vehicle is almost certainly stationary or going very slow. Thus the cyclist is responsible for their own safety, and is unlikely to carelessly touch the vehicle because in almost every instance, the 1+tonne steel box wins! The occupants of the motor vehicle wouldn't be at aby risk of injury. Cyclists would of course be responsible for any minor damage that they cause to the motor vehicle. The new rules in the Highway Code are all about safety to road users, accidental damage to a vehicle that is somebody's pride and joy is a civil matter and plays no part in road safety. Thus there is no comparison between the requirement for faster heavy vehicles to give vulnerable road users space and the necessity for cyclists to ensutre that they have enough space.
So, no, it is not reasonable or even sensible for cyclists to have to give a motor vehicle 1.5m or 2.0m space when they overtake. You seem to be assuming some sort of "courtesy" issue here but it seems more like a 'it's not fair - why shouldn't cyclists have to do the same as us motorists' argument. The new laws are concerned with safety which until the change has resulted in an increasing number of serious injuries and deaths to innocent cyclists and pedestrians. The Govenment has decided that the new hierarchy of road users is the way to go and all road users will need to recognise that and change some old habits, - or suffer prosecution for disobeying the new law. Motorists might not like it but for years, cyclists, their families and friends haven't been that happy about the consequnces of the volume of avoidable incidents.
 

Bikeman78

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Fundamentally there shouldn't be any bikes, scooters or similar ridden on the pavement. The fact that there are is yet another symptom of the lack of street policing that has developed since the 1980s or thereabouts.
The problem is that some places now actively encourage it. Clip a few blue signs to lamp posts and bingo, a joint use pavement.
 
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