Worries over changes to Scarborough's train services

[47802]

The most common sense option to me would be to add it to the Blackpool service which as people have said the majority of traffic doesn't go beyond Leeds, and not everybody can have a train to Manchester Airport

I always thought it would make sense to add the Blackpool Service to TPX but from the consultation that appears unlikely

 

[Harpers Tate]

I think, if I were likely to be affected by such a move, my main concern would be the fleet that (what is presently) Northern passengers have to endure. Seemingly randomly assigned trains of varying levels of discomfort and often of woefully insufficient size for the load.

(And before anybody gets all defensive - no, I don't blame Northern for the state or disparity of their fleet nor for the lack of sufficient stock).

142 with bus seats: bad ride, uncomfortable seating
142 refurbished: new seats dropping to bits
144 refurbished: nowhere near enough legroom. I am not large nor tall yet I cannot get comfortably into a 144 seat on one side of the train.
150: not a single seat has clear window view
153: too slow and too small
155: ? Insufficient experience to comment, but I'll guess at noisy and in need of TLC.
156: OK but very noisy. In need of TLC.
158: OK when the aircon is working, but in need of TLC.

I suspect that, even if they were "given" some more suitable equipment as part of such a handover of responsibility, operational considerations would still see a degree of randomisation of what's actually used.

The same goes for Doncaster <> Cleethorpes.

 

[David Barrett]

I think, if I were likely to be affected by such a move, my main concern would be the fleet that (what is presently) Northern passengers have to endure. Seemingly randomly assigned trains of varying levels of discomfort and often of woefully insufficient size for the load.

(And before anybody gets all defensive - no, I don't blame Northern for the state or disparity of their fleet nor for the lack of sufficient stock).

142 with bus seats: bad ride, uncomfortable seating
142 refurbished: new seats dropping to bits
144 refurbished: nowhere near enough legroom. I am not large nor tall yet I cannot get comfortably into a 144 seat on one side of the train.
150: not a single seat has clear window view
153: too slow and too small
155: ? Insufficient experience to comment, but I'll guess at noisy and in need of TLC.
156: OK but very noisy. In need of TLC.
158: OK when the aircon is working, but in need of TLC.

I suspect that, even if they were "given" some more suitable equipment as part of such a handover of responsibility, operational considerations would still see a degree of randomisation of what's actually used.

The same goes for Doncaster <> Cleethorpes.

Precisely; the Saturday after the consultation document crawled out of the woodwork I happened to be riding on the local Parly. Ninky Nonk home from Gainsborough Central. Often a few hard line G.C. men travel over this route and were discussing things as we bounced our way along the indefferent P. Way of the former Grimsby and Manchester Main Line on a 144 whereupon I was asked what I saw the future as being,

"You're sat on it" was the reply.

Regardless of rolling stock though I do think that if the future is all change at Doncaster then serious consideration should be given to the remaining Lincolnshire services not operated by EMT. to be turned over to them. It would, I think, be a a reasonably efficient unit without too many fault lines and, with traincrews and stabling at Cleethorpes, be able to provide an adequate level of service closely related to morning and evening traffic flows both via Scunthorpe and Lincoln.

However whether it be Cleethorpes, Scarborough, Barrow in Furness or Windermere in being the current Trans Pennine peripherals under review I'm afraid the future looks like one of declining quality.

 

[pennine]

Precisely; the Saturday after the consultation document crawled out of the woodwork I happened to be riding on the local Parly. Ninky Nonk home from Gainsborough Central. Often a few hard line G.C. men travel over this route and were discussing things as we bounced our way along the indefferent P. Way of the former Grimsby and Manchester Main Line on a 144 whereupon I was asked what I saw the future as being,

"You're sat on it" was the reply.

Regardless of rolling stock though I do think that if the future is all change at Doncaster then serious consideration should be given to the remaining Lincolnshire services not operated by EMT. to be turned over to them. It would, I think, be a a reasonably efficient unit without too many fault lines and, with traincrews and stabling at Cleethorpes, be able to provide an adequate level of service closely related to morning and evening traffic flows both via Scunthorpe and Lincoln.

However whether it be Cleethorpes, Scarborough, Barrow in Furness or Windermere in being the current Trans Pennine peripherals under review I'm afraid the future looks like one of declining quality.

I suppose it the same for Middlesbrough. Transfer at York and moved to Northern? I believe in progression, but it does seem that where lots of communities and big towns are going to lose out, it is a regressive step from the point of view of passengers.

With Scarborough however, I always found the atmosphere of the station to be grand, busy and something of a 'main express station'. It would be hard to think of Scarborough having 142's bouncing along, and that the 158's would be the newest regular stock on the line.

What is happening to the 185's once electrification of the core is complete?

 

[David Barrett]

I suppose it the same for Middlesbrough. Transfer at York and moved to Northern? I believe in progression, but it does seem that where lots of communities and big towns are going to lose out, it is a regressive step from the point of view of passengers.

With Scarborough however, I always found the atmosphere of the station to be grand, busy and something of a 'main express station'. It would be hard to think of Scarborough having 142's bouncing along, and that the 158's would be the newest regular stock on the line.

What is happening to the 185's once electrification of the core is complete?

Please accept my apologies for the oversight of Middlesborough.

 

[Bald Rick]

Option 5

5 car bi mode IEPs

 

[pennine]

Please accept my apologies for the oversight of Middlesborough.

Lol, easy mistake

 

[David Goddard]

Option 5

5 car bi mode IEPs

Well that was one of my suggestions, with 2x5car coming out of London hourly, calling Peterborough and Doncaster then splitting with one set to Hull and the other to Scarborough.

With the 185s being freed up by electric trains, there will be a plethora of options for them, top of my list would be for TPX to take over Blackpool - York and extend to Scarborough.

 

[IanXC]

Option 5

5 car bi mode IEPs

Funny you should say that... Its not been mentioned thus far, but the next EC franchise includes rights for services to Scarborough. Quite what bidders will propose remains unclear, but services to London would seem likely.

I would agree that few passengers travel beyond Leeds, however in my experience the most popular destination for passengers boarding at Seamer (and hence buying tickets from the Guard) is Leeds.

My view is that the Blackpool North option is the correct one, alongside some London services, and potentially shuttles at a later date in between would be the best solution to services on this line.

Regarding stations, City of York Council are very keen to proceed with Haxby (funding likely to come via West Yorkshire transport fund) but also stations at York District Hospital and Strensall - which cannot be delivered without delaying the Scarborough - the understanding being that a "stopping service" would be required.

 

[tbtc]

Under proposals from the Government the town could lose its direct services to Manchester Airport and West Yorkshire, with people being forced to change at York to head on to other destinations

The fact that the initial post suggests that Scarborough has a frequent/ regular service to Manchester Airport (rather than one a day?) suggests that the knowledge levels aren't great.

THE GOVERNMENT WANT TO SCRAP OUR REGULAR TRAINS TO MANCHESTER AIRPORT AND FORCE US TO CHANGE TRAINS? Wait, what... there's only one train a day and almost everyone manages to change trains without problem? Oh...

The number of people who prefer a direct train is probably quite high. The number of people who would refuse to change is probably lower. Millions of people manage to change trains every day, including significant numbers who are unfamiliar with the railway system here.

Ultimately it simply isn't possible to provide direct trains from everywhere to everywhere. The best that we can aspire to is satisfying the largest flows as much as is practicable within the constraints of the infrastructure.

Agreed - you could copy and paste this into dozens of threads on here!

There are always winners and losers when any changes are made. From a purely business viewpoint, I would expect that any loss in business would be more than balanced by an increase in use from the electrification. Especially if some of those who say they will use their cars return to rail after sampling the experience

This argument is used in west Wales as well, but the fact is that services such as Manchester to Milford Haven and Scarborough to Liverpool were not introduced because of high demand form either end for through travel, but because such working was the most productive use of stock and crew. In fact, the amount of through passengers between Milford and Manchester is negligible, and, although slightly higher, the through traffic between stations west of Swansea and east of Cardiff is not much more significant in the grand scheme of things. I imagine it will be much the same between east of York and west of Leeds, at least on the vast majority of services.

Clearly, the economics change when electrification of some of the route is brought in, which means that it is no longer the most economical way of doing things to have these through services running any more.

If Stagecoach or anyone else can pick up marginal traffic from those who don't want to change trains, and make a profit out of it, then that's good. I'll say it again, even though it might be stating the obvious, the railway can't provide the service that every single individual wants all the time. It has to the best it can to satisfy the greatest demand, and I don't think that a through diesel train under the wires to Liverpool once an hour is the best way to do that

Again, agreed - and the West Wales - Manchester service is a good comparison. We have a lot of routes that seem to be more about operational convenience than any massive "through" demand, but many enthusiasts believe that a longrunning service from A - B means that there must be a big number of people in A wanting to go to B (i.e. the idea that Norwich - Liverpool is a big market and bigger than Norwich - Blackpool or Ipswich - Liverpool or Cambridge - Windermere).

And in my experience there is a significant (as in nearly everybody) turnover at York. So a shuttle shouldn't affect demand badly as a lot of it is to/from York anyway!

That fits in with my view. As long as there's a decent service to York and a fairly regular one to Leeds then most of the demand to/from Scarborough will be met.

That could be a bi-hourly Leeds service alternating with a bi-hourly IEP to London, that could be an hourly Leeds service that extends to Blackpool/ Huddersfield (via Brighouse)/ Manchester Victoria (via Calder Valley)...

...hey, even Scarborough - Leeds - Carlisle, guaranteed*tourist friendly stock!

I do get the impression that the forthcoming franchise period is very much a holding operation designed to squeeze the last out of the current DMU fleet and consolidation of what is, and for many years has been, regarded as the tolerable core, beyond which much more rolling stock will have rubber tyres. Request for scepticism emoticon seconded.

I can't see many services replaced by buses/ coaches, but I think that you are right about the bolded part of your quote - and I don't think that its a bad thing - DMUs are going to become scarce resources (if we are wanting to scrap Pacers, but are electrifying other lines), so no great surprise that we are aligning some routes to match the electrification map.

The most common sense option to me would be to add it to the Blackpool service which as people have said the majority of traffic doesn't go beyond Leeds, and not everybody can have a train to Manchester Airport

Makes sense to me!

I think, if I were likely to be affected by such a move, my main concern would be the fleet that (what is presently) Northern passengers have to endure. Seemingly randomly assigned trains of varying levels of discomfort and often of woefully insufficient size for the load

I know it's Received Wisdom on here, but Northern's stock allocation isn't *that* random - due to the large number of classes that they have there are some inevitable mixing around, but any "southerner" reading the Forum would think that it's much more chaotic than it really is.

Option 5

5 car bi mode IEPs

Bring it on!

My view is that the Blackpool North option is the correct one, alongside some London services, and potentially shuttles at a later date in between would be the best solution to services on this line

Sensible

 

[David Dunning]

I think the future of the Scarborough line lies in York shuttles and a few London trains.
The service to Leeds is an issue as that's popular but North Yorkshire has taken to the improved direct London services at stations like Northallerton , Thirsk and Selby . I see Malton as another Howden. Lot of money and a lot of people with links with London in that 45 miles.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think Haxby is being progressed with.

Was it not the case that Haxby was one of the unsuccessful bids in the last round ?

 

[northwichcat]

THE GOVERNMENT WANT TO SCRAP OUR REGULAR TRAINS TO MANCHESTER AIRPORT AND FORCE US TO CHANGE TRAINS? Wait, what... there's only one train a day and almost everyone manages to change trains without problem? Oh...

Actually a few weeks ago TPE added a second direct southbound service, so it now means there's 2 direct services instead of 1 (within half-an-hour of each other), so it is a regular service but only between the hours of 06:30 and 07:00.

 

[185143]

I must admit, on the odd occasions when I've used the branch, I've been stuck by how busy the trains on it can be. Whatever solution they come up with, they'll have to keep up with capacity.

And in my experience there is a significant (as in nearly everybody) turnover at York. So a shuttle shouldn't affect demand badly as a lot of it is to/from York anyway!

Not in my experience, although this was in the DRS 47s!

 

[IanXC]

Was it not the case that Haxby was one of the unsuccessful bids in the last round ?

Indeed, as I understand it the rejection was because the New Stations Fund is aimed at unlocking private sector funds, and whilst Haxby has a very good business case, it was almost entirely public money.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Would a Hull to Scarborough via York service be any good by nailing it on to the every other hour stopper with the rest being nailed on to the Blackpool's which should be revised to run via Brighouse as its much faster than the Bradford route.

Still if any of the diesel Networkers (class 166's?) are released they could come up here and work the Sheffield - Yorkshire Coast services with the 158's being coupled together for a possible Hull - Selby - Sherburn - York - Scarborough service.

Either way, it could well be an improvement.

 

[Darren R]

Would a Hull to Scarborough via York service be any good by nailing it on to the every other hour stopper with the rest being nailed on to the Blackpool's which should be revised to run via Brighouse as its much faster than the Bradford route.

Still if any of the diesel Networkers (class 166's?) are released they could come up here and work the Sheffield - Yorkshire Coast services with the 158's being coupled together for a possible Hull - Selby - Sherburn - York - Scarborough service.

Either way, it could well be an improvement.

Not sure what anybody gains by that, especially not Scarborough. They've already got a service to Hull, which is quicker than the somewhat circuitous route you are proposing.

Additionally, while you are busy re-routing the Blackpool North - York services, I feel obliged to point out that there are a good many of us who travel between East Lancashire and Halifax/Bradford quite regularly! (Indeed, historically the service was re-introduced to provide a direct service for commuters between Burnley and Bradford following a Building Society merger. There are large numbers of commuters between East Lancashire and Bradford.)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Additionally, while you are busy re-routing the Blackpool North - York services, I feel obliged to point out that there are a good many of us who travel between East Lancashire and Halifax/Bradford quite regularly! (Indeed, historically the service was re-introduced to provide a direct service for commuters between Burnley and Bradford following a Building Society merger. There are large numbers of commuters between East Lancashire and Bradford.)

The actuality of a situation is far better than a hypothetical one.

 

[Welshman]

Would a Hull to Scarborough via York service be any good by nailing it on to the every other hour stopper with the rest being nailed on to the Blackpool's which should be revised to run via Brighouse as its much faster than the Bradford route.

When, in the past, because of engineering work Bradford Interchange, the York-Blackpools were diverted from Leeds to Hebden Bridge via Brighouse, the time-saving was about 10 minutes, for a non-stop run.

Presumably, if they were to be permanently diverted this way, they would call at, say, Dewsbury & Brighouse, reducing the time saved to about 5 minutes - hardly "much faster" than via Bradford, and not really a sufficient incentive to be avoiding an important centre of traffic as Bradford.

 

[Mark62]

Holidaymakers are already discouraged from traveling to Scarborough due to a total absence of extra through Saturday trains from major population centres(apart from emt london service) Years ago frequent Holiday trains ran from Birmingham, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow and stops en route. These were in addition to existing services. These trains were loco hauled and usually had 12 carriages. Invariably they ran full all summer. BR started the deliberate run down of these services, as the primed the railway for privatisation(under government direction of course) Passengers will not change from long distance trains at York on to two car cattle trains with no room for luggage. They won't do. Sorry, they don't do it. If you combine the ridiculously high fares, with the inconvenience of changing trains and then being unable to get a seat or even find a place for luggage, who in their right mind would willingly put themselves through this.
The run down of services to places like Scarborough is a disgrace. This move comes as no surprise after the Cleethorpes announcement. We have the resourses to waste on building the unnecessary HS2 and yet we are unable spend a relatively miniscule amount on providing decent train services with rolling stock that is fit for travel. The comfort levels provided on our burgeoning collection of DMU's is worse than it was 100 years ago. I am not surprised about the continued run down of sections of the network that the government consider to be superfluous to requirements.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

When, in the past, because of engineering work Bradford Interchange, the York-Blackpools were diverted from Leeds to Hebden Bridge via Brighouse, the time-saving was about 10 minutes, for a non-stop run.

Presumably, if they were to be permanently diverted this way, they would call at, say, Dewsbury & Brighouse, reducing the time saved to about 5 minutes - hardly "much faster" than via Bradford, and not really a sufficient incentive to be avoiding an important centre of traffic as Bradford.

Thats the timetable time for diverted services which include a fair amount of contingency, not the fastest possible time. The fastest journey time from Hebden Bridge to Leeds via Brighouse using timings of current services is 35 mins and that includes a stop at Brighouse, which is a 15min improvement on the 50min journey time through Halifax and Bradford.

Hebden Bridge to Milner Royd Junction (non stop, pathed as 158) 8min
Milner Royd Junction to Heaton Lodge Junction (stopping at Brighouse, pathed as Sprinter) 12 mins
Heaton Lodge Junction to Leeds 15min (non stop, pathed as 100mph).

I've been on a couple of trains that have matched this in actual travelling time - a TPE service during the Stalybridge closure and even a bat out of hell pacer which gave a white knuckle ride from Heaton Lodge non-stop to Leeds. The actual journey times were higher - the TPE service arrived at Dewsbury 10mins early and waited and the pacer had to wait nearly as long at Heaton Lodge , but for a regular timetabled service I'd expect a 15min saving on the Bradford route.

But much as I'd like a faster Hebden Bridge to Leeds service that matched the journey time to the equidistant Manchester, I agree it will not happen. The Blackpool - York services are amazingly popular and if it were routed via Brighouse half the passengers would be getting off at Hebden Bridge for a connection.

Its just a shame that the route via Bradford is so slow, yes the terrain from Milner Royd to Bradford is less than ideal and there is the reversal at Brasford, but the journey times for the 9miles between Bradford Interchange and Leeds are shocking.

 

[Jonny]

The other issue is that Scarborough direct services have to interact with the ECML at some point - which creates additional pathing issues. Would it not be easier to run a more frequent Scarborough <> York calling all stations shuttle and have the passengers cross over as necessary using the footbridge/subway/lift at York?

 

[jimm]

The run down of services to places like Scarborough is a disgrace.

Passenger traffic at Scarboriough station, 2002-3: 667,000

Passenger traffic at Scarboriough station, 2012-13: 1,032,000

 

[Hebden Bridger]

Passenger traffic at Scarboriough station, 2002-3: 667,000

Passenger traffic at Scarboriough station, 2012-13: 1,032,000

You beat me to it, its a shame the passenger figures for the 80s/90s aren't readily available.

The "golden age syndrome" of many of my generation makes me squirm with embarrassment.

 

[Manchester77]

If TPE services are removed from Scarborough I wonder if the DfT hope that the bidders for ICEC introduce a service to London via York operated by a bimodal IEP every 2 hours. It could be supplemented by a northern DMU service to York connecting with TPE services and ICEC services?

 

[Philip]

This just seems to be a repeat of the uproar created when it was announced Bolton was losing one of the half hourly TPE services to Manchester and with it the complete loss of direct services to places north of Oxenholme (and hourly Lancaster services becoming occasional). In the case of Scarborough I don't think there is a leg to stand on with retaining direct diesels under wires. Places like Holyhead and Bangor have a better case for improved connections to Manchester and the Airport and these are diesel routes anyway.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

If TPE services are removed from Scarborough I wonder if the DfT hope that the bidders for ICEC introduce a service to London via York operated by a bimodal IEP every 2 hours. It could be supplemented by a northern DMU service to York connecting with TPE services and ICEC services?

Not if the passenger breakdown in the Northern/TPE consultation is correct, with 4% of passengers from Scarborough heading for London. That would be less than 10 through passengers on each train into/out of Scarborough if my arithmetic is correct (40,000 passengers in/out a year, 5,000 trains in/out).

 

[northwichcat]

Not if the passenger breakdown in the Northern/TPE consultation is correct, with 4% of passengers from Scarborough heading for London. That would be less than 10 through passengers on each train into/out of Scarborough if my arithmetic is correct (40,000 passengers in/out a year, 5,000 trains in/out).

View attachment 18750

You have to question how many of the 20% 'other' means stations which involve using a Manchester or London train.

 

[Aictos]

If TPE services are removed from Scarborough I wonder if the DfT hope that the bidders for ICEC introduce a service to London via York operated by a bimodal IEP every 2 hours. It could be supplemented by a northern DMU service to York connecting with TPE services and ICEC services?

Done right, there would be a hourly service between Scarborough and York with the Northern service havingdecent connections with ICEC at York, Done wrong however and the Northern service would leave a few minutes in front or behind the ICEC service leaving a gap of nearly two hours between Scarborough and York.

 

[David Barrett]

Passenger traffic at Scarboriough station, 2002-3: 667,000

Passenger traffic at Scarboriough station, 2012-13: 1,032,000

Just to add to this:

Regular year round departures from Scarborough to York

Weekdays 1951/2:
07.13, 08.07, 10.20, 12.38, 15.25, 16.25, 20.00

Weekdays 1964/5:
07.15, 08.02, 10.05, 12.25, 15.10, 15.58, 16.28, 18.20, 19.53

Weekdays 2013/4:
06.30, 07.00, 07.40, 08.48, 09.48, 10.48, 11.48, 12.48, 13.48, 14.48, 15.48, 16.48, 17.48, 18.48, 19.48, 20.48 SX, 22.05

Sundays 1951/2:
10.45, 14.35, 19.27

Sundays 1964/5:
10.45, 14.25, 19.30

Sundays 2013/4:
09.20, 10.52, 11.52, 13.52, 15.52, 17.52, 19.52 21.20