Worst LA for timetable information

[RT4038]

This is the key issue for me. My local authority (the West of England Combined Authority) spends a massive amount of money updating bus stop timetable displays with full colour, laminated printouts twice a year, but they're appalling. The software is set to autopilot and the same default layout display is produced for everywhere, which in my local area means that most of the stops have whole services missing from them (due to poor use of available space), nonsensical groupings or misleading diagrams. There is no attention to detail, seemingly no proofreading and nobody doing the job seems to have an ounce of interest in the quality of what they're producing. Worst of all, because they're a black box organisation where we're not allowed to know any of the staff inside, it is impossible to direct feedback to anywhere where it might be absorbed. I raised this issue at a recent operator meeting requesting a formal response, but as usual it has been totally ignored. If this is the bright civic future of total regulation and control freakery, then we seemingly have to accept this careless, wasteful incompetence as the norm.

There is probably nobody there with the time, let alone the understanding, to investigate and reply to your request. Even then, having diagnosed the issue, the ability and the time (and to a certain extent the funding) to do anything about it will likely be extremely limited.

Local Authorities are increasingly relying on computerised systems to analyse Bus Open Data (or other data sources) and produce roadside displays. Garbage in, garbage out, and sad to say that many bus companies construct their data for the convenience (and shortcomings) of their bus and driver scheduling systems (and possibly administrative statistics too) rather than as a marketing tool to present their products to the customers.

Like many bus company staff, the LTA staff involved will likely not be regular public transport users, and will actually have little idea whether the information being presented is correct and/or understandable or not. Even if they realise something is not right, they probably don't have the time and/or the ability to meaningfully amend or manipulate the input data. How many bus company managers actually think carefully about how their BODS data is going to be presented to customers? Not many. Because that is what LTA roadside production programs are using. A bit like the counter intuitive railway ticket machines - the managers don't use them (free passes) , same nor use their buses (own or company cars).

 

[mangad]

I discovered recently that Metro's electronic 'next buses' timetable displays in the newly built Halifax bus station are not 'real time'. They do not reflect any late running or cancellations, even though such information is routinely available online. How can a new 2020s bus station have bern built without such basic functionality? What's the advantage of electronic displays over paper timetable boards if they do not have live updates?

You can have the newest, most technological facilities in the world. But they still rely on having decent tracking data provided to them. And if the data they're getting is not up to scratch then what do you do?
But just because it's not the best it can be, doesn't mean it always won't be. It's easier to put screens in from the outset than trying to retrofit them in in the future. And it may be that they've installed things with the knowledge that "yeah, this isn't perfect, but this thing in a bit will make it better."

(Frankly, even operator apps struggle in showing realtime information - number of times I've seen buses completely disappear from the Stagecoach app because they're late and the app seems incapable of handling that...)

 

[Citistar]

There is probably nobody there with the time, let alone the understanding, to investigate and reply to your request. Even then, having diagnosed the issue, the ability and the time (and to a certain extent the funding) to do anything about it will likely be extremely limited.

Local Authorities are increasingly relying on computerised systems to analyse Bus Open Data (or other data sources) and produce roadside displays. Garbage in, garbage out, and sad to say that many bus companies construct their data for the convenience (and shortcomings) of their bus and driver scheduling systems (and possibly administrative statistics too) rather than as a marketing tool to present their products to the customers.

Like many bus company staff, the LTA staff involved will likely not be regular public transport users, and will actually have little idea whether the information being presented is correct and/or understandable or not. Even if they realise something is not right, they probably don't have the time and/or the ability to meaningfully amend or manipulate the input data. How many bus company managers actually think carefully about how their BODS data is going to be presented to customers? Not many. Because that is what LTA roadside production programs are using. A bit like the counter intuitive railway ticket machines - the managers don't use them (free passes) , same nor use their buses (own or company cars).

I've read all of this, and i understand it. But i don't see a valid excuse held anywhere within there. BODS is not a new thing. I was involved in the first data inputs for it's predecessor at a local council some 24 years ago. A lack of knowledge within the staff is inexcusable - this is something which should be a prerequisite to get the job. The local authority in question has seen an explosion in staff numbers over recent years, yet still fails to functionably perform basic tasks to an acceptable standard as an organisation despite spending a huge sum of money on producing and distributing the materials. That isn't an acceptable use of public money and as a stakeholder, there should be an answer to the situation and a plan to go forward.

As others have said - this is one of the primary storefronts of the transport service. Retailers don't allow their marketing materials to be presented by people who haven't got a clue what they're doing, so why as an industry should we?

 

[TUC]

You can have the newest, most technological facilities in the world. But they still rely on having decent tracking data provided to them. And if the data they're getting is not up to scratch then what do you do?
But just because it's not the best it can be, doesn't mean it always won't be. It's easier to put screens in from the outset than trying to retrofit them in in the future. And it may be that they've installed things with the knowledge that "yeah, this isn't perfect, but this thing in a bit will make it better."

(Frankly, even operator apps struggle in showing realtime information - number of times I've seen buses completely disappear from the Stagecoach app because they're late and the app seems incapable of handling that...)

My point is that they do not appear to have bern equipped to receive tracking data, no matter what the data quality. They appear to be just 'dumb' pre-programmed screens.

Like many bus company staff, the LTA staff involved will likely not be regular public transport users, and will actually have little idea whether the information being presented is correct and/or understandable or not. Even if they realise something is not right, they probably don't have the time and/or the ability to meaningfully amend or manipulate the input data. How many bus company managers actually think carefully about how their BODS data is going to be presented to customers? Not many. Because that is what LTA roadside production programs are using. A bit like the counter intuitive railway ticket machines - the managers don't use them (free passes) , same nor use their buses (own or company cars).

That really is no excuse to be honest. Any supermarket operator who said 'I don't know anything about the quality of our food. I don't shop here' would rightly be ridiculed. Part of doing a good job is knowing what your product works well and meets the needs of your customers.

 

[takno]

You can have the newest, most technological facilities in the world. But they still rely on having decent tracking data provided to them. And if the data they're getting is not up to scratch then what do you do?
But just because it's not the best it can be, doesn't mean it always won't be. It's easier to put screens in from the outset than trying to retrofit them in in the future. And it may be that they've installed things with the knowledge that "yeah, this isn't perfect, but this thing in a bit will make it better."

(Frankly, even operator apps struggle in showing realtime information - number of times I've seen buses completely disappear from the Stagecoach app because they're late and the app seems incapable of handling that...)

The Stagecoach app is incredibly bad. The information on bustimes.org is always more accurate, and it doesn't have a meltdown every other minute.

 

[jupiter]

As a resident I think Dorset is terrible and Berwick was awful as a visitor.

The problem comes when multiple operators are on the same route but only post their own timetables at the stop.

I was at Wareham station the other day and arrived to find the 40 just pulling away. While looking at the timetable at the stop considering my options, another one turned up unexpectedly, X35 or something to Swanage via Harmans Cross, gets there before the 40!

Oh yes, when I got back I looked about the bus shelter and sure enough there’s a second timetable to read from the other operator which you have to mentally interleave to get the picture.

 

[markymark2000]

Even then, having diagnosed the issue, the ability and the time (and to a certain extent the funding) to do anything about it will likely be extremely limited.

And those which do have the ability and time, lack the will power to do anything. It amazes me the amount of LAs who fail to comply with their statutory duty to maintain NAPTAN. I've had to submit multiple complaints and escalate them to get results with some LAs (Some LAs granted had it resolved within the day but many are shocking).

Local Authorities are increasingly relying on computerised systems to analyse Bus Open Data (or other data sources) and produce roadside displays. Garbage in, garbage out, and sad to say that many bus companies construct their data for the convenience (and shortcomings) of their bus and driver scheduling systems (and possibly administrative statistics too) rather than as a marketing tool to present their products to the customers.

Is this actually what is happening? (I don't dispute what you are saying, just interested as I've not heard of this happening yet). I'd also hope that some councils aren't using this as councils who are assisting bus operators comply with bus open data, have created some awful data (TFGM being one example, they have contracted out to get someone to sort Bus Open Data for the Bee Network and the route description on some routes are awful. GoNorthWest 10 is 'Shudehill Interchange - Shops'. Which shops? Who knows? GoNorthWest 474 is 'Bury Interchange - Bury Interchange' which is useless to literally everyone).

100% garbage in, garbage out.

Interesting you say about BODS data being constructed for driver/admin ease rather than marketing. Some of this may be down to the fact BODS is meant to match the registered service rather than be pretty. BODS I think was brought in to assist in enforcement of reliability more than it was brought in for providing accurate information for passengers. As such, the data is meant to be the same as registration as this is easier for the traffic commissioner/enforcement to check relaibility. The end aim is meant to be linking the registration and BODS too in an attempt to reduce duplicate tasks, so again, this won't help with the aim of pretty data. The only saving grace is that some web/journey planning developers are quite good as making messy data into pretty (such as Bustimes.org which does it's best with the data it's given).

Like many bus company staff, the LTA staff involved will likely not be regular public transport users, and will actually have little idea whether the information being presented is correct and/or understandable or not.

A key issue within the public transport industry.

How many bus company managers actually think carefully about how their BODS data is going to be presented to customers? Not many.

This is evident with the amount of times I am having to put in complaints to higher up management to just get basic issues resolved. What is more worrying is that open data is not just a separate thing. In the instance of Stagecoach, the same data for BODS, also populates their websites journey planner so if the data is wrong, it affects a lot more than open data. It's funny really as for years the argument from operators towards all 3rd party sites was 'that site is wrong, we have nothing to do with it, contact that site owner to correct the data' and now that many of the other sites are using operators own open data, they still refuse to take responsibility. Stagecoach data in my area has been wrong for months and repeated attempts to resolve have hit dead ends. First Potteries until the other week, still claimed to be serving the old Crewe Bus Station, you know, the one which shut 18 months ago.

As others have said - this is one of the primary storefronts of the transport service. Retailers don't allow their marketing materials to be presented by people who haven't got a clue what they're doing, so why as an industry should we?

We should all just accept it because it's the easiest thing to do. They know best and you shall never question them. Any and all attempts to hold these people accountable just results in councils refusing to speak to you as you are a nobody.

So much that I could say on this topic but I won't as it will be removed.

 

[RT4038]

I've read all of this, and i understand it. But i don't see a valid excuse held anywhere within there.

I am not trying to excuse anything. Just pointing out the reality.

A lack of knowledge within the staff is inexcusable - this is something which should be a prerequisite to get the job.

Inexcusable or not, it is the reality. There are just not the suitable candidates with any knowledge that are applying. Sadly the knowledge has largely gone (both in LTAs and in bus companies) and so many people nowadays are just not public transport users / orientated and have no 'feel' for what bus passengers might need/want (and what is practicable). Even if they have the or some knowledge, there will likely not be the time or ability to much override/manipulate proprietary programs or operator data, both of which probably built by those not actually using buses either.

I was involved in the first data inputs for it's predecessor at a local council some 24 years ago.

So you will probably know that some of the shortcomings today have their roots in lack of knowledge, understanding and direction then!!

The local authority in question has seen an explosion in staff numbers over recent years, yet still fails to functionably perform basic tasks to an acceptable standard as an organisation despite spending a huge sum of money on producing and distributing the materials. That isn't an acceptable use of public money and as a stakeholder, there should be an answer to the situation and a plan to go forward.

I do not know about the organisation in question, and can only comment on my own dealings with LTAs and bus operators. This rather smacks of 'make it be' where the nuts and bolts of getting this job done properly are probably either broken or simply not there. Good luck in your efforts to find anybody in that organisation who has empathy and understands what you are talking about, realises that there is a real problem and has any knowledge and ability (both professionally and financially) to meaningfully change things.

As others have said - this is one of the primary storefronts of the transport service. Retailers don't allow their marketing materials to be presented by people who haven't got a clue what they're doing, so why as an industry should we?

So why has the (commercial) industry been so bad at these marketing materials in the last 40 or more years, constantly trying to offload the expense and hassle onto third parties (been forced to do so in some cases because the standard has been so bad) plus failed (with a few exceptions) to identify and train new staff in the knowledge? The chickens have come home to roost. So many people have forgotten how to use buses, or more likely have never known, don't use them now and it is from this pool that both bus companies and LTAs are now drawing their staff, both management and administration. As an activity in a Local Authority, public transport probably occupies a more difficult place than waste management - at least there is an understanding that waste management is necessary for everyone, whereas buses are pretty much only for the losers without cars (no insult intended to the few exceptions!). I don't see retailers expecting their marketing to be done by a Local Authority either......

When I see Directors, of either LTAs or Bus Companies, coming to work by bus (preferably with at least one change) and making unfamiliar journeys by bus during their work and leisure times, then I know we'll start seeing some improvements. Won't hold my breath.

 

[Tetchytyke]

My point is that they do not appear to have bern equipped to receive tracking data, no matter what the data quality. They appear to be just 'dumb' pre-programmed screens.

Having not been to the new Halifax bus station I'm unsure what displays you're referring to. But in all the other Metro bus stations the departure boards- both at the stand and at the entrance- do contain real time information. The big board in the Interchange in Bradford always listed the buses at 'x minutes', which was from live tracking information. The only issue- and a longstanding one- was that the displays would revert to listing the timetable if no bus was tracking.

 

[Somewhere]

Transport for London are pretty bad. And they must have a massive budget for it

 

[JKP]

I'm fairly certain that it's Arriva and they do update their timetables. The health and safety issue isn't as bad as you fear. However, it does take time and hence why I'm less bothered about having route numbers on bus stop flags.

As a resident I think Dorset is terrible and Berwick was awful as a visitor.

The problem comes when multiple operators are on the same route but only post their own timetables at the stop.

I was at Wareham station the other day and arrived to find the 40 just pulling away. While looking at the timetable at the stop considering my options, another one turned up unexpectedly, X35 or something to Swanage via Harmans Cross, gets there before the 40!

Oh yes, when I got back I looked about the bus shelter and sure enough there’s a second timetable to read from the other operator which you have to mentally interleave to get the picture.

There are no route numbers on bus stop flags in the Scottish Borders. There are a handful of locations where the flags show the destination of buses serving that stop.

Why was Berwick awful? Something to do with a separate timetable entry for each route number? The displays as far as I know are produced by Nexus in Newcastle upon Tyne.

 

[RT4038]

Transport for London are pretty bad. And they must have a massive budget for it

Which goes to show that, although budget is a factor in some Local Authorities, the issues go much deeper than that.

 

[WAB]

Which goes to show that, although budget is a factor in some Local Authorities, the issues go much deeper than that.

Well London doesn’t really need publicity in the same way - you can generally just turn up and put your journey into Google maps, and you’ll be fine.

 

[PeterC]

Well London doesn’t really need publicity in the same way - you can generally just turn up and put your journey into Google maps, and you’ll be fine.

London could do better but i have always been able to find my stop in a town centre which is more than can be said for many Home Counties locations.

 

[RT4038]

Interesting you say about BODS data being constructed for driver/admin ease rather than marketing. Some of this may be down to the fact BODS is meant to match the registered service rather than be pretty. BODS I think was brought in to assist in enforcement of reliability more than it was brought in for providing accurate information for passengers. As such, the data is meant to be the same as registration as this is easier for the traffic commissioner/enforcement to check relaibility. The end aim is meant to be linking the registration and BODS too in an attempt to reduce duplicate tasks, so again, this won't help with the aim of pretty data. The only saving grace is that some web/journey planning developers are quite good as making messy data into pretty (such as Bustimes.org which does it's best with the data it's given).

A rather fatal flaw, I would suggest. That the presentation of the ' one source' of timetable/route information could be prioritised towards legal compliance and enforcement, and their administration/scheduling systems, rather than marketing and the convenience of the customers/potential customers rather says it all! That the industry have acquiesced, often actively encouraged, such a state of affairs just shows how far their management / owners are away from the nuts and bolts business on the ground. As for complaining that Local Authority staff are not of sufficient calibre to understand the public transport product (and apparently neither are the Traffic Commissioners/ enforcement staff), much of bus company management need to be examining their own navels when it comes to data accuracy and understanding their products and how to explain to their potential customers where the buses go and at what times.

We should all just accept it because it's the easiest thing to do. They know best and you shall never question them. Any and all attempts to hold these people accountable just results in councils refusing to speak to you as you are a nobody.

Unfortunately, judging by the tone of your posts on this forum, this does not surprise me ever so much.