Would Closed Rail Links In England Reopen?

[RT4038]

Not a great look for a business that will really have to up its game in terms of being an environmentally-responsible company over the coming years.

The customers could arrive by train (at Grosmont) or by bus (at Pickering or Whitby). If more did, no doubt there would be even more buses and trains to choose from. It is they who choose not to be environmentally responsible, not the company, and it is they who will have to 'up their game', if they can be bothered.

 

[zwk500]

No, as neither part of the national network nor the NYMR. The formation is blocked, the Heritage line won't have the funding to get through Pickering and the National network link would cost a fortune for very modest return.

 

[Halifaxlad]

No, as neither part of the national network nor the NYMR. The formation is blocked, the Heritage line won't have the funding to get through Pickering and the National network link would cost a fortune for very modest return.

Why does it have to connect to the existing NYMR ?

The poster said Pickering whilst he/she may have indicated a desire to run a service from Malton to Whitby I think we should take this thread based upon what it says.

The trackbed is fairly intated up to about a 1km just before the old Pickering station that is now part of the NYMR.


The first 350 meters from where the junction used to be at Malton has almagmated with the adjacent fields but for the 5km after that the trackbed is clearly seperated after that it is pretty much almagmated with the fields. Even if you went as far as you can I think the only major problem would be some of the local roads in particular the A169 as I suspect when the line was there that it would have been a level crossing.

Personally I think it would be great if it was reinstated as a single line track with a parkway station in Pickering, that way I could go to Whitby without having to go via Middlesborough!

 

[zwk500]

Why does it have to connect to the existing NYMR ?

A national network link wouldn't, and I didn't say it would. However a NYMR would require to, or they'd need a separate engine shed and sidings etc.

The poster said Pickering whilst he/she may have indicated a desire to run a service from Malton to Whitby I think we should take this thread based upon what it says.

The trackbed is fairly intated up to about a 1km just before the old Pickering station that is now part of the NYMR.

The first 350 meters from where the junction used to be at Malton has almagmated with the adjacent fields but for the 5km after that the trackbed is clearly seperated after that it is pretty much almagmated with the fields. Even if you went as far as you can I think the only major problem would be some of the local roads in particular the A169 as I suspect when the line was there that it would have been a level crossing

No it isn't, the trackbed is blocked at the Black Bull, about 2km away from Pickering. Then the closest you can actually get to Pickering is out on the back of Malton Road or Outgang Road.

 

[Class08Shunter]

The only way I could ever see the Malton-Pickering route being restored would be as a commercial concern. In theory one could open a new station, 'Pickering South' (as its name implies, just south of where the town's built-up area ends) thus avoiding the unrealistc prospect of attempting to re-build a line into Pickering town centre.

The track bed from Rillington to south of Pickering seems to be surprisingly intact or at least un-built on and it is almost completely flat with no structural challenges. It would be a candidate for a 'Very Light Rail' shuttle service from Malton using a Parry People Mover or similar light traction, with single track and a very basic station at Pickering South.

This in itself would obviously benefit the NYMR as it would hugely improve public transport from York to Pickering.

Building Pickering South would be a good idea. But they could make a rail link from Pickering to Pickering South so the NYMR can run trains from Pickering to Malton without other trains running on their tracks as other trains would terminate at Pickering South.

 

[YorksLad12]

I was going to suggest opening the line from Pickering to Seamer and then you could run steam trains from Scarbourough to Whitby, but that seems a bit extreme, even for this forum

 

[Class08Shunter]

I was going to suggest opening the line from Pickering to Seamer and then you could run steam trains from Scarbourough to Whitby, but that seems a bit extreme, even for this forum

Wouldn't reopening the Whitby to Scarborough line be quicker? So the NYMR could do trains from Pickering to Whitby then go to scarborough? I don't know if that's quicker or not.

 

[Harvester]

Was promted to look up the Pickering-Seamer route and was surprised to find that the Mill Lane Junction-Thornton Dale section survived for freight traffic until 1963. If the line was to reopen (theoretically) the same issues exist south of Pickering station for through running (ie blocked trackbed Pickering station to Mill Lane Junction).

 

[Class08Shunter]

Was promted to look up the Pickering-Seamer route and was surprised to find that the Mill Lane Junction-Thornton Dale section survived for freight traffic until 1963. If the line was to reopen (theoretically) the same issues exist south of Pickering station for through running (ie blocked trackbed Pickering station to Mill Lane Junction).

It would mean that the big building near the engine shed would have to be demolished.

 

[Trainfan344]

If Pickering to Malton was to ever reopen, a line that goes from Malton, bending around and heading over towards Kirby Misperton for a station there before arriving into a Pickering South station opposite Swallowtails glamping would surely be a better route.

I'd also ensure Pickering South was a Multi modal interchange with local buses and a designated bus route timed to meet trains from Malton that runs a circular route to Pickering Market Place, since it's all fantasy these would be electric buses too.

 

[Class08Shunter]

If Pickering to Malton was to ever reopen, a line that goes from Malton, bending around and heading over towards Kirby Misperton for a station there before arriving into a Pickering South station opposite Swallowtails glamping would surely be a better route.

I'd also ensure Pickering South was a Multi modal interchange with local buses and a designated bus route timed to meet trains from Malton that runs a circular route to Pickering Market Place, since it's all fantasy these would be electric buses too.

Wouldn't demolishing a few buildings on the original route and laying track on the original trackbed be a bit cheaper than building a new route?

 

[zwk500]

Wouldn't reopening the Whitby to Scarborough line be quicker? So the NYMR could do trains from Pickering to Whitby then go to scarborough? I don't know if that's quicker or not.

This line crossed the Whitby line on that massive viaduct, so you'd need to have a very steep curve to gain the route.

Wouldn't demolishing a few buildings on the original route and laying track on the original trackbed be a bit cheaper than building a new route?

If you can buy the houses off the owners normally, maybe. But if they don't want to move (and remember it only needs 1 person to refuse and the whole thing's scuppered, so it's not like the nail houses you get in China), then trying to get a compulsory purchase order is very expensive.

 

[Kingston Dan]

If Pickering to Malton was to ever reopen, a line that goes from Malton, bending around and heading over towards Kirby Misperton for a station there before arriving into a Pickering South station opposite Swallowtails glamping would surely be a better route.

I'd also ensure Pickering South was a Multi modal interchange with local buses and a designated bus route timed to meet trains from Malton that runs a circular route to Pickering Market Place, since it's all fantasy these would be electric buses too.

I was about to post that. Flamingoland at Kirkby Misperton is one of the busiest theme parks in the UK and given the flat landscape in the area there's not going to be much in the cost of building a new alignment compared with the original (assuming the railway no longer owns the original alignment).

 

[Class08Shunter]

I wonder how many platforms would Pickering South have?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I wonder how many platforms would Pickering South have?

None, because realistically isn't ever going to happen!

 

[zwk500]

I wonder how many platforms would Pickering South have?

Why would it possibly need more than one?

 

[mike57]

I dont think there will be any reopenings, the NYMR have already said they are not interested in attempting it, and a NR branch for a town of less than 7000 thats about 7 miles long just will not happen. Even if a stop for Flamingoland could be accomplished outside summer weekends I dont see that there would be sufficent passenger numbers to justify it even if heavily subsidised.

Even if a huge sum of money was made available to deliver reopenings I cant see this route even being in the top 20, locally routes such as Beverley - York would surely score higher in any reopening stakes.

 

[Class08Shunter]

None, because realistically isn't ever going to happen!

I wish the Pickering to Malton line could be reopened.

 

[Brubulus]

I dont think there will be any reopenings, the NYMR have already said they are not interested in attempting it, and a NR branch for a town of less than 7000 thats about 7 miles long just will not happen. Even if a stop for Flamingoland could be accomplished outside summer weekends I dont see that there would be sufficent passenger numbers to justify it even if heavily subsidised.

Even if a huge sum of money was made available to deliver reopenings I cant see this route even being in the top 20, locally routes such as Beverley - York would surely score higher in any reopening stakes.

You seem to be forgetting the potential for transporting the significant numbers of tourists from the south of England to whitby via this route, especially if direct trains from London were sent to whitby via York and Pickering. I can see it getting usage numbers easily enough to justify reopening in new demand for long distance trains.

 

[zwk500]

You seem to be forgetting the potential for transporting the significant numbers of tourists from the south of England to whitby via this route, especially if direct trains from London were sent to whitby via York and Pickering. I can see it getting usage numbers easily enough to justify reopening in new demand for long distance trains.

How many people currently visit Whitby per year, and how much suppressed demand do you think there is?

 

[Brubulus]

How many people currently visit Whitby per year, and how much suppressed demand do you think there is?

In 2021 144,246 people visited whitby Abbey, and the NYMR had 300,000 users. The only specific tourist numbers are for the wider area at 1.4 million. Flamingo Land had 900,000 visitors in 2021. I would say half a million annual users for the line if advertised and run properly.

 

[tbtc]

You seem to be forgetting the potential for transporting the significant numbers of tourists from the south of England to whitby via this route, especially if direct trains from London were sent to whitby via York and Pickering. I can see it getting usage numbers easily enough to justify reopening in new demand for long distance trains.

The idea behind this thread is clearly never going to happen, but if there was a line from the York - Scarborough route to Whitby then I think that usage of the current Scarborough services is probably a good benchmark (historically an hourly DMU to Leeds/ Manchester, nothing as fancy as Direct London trains - IIRC the token EMT/EMR summer services were only from Leicester?)

Feels like the Skipton situation, where supporters of the proposals to re-open the old Colne route suggest it could support two trains an hour from Leeds to Manchester Airport etc, where the Carlisle route survived and only gets a Sprinter every couple of hours from Leeds up the S&C (if BR had closed the route in the 1980s as planned then doubtless supporters would today be claiming Ribblehead would have regular London - Glasgow expresses and a frequent local service of only it had survived, plus Avanti drags)

 

[Class08Shunter]

You seem to be forgetting the potential for transporting the significant numbers of tourists from the south of England to whitby via this route, especially if direct trains from London were sent to whitby via York and Pickering. I can see it getting usage numbers easily enough to justify reopening in new demand for long distance trains.

I think the furthest a train would go from Whitby via Pickering is York. But I'm sure there would be a lot of people coming from London travelling to Whitby.

 

[zwk500]

I think the furthest a train would go from Whitby via Pickering is York.

Indeed. The furthest any train from Pickering will get is York as well.

especially if direct trains from London were sent to whitby via York and Pickering. I can see it getting usage numbers easily enough to justify reopening in new demand for long distance trains.

Are you suggesting closing the NYMR to rebuild the line to mainline standard?

 

[Class08Shunter]

If the Pickering to Malton line was reopened with a link from Pickering to Pickering South the NYMR and Network Rail could share the cost. For example, Network Rail would pay the NYMR if there was excursions and the NYMR would pay Network Rail to run from Pickering to Malton.

 

[zwk500]

If the Pickering to Malton line was reopened with a link from Pickering to Pickering South the NYMR and Network Rail could share the cost.

There's so much optimism in this thread I feel slightly bad bringing even a hint of reality to it, but... No. NR will not be paying for a tramway through Pickering. Not a chance in heaven or hell. The most they will do is pay to install signalling at the end of their line to permit an NYMR link to connect in.
For the NYMR it may be beneficial, but their fundraising operations are limited and probably need to be more focused on their current infrastructure than an extension being used only a dozen times a year, at best.

For example, Network Rail would pay the NYMR if there was excursions and the NYMR would pay Network Rail to run from Pickering to Malton.

NYMR pay NR to run trains over their metals, but the fee NR is allowed to charge a railtour operator is very limited and would not cover the cost of a tramway through Pickering in 100 years. NR don't run trains, so wouldn't be paying NYMR anything. The Tour operator (West Coast, LSL or DB) would pay NYMR for the excursion fee.

As a side note to this dicussion, York to Grosmont via Middlesbrough is 2h15 minutes (1hr by TPE 185 York-Mid with 4 stops and 1h15 Mid-Grosmont by Northern Sprinter). Non Stop on the fast leg probably brings the journey down by 10 mins (2.5 mins a stop), could maybe knock another 5 off with an Electric Azuma so 2h total if a good path.
NYMR timetable Pickering-Grosmont is 1h05. Add York-Malton 25m and Malton-Pickering (c.10m) for 1h40 and the value just isn't there for either group. 35 minutes saving for a Tour is poor value for a link that will easily cost >£100m (The borders railway, Edinburgh-Tweedback, 35 miles long with largely intact trackbed cost £294m in 2015. 7 stations vs 1, but inflation will make up for that).

This is before you give the performance team a heart attack and the planning team a headache by having a train run onto somebody else's network and then back onto NR metals to get to Whitby. Not impossible, but certainly more pain than it's worth.

 

[YorksLad12]

Wouldn't reopening the Whitby to Scarborough line be quicker? So the NYMR could do trains from Pickering to Whitby then go to scarborough? I don't know if that's quicker or not.

You'd have to reverse twice; heading north, once outside Scarborough before ploughing through Sainsbury's (and all of the other built-up areas on the former alignment), then at Whitby West Cliff to curve into Whitby. It would be one heck of a scenic route though! Pickering-Seamer has two problems; Pickering and Forge Valley. Four, if you count no money and no desire to reopen...

 

[Class08Shunter]

There's so much optimism in this thread I feel slightly bad bringing even a hint of reality to it, but... No. NR will not be paying for a tramway through Pickering. Not a chance in heaven or hell. The most they will do is pay to install signalling at the end of their line to permit an NYMR link to connect in.
For the NYMR it may be beneficial, but their fundraising operations are limited and probably need to be more focused on their current infrastructure than an extension being used only a dozen times a year, at best.

NYMR pay NR to run trains over their metals, but the fee NR is allowed to charge a railtour operator is very limited and would not cover the cost of a tramway through Pickering in 100 years. NR don't run trains, so wouldn't be paying NYMR anything. The Tour operator (West Coast, LSL or DB) would pay NYMR for the excursion fee.

As a side note to this dicussion, York to Grosmont via Middlesbrough is 2h15 minutes (1hr by TPE 185 York-Mid with 4 stops and 1h15 Mid-Grosmont by Northern Sprinter). Non Stop on the fast leg probably brings the journey down by 10 mins (2.5 mins a stop), could maybe knock another 5 off with an Electric Azuma so 2h total if a good path.
NYMR timetable Pickering-Grosmont is 1h05. Add York-Malton 25m and Malton-Pickering (c.10m) for 1h40 and the value just isn't there for either group. 35 minutes saving for a Tour is poor value for a link that will easily cost >£100m (The borders railway, Edinburgh-Tweedback, 35 miles long with largely intact trackbed cost £294m in 2015. 7 stations vs 1, but inflation will make up for that).

This is before you give the performance team a heart attack and the planning team a headache by having a train run onto somebody else's network and then back onto NR metals to get to Whitby. Not impossible, but certainly more pain than it's worth.

Would Network Rail pay the NYMR if they ran test trains from Malton to Pickering?

 

[zwk500]

Would Network Rail pay the NYMR if they ran test trains from Malton to Pickering?

Slightly confused which way you're asking, so I'll answer both:

If Malton-Pickering is NR Track, NYMR won't be contracted to operate NR's test trains, because they don't have the required traction or route knowledge and it's not going to be economic to get it. NR would schedule the test train circuits to do Malton-Pickering as part of the existing circuits via Scarborough.
If Malton-Pickering were to be NYMR tracks, NR wouldn't be scheduling test trains over it unless the NYMR paid NR for the use of their trains. I'm not aware of any heritage railway running test trains, even those with mainline connections. The odd tamper but nothing more.

 

[Harvester]

You'd have to reverse twice; heading north, once outside Scarborough before ploughing through Sainsbury's (and all of the other built-up areas on the former alignment), then at Whitby West Cliff to curve into Whitby. It would be one heck of a scenic route though! Pickering-Seamer has two problems; Pickering and Forge Valley. Four, if you count no money and no desire to reopen...

There would be the awkward problem of Falsgrave tunnel before even reaching Sainsburys. IIRC it was filled in before being bricked up at the portals. The cost of reopening the Scarborough to Whitby coast line would be enormous: - hundreds of millions!