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Would facial recognition software help with fare evasion/false details given etc?

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Sm5

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mods note - split from this thread

This is where facial recognition AI software would help.

A product like clearview with a global database of faces would not only eliminate the person framed, but potentially identify who the perpertrator was.


Recording sound would also corroborate it.
 
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AlbertBeale

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This is where facial recognition AI software would help.

A product like clearview with a global database of faces would not only eliminate the person framed, but potentially identify who the perpertrator was.


Recording sound would also corroborate it.

A "global database of faces" would not only "eliminate the person framed", it would also take us nearer to the hellish vision of full-on (or even-fuller-on) surveillance capitalism and full-on state control of the minutiae of life, in the way being scarily developed by the CPC.
 

Tetchytyke

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A product like clearview with a global database of faces would not only eliminate the person framed
AI has huge problems in discerning the faces of people of colour, among other things. So it would actually make things worse.
 

laseandre

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This is where facial recognition AI software would help.

A product like clearview with a global database of faces would not only eliminate the person framed, but potentially identify who the perpertrator was.


Recording sound would also corroborate it.
And does everyone travelling on the railway agree to their faces being shoved into a huge AI recognition database? I think not...
 

philthetube

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A "global database of faces" would not only "eliminate the person framed", it would also take us nearer to the hellish vision of full-on (or even-fuller-on) surveillance capitalism and full-on state control of the minutiae of life, in the way being scarily developed by the CPC.
That wouldn't have to be done, just load in the faces that you are looking for and when oner of those crops up, bingo
 

johnny_t

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This is where facial recognition AI software would help.

A product like clearview with a global database of faces would not only eliminate the person framed, but potentially identify who the perpertrator was.


Recording sound would also corroborate it.

Tangential to the discussion, I know, but I took part in the London Marathon on Sunday and, to get your photos of the event, you had to take a selfie and its facial recognition did the rest. Bearing in mind that 50,000 people were taking part, it instantly came up with 122 pictures, all of which were me. These included far out pictures of me with a tiny face in a crowd, part-obscured ones, pictures where I looked like a Shar-Pei being taken for a ride in a convertible and some just normal, nice pictures.

Just for fun, we also tried using a selfie of my wife, who didn't take part, and it came up with no false positives at all.

TL:DR - Facial recognition technology is far, far more advanced than any of us 'normals' could ever imagine...
 

WesternLancer

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Tangential to the discussion, I know, but I took part in the London Marathon on Sunday and, to get your photos of the event, you had to take a selfie and its facial recognition did the rest. Bearing in mind that 50,000 people were taking part, it instantly came up with 122 pictures, all of which were me. These included far out pictures of me with a tiny face in a crowd, part-obscured ones, pictures where I looked like a Shar-Pei being taken for a ride in a convertible and some just normal, nice pictures.

Just for fun, we also tried using a selfie of my wife, who didn't take part, and it came up with no false positives at all.

TL:DR - Facial recognition technology is far, far more advanced than any of us 'normals' could ever imagine...
Meanwhile the other eve my friend, out with her daughter, demonstrated to me how the facial recognition on her i-phone recognised her daughter as her allowing access to the phone.....given they live in the same house this would mean easy access to the phone by her daughter and it would seem then not many steps away from stuff like her on line access to lots of important things.

Obv they are related and have some similarities in how they look, but it could not seem to recognise a difference in age of 30+ years..

Which makes me wonder if it is far cruder than the advocates of the technology would like us to think ;)
 

Benjwri

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Meanwhile the other eve my friend, out with her daughter, demonstrated to me how the facial recognition on her i-phone recognised her daughter as her allowing access to the phone.....given they live in the same house this would mean easy access to the phone by her daughter and it would seem then not many steps away from stuff like her on line access to lots of important things.

Obv they are related and have some similarities in how they look, but it could not seem to recognise a difference in age of 30+ years..

Which makes me wonder if it is far cruder than the advocates of the technology would like us to think ;)
Entirely different technology. Facial recognition is looking for a variety of factors, and usually looks at the overall picture of someone’s face.

FaceID on an iPhone is looking for key indicators across the face, in specific places, rather than the overall face. It should also be noted if your friends daughter often unlocks her phone, if someone fails a Face ID unlock, then uses the password when they look similar it will learn their face, assuming their face is just changing with time.

It’s a rough analogy but it’s a bit like saying being given a passport photo of two people and working out if they’re the same person, and trying to pick someone out from a crowd using a passport photo are the same thing.
 

WesternLancer

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Entirely different technology. Facial recognition is looking for a variety of factors, and usually looks at the overall picture of someone’s face.

FaceID on an iPhone is looking for key indicators across the face, in specific places, rather than the overall face. It should also be noted if your friends daughter often unlocks her phone, if someone fails a Face ID unlock, then uses the password when they look similar it will learn their face, assuming their face is just changing with time.

It’s a rough analogy but it’s a bit like saying being given a passport photo of two people and working out if they’re the same person, and trying to pick someone out from a crowd using a passport photo are the same thing.
Thanks - interesting to read.
 

Pigeon

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Suggested authors reading list:

George Orwell
Charles Stross
Cory Doctorow

...that'll do for starters; a full list would take weeks to type.

It baffles me entirely how after decades of novelists predicting the emergence of dystopian situations from the use of advanced universal electronic surveillance systems, we are now seeing those predictions come true, as technology becomes able to build those systems - and yet not only are people generally not up in arms about it, we still get people proposing things like this and seriously thinking it's a good idea. It's not. It's evil, and there is no shortage of detailed explanation of why this is so from people who can explain it far better than I ever could.
 

Fleetmaster

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And does everyone travelling on the railway agree to their faces being shoved into a huge AI recognition database? I think not...
That have no clue what they're signing up to.

Nobody reads the small print. Nobody.

Matalan etc have been snapping your mugs for years, and you never knew. Check the (teeny tiny) signs, and the law. Shoplifters have a hard time of it these days.
 

Fleetmaster

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Suggested authors reading list:

George Orwell
Charles Stross
Cory Doctorow

...that'll do for starters; a full list would take weeks to type.

It baffles me entirely how after decades of novelists predicting the emergence of dystopian situations from the use of advanced universal electronic surveillance systems, we are now seeing those predictions come true, as technology becomes able to build those systems - and yet not only are people generally not up in arms about it, we still get people proposing things like this and seriously thinking it's a good idea. It's not. It's evil, and there is no shortage of detailed explanation of why this is so from people who can explain it far better than I ever could.
The same was said about cctv. There would be riots if you banned it now.
 

Fleetmaster

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Ahem...8-)


Universally unpopular. Entirely irrelevant.

It's coming, whatever people think.
 

Sm5

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I still think theres too much hype about this.

old days, criminal does a crime, victims or witnesses used to do photo fit analysis.. remeber those back and white composite pictures made from sets of hair, eyes, glasses, chins etc.

Then the police went off looking, needing the public and months of leads.

Today they can get a cctv image and go looking, but its still months.

Why the fear of AI doing the looking instead of the army of police officers ?
The only thing that changes is the speed and quality of the search… they could have a selection of leads in minutes.
Whats more AI can scan multiple sources of data (ie lots of cctvs) and start eliminating those candidates down to a selective few very quickly.

At the end of it, there will still be a human making the decision… The Minority Report is just a sci fi film.

Comparing a facial image on cctv to passport / driving licence records isnt hard. You scan your face at airports already, you know thats being compared to several domestic and international databases already.

At the end of the day it should be a deterrant, given the amount of drunks, abusive language etc that goes on, if people know they cant just “blag” it, if someone finds them pdq after the event.

I dont mind being filmed or scanned when out, ive nothing to hide, but I do come across way too many times when someone should consider their actions.
 

Bletchleyite

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Quite simply because it's fine when the Government and Police can be trusted, but recent actions by both have proven that for certain demographics that that is far from the case.
 

Sm5

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Quite simply because it's fine when the Government and Police can be trusted, but recent actions by both have proven that for certain demographics that that is far from the case.
But not trusted to do what ?

AI isnt Judge Dredd or Robocop, its not going to come through the roof of kings cross and grab someone, though to the criminal it may feel like that if they find themselves surrounded an hour or after committing a crime in York.
its going to look more like this..


even thats flawed, one ended up in an indoor pond before now.

its an information tool. A human is going to use it like any other tool.
If theres a threat here, its to Googles search engine, as it will likely replace it. Thats why they are spending millions on ensuring they have an AI engine.

If AI finds a candidate, the legal evidential process is still needed to convict (Ie dna, witnesses etc).

The difference should be faster and more accurate search, retrieval & relevence. It will however rely on much greater levels of data integration than we have today and use “thought”* to model, where as Google today can only share what it finds.

it has all kinds of potential, in medical, farming, commercial, financial etc.

A lot of fear is about military, but even the worst dictator is going to want their own control over the system, to ensure it doesn't turn against them.

AI itself has a weakness for power.. not control, but energy. Its weakness.. if AI gets ahead of itself, stop the flow of electrons by flipping the “off” switch on the wall.

* thought today is structured code.. if x=1 then A else B etc.. AI will be able to adjust, ie “Whatif“ and use a wider range of variables, re-evaluate and share its learnings.

For example..

Remove all ticket barriers, all ticket machines.
People facial register, and link credit card details.
Flow of travel and billing is automatic, including any adjustments.

TTIs now get advance notification to focus on mis-matches, unregistered and notified of known offenders.
Trainseats could be allocated automatically, re-route/notifications for late cancelled could be calculated automatically.

Further, AI could reccomend which stations to skip/short terminate based on loadings, rather than a controller making the same decision. It may also be able to reccomend changes to timetabling, load factors etc, based not just on revenue.


it would mean the end of TFLs Medium sized business that is penalty fares collection, but isnt that the morally right thing it should be… ? to me tfl seeking to preserve that PF revenue business model is a bigger threat.
 
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