Would you consider these behaviours to be abuse of an ENCTS pass?

[PTR 444]

ENCTS passes allow the elderly and disabled to receive free bus travel within their home nation, however such a scheme is open to abuse from people attempting to save money on life’s everyday essentials. Some of the behaviours listed below could be attempted by anyone regardless of whether they have an ENCTS pass or not, however they are more attractive to those with a pass as the saving is greater. I assume some of the below behaviours will be far more severe than others, but I’d be interested to find out which of the following you consider to be ENCTS abuse:

• Making a free bus journey as part of a leg of a longer journey to reduce the overall cost. For example, catching a bus from Poole to Christchurch then the train from there to Southampton rather than going by train the whole way
• Spending time on the bus simply to charge one’s phone
• Using a night bus as a means of overnight accommodation
• Using a long bus journey as a venue for a picnic social with friends on a rainy day
• Befriending people at bus stops and letting them get free rides with you on a companion ENCTS pass
• Letting a friend borrow an ENCTS pass so they can get a free ride

 

[yorkie]

The first one is totally legit and unquestionably acceptable, however Letting a friend or relative borrow an ENCTS pass so they can get a free ride is a criminal act. The others are subjective.

 

[Bayum]

I’m not sure how some of these are ‘abusing’ the ENCTS. If someone gets bus travel for free and can make the journey on a bus without paying for the train… sensible I’d say.

 

[PTR 444]

I’m not sure how some of these are ‘abusing’ the ENCTS. If someone gets bus travel for free and can make the journey on a bus without paying for the train… sensible I’d say.

I personally don’t see an issue with it either, although from another point of view I guess ENCTS use could be seen as detrimental to the railway if it abstracts revenue from their services. I imagine if ENCTS didn’t exist, there would be a lot more over 60s and disabled people using local rail services than there are now.

 

[Geordie driver]

Other than letting someone else use your pass the rest are fine, I have withdrawn passes in the past when I knew it didn't belong to the person trying to use it.

Anyone travelling on the bus just to save money by charging their phone wants their head examined, or at least a basic lesson in maths.

 

[GusB]

ENCTS passes allow the elderly and disabled to receive free bus travel within their home nation

An ENCTS pass wouldn't allow me free travel within my home nation, nor anyone who lives in Wales or Northern Ireland!

 

[joncombe]

I've seen them used for essentially a free ferry crossing on the Sandbanks ferry on the Bournemouth to Swanage no 50 where a group of pensioners get on the bus at the ferry slipway at Sandbanks and off again at the first stop afterwards (the bus crosses on the ferry). The bus probably drives less than 100 metres with them on board. Quite common in the summer because then they don't have to pay for the ferry! Within the rules of course but some may consider this abuse.

 

[Martin2013]

Traveling on a bus to charge your phone- admittedly I had to do this myself during lockdown once or twice when being out and about for 'essential' work as my phone ran out of juice and a bus was the only place I could charge it up.

Its very worrying if pensioners are indeed using overnight services as a means of overnight accommodation. Wasn't there a lady not too long ago who was having to ride round on buses all day due to the cost of heating bills and Boris Johnson's response was to say he was proud that him and his government had given the lady the bus pass?

I remember from my time working in a Concessionary Travelcard Office that someone had their compamion pass confiscated for abusing it. From memory they were boarding a route with premium fares, charging passengers to be their companion and therefore have a cheaper fare and then getting off a few stops down before repeating.

 

[scosutsut]

If you are entitled to travel by bus for free then any form of that short of handing your pass out is fair game by my book.

If it's being used as accomodation or a heating/charging facility it just shows you how far as a society we have fallen that people are forced to that.

 

[Snow1964]

Wonder why the Op put pass holder over 60. My understanding is the English National pass is from state pension age (currently 66, but due to go up)

I know the mayor Khan likes to spend others money and has a 60+ pass, but it is not ECNTS

 

[Gloster]

Wonder why the Op put pass holder over 60. My understanding is the English National pass is from state pension age (currently 66, but due to go up)

Exactly. Us mugs who live in England have to wait until we hit pension age (currently 66, although it may be going up), but in Scotland, Wales and (I think) Northern Ireland it is 60. In London there is an over-60s Oyster, but I am not sure if that is free or reduced price travel.

 

[swt_passenger]

Exactly. Us mugs who live in England have to wait until we hit pension age (currently 66, although it may be going up), but in Scotland, Wales and (I think) Northern Ireland it is 60. In London there is an over-60s Oyster, but I am not sure if that is free or reduced price travel.

There are two different schemes in London, one for people 60-65 (known as a 60+ London Oyster photocard) and another for 66+ (known as a Freedom Pass). It’s only the latter card that also functions as an ENTCS national card.

 

[danm14]

Letting a friend borrow the pass is a criminal offence and clearly abuse.

Befriending people at bus stops and taking them as your companion is a grey area. My view is that it should be tolerated as the alternative (abolishing companion entitlement entirely or restricting this to one specified person) would have a disproportionate impact on those who genuinely need to take a companion on some or all trips. Likewise making a journey you wouldn't otherwise make for the sole purpose of allowing someone to travel with you for free.

Taking a bus solely to charge your phone or to meet friends, or using a night bus to avoid rough sleeping, is not abuse. I would hope that they would have the decency if at all possible not do this on busy buses where genuine travelling passengers would be left standing or refused carriage as a result - but I would not support any attempt to enforce this as I fear it would eventually morph into an expectation, or even a requirement, that passholders will alight the bus in the middle of nowhere if the bus is full and a fare-paying passenger wishes to board.

Making a free bus journey as part of a longer journey is using the card as it is intended to be used.

 

[Roger1973]

Agree with others - the only 'abuse' here would be lending a pass to someone else who's not eligible.

Concessionary travel rules do not include conditions on what journey purpose/s they may be used for, just who by, at what times, and to some extent, on what services. If someone wants to make a journey by one or more bus journeys rather than a quicker train journey, either for financial reasons, or because they find getting on and off trains difficult due to their mobility, then there's nothing in the spirit or letter of the rules against that.

How would you enforce an 'is your journey really necessary?' rule?

The guidance / rules round reimbursement to bus operators have always included a factor for 'generated travel' on the expectation that people with discounted or free travel will make more bus journeys than they would have made if the scheme did not exist.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I've seen them used for essentially a free ferry crossing on the Sandbanks ferry on the Bournemouth to Swanage no 50 where a group of pensioners get on the bus at the ferry slipway at Sandbanks and off again at the first stop afterwards (the bus crosses on the ferry). The bus probably drives less than 100 metres with them on board. Quite common in the summer because then they don't have to pay for the ferry! Within the rules of course but some may consider this abuse.

Saving themselves a grand total of £1 each, as that is the toll for pedestrians from Sandbanks (north side) to the Studland peninsula (south side) - there's no toll for pedestrians heading the other way (from Studland / Shell Bay) on the ferry.

I guess if the bus turns up whilst you're waiting to cross on the chain ferry...

I know the mayor Khan likes to spend others money and has a 60+ pass, but it is not ECNTS

He hasn't personally got one as he's only 52! I guess he might have a free travel card, but he is the Chair of TfL afer all (both previous Mayors also took this position).

The 60+ Oyster card was actually introduced by the then Mayor Boris Johnson in 2012, following through with a campaign promise he made during the Mayoral election earlier that spring when he successfully sought re-election. His main opponent then was Ken Livingstone, who decided to mirror this promise in his campaign.

 

[Taunton]

He [London Mayor Khan] hasn't personally got one as he's only 52! I guess he might have a free travel card, but he is the Chair of TfL after all (both previous Mayors also took this position).

The 60+ Oyster card was actually introduced by the then Mayor Boris Johnson in 2012,

Mayor Khan is provided with a top-spec Range Rover which, to avoid being criticised as mayor expenses, is on the Met Police books. I understand he never uses TfL public transport.

And as we are speaking about both previous mayors ...

Boris of course extensively used his bicycle (to the slight chagrin of the rest of his staff going to meetings with him, trying to keep up!).

Ken Livingstone, the day after the 7/7 2005 Tube attacks, famously deliberately went to work the following morning, in front of the journalists, on the Underground (and continued to do so), showing the way to handle such, instead of cowering in an armoured vehicle.

 

[Gloster]

Mayor Khan is provided with a top-spec Range Rover which, to avoid being criticised as mayor expenses, is on the Met Police books. I understand he never uses TfL public transport.

Boris of course extensively used his bicycle (to the slight chagrin of the rest of his staff going to meetings with him, trying to keep up!).

I can’t blame him for not using public transport. Because there is a minority of the populace who seem to have a pathological loathing for him, he would be at risk of considerable violence and need a whole corps of bodyguards.

Was it Johnson who made a big thing about using a bike, but was accompanied by a government car with his redboxes? Or was that Cameron?

 

[GusB]

It doesn't matter which method of transport the Mayor of London uses - it's off-topic for this thread!

 

[neilmc]

The only positively wrong (i.e. criminal) use in the examples listed is to lend your pass to someone else. other than that it's just creative use of a facility.

I will often use my ENCTS pass when I don't really "need" to, to ensure the bus has a greater load, that the bus company gets some revenue and thus keeps my local service running.

 

[Deerfold]

I remember from my time working in a Concessionary Travelcard Office that someone had their compamion pass confiscated for abusing it. From memory they were boarding a route with premium fares, charging passengers to be their companion and therefore have a cheaper fare and then getting off a few stops down before repeating.

Of course that leaves the person on the bus without a valid ticket (but that relies on the bus driver remembering who boarded together or an inspection).

That and lending your pass are illegal.

I'd say making new friends at the bus stop is morally dubious but tricky to police. My wife's grandmother for a while had a companion card due to being legally blind. She was fine on her own to the nearest town and back but needed a companion for any longer distance journeys (usually me). She didn't take random strangers with her. On the occasions it wasn't me, it was usually someone with their own pass, anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd say making new friends at the bus stop is morally dubious but tricky to police. My wife's grandmother for a while had a companion card due to being legally blind. She was fine on her own to the nearest town and back but needed a companion for any longer distance journeys (usually me).

I'd say the number of people doing that is likely to be very low indeed. Partly because most people with a companion pass will need their companion, and partly based on the fact that people don't form random groups at stations to use GroupSave or Family/Network Railcard discounts of others (you may get it with football fans, but not just total randomers). That's just not very British, you'd have to talk to someone random!

By contrast, it definitely did happen in Germany with the Wochenendticket (weekend ticket). "Darf ich mitfahren?" (may I travel with you?)