Would you want to travel on staffless public transport?

[methethpropbut]

Context is probably important. City centre, reasonably crowded, frequent service? Probably okay. Late night, rural, empty service? Maybe not.

On the train safety part - there's an accident of note in Taichung, Taiwan just last year where automation seems to have played a big part in that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Taichung_crane_collapse
In a nutshell, crane falls onto track, stationary (driverless) train moves off as if nothing was wrong and crashes into the crane. There were other failures as well which led to the failure to detect an issue and suspend normal operations in a timely manner, but certainly if a driver was on board they'd have been able to detect something was wrong much faster and prevent the accident.

 

[LBMPSB]

If trains were completely Driverless, I would have no issue. Having seen the ATO in operation in the Thameslink Core Section and the safety inbuilt into the system, I would have no issues travelling on a staffless train. Travelling on GTR Thameslink 700s is virtually staffless anyway. Obviously Customer Information would need to be 100%, unlike now, even with a Driver, customers on a train not moving anywhere, often sit there for a long time without any information passed on to them. I have had to Tweet( now called Xing) GTR Thameslink to ask them to get their driver to tell customers something, even just to let them know they are still alive! The key is keeping customers informed, and unfortunately, all TOCs have a long way to go with this.

 

[birchesgreen]

The driver is very unlikely to leave the cab so its about the same as pressing an emergency button that goes to a call center or a nearby station

Maybe but there is the perception that they are around.

 

[Meerkat]

The driver is very unlikely to leave the cab so its about the same as pressing an emergency button that goes to a call center or a nearby station

They are directly in control of the train you are on, and most importantly they are nearby and almost definitely contactable - "ring the call centre" is not very reassuring.

 

[al78]

Lifts are staffless public transport. People get stuck in them occasionally but most people still use them. I don't see why horizontal transport would be any different.

Lifts are a lot simpler than horizontal transport, they are very restricted and each lift has exclusive use of its shaft. The worst that can happen is the cables snap and the lift plunges down but even then there exist emergency brakes to prevent a deadly encounter with the ground. If the lift breaks down they have an alarm button so even if there are no staff in the lift, there are people available somewhere to assist in getting people out of a failed lift.

Trains travel at high speed, have more ways of failing, are prone to weather related disruption amongst other things which at worst can require evacuation along a line with a high voltage third rail which can kill, can be populated with scum who will not think twice about duffing you up if you look at them the wrong way, and if you do have to share space with someone unpleasant, in a lift you are only there for a minute or so, not potentially hours, and a lift is extremely limited in where it can take you, so you won't need advice on which lift to get or where to change beyond looking at a notice somewhere, for the most part you get in and press the button for the floor you want, and if you get it wrong you can safely and easily switch to stairs.

 

[fandroid]

The automated lines on the Nuremberg metro not only have unstaffed trains, but unstaffed stations too! I have only ever travelled on those lines at busy times, but there never seemed to be any issues. However, a staff member at the Klinikum Nord, which is served by one of the lines, did tell me that she was uncomfortable with there being no driver on board.

 

[trainJam]

Lifts (One lift in section (or in rare twin lift examples two in a shaft) and there are lifts which do not call at all stations)

Doors can easily be held and most will readily open if sensor blocked so less risk of trap and drag. Lifts do not need a human to dispatch. There can be a mode after the sensors are blocked where the doors force close though. Usually, lifts do not need to stick to a frequent timetable. In the event of delay, get the other lift (if provided) or stairs/escalators (not an option for all though).

There are a greater number of variables on the railway. There are more doors, passengers and trains on the same landing/platform/call.

Currently, we require a human to dispatch trains (any arrangement of driver, guard, platform staff) on the scene to ensure that no one is trapped and people are well clear of the train (the 'yellow line' has been discussed in a recent thread). Would it be possible to remotely dispatch e.g. from a desk and CCTV?

Having staff on the scene can deter disruption caused by passenger interference e.g. obstructing the doors or standing too close to hold the train. For safety, without staff, I would assume an automated sensor system similar to a lift would need to be used, which I imagine could easily be abused unless there is a deterrent e.g. stricter bylaw enforcement. Anything in the Platform Edge Doors or on the wrong side of the yellow line means the service is halted until someone goes out to remove the obstruction/passenger.

In an evacuation situation, would passengers be willing to stay on a train with no staff? How long until staff come from a remote location to assist? Whilst the safety posters throughout the train tell passengers it is usually safer to stay onboard, would they listen to that?

The DLR has a PSA and is "guard only operation" so it is usually without a 'driver' ie person at front but not without staff.

 

[stuu]

Lifts (One lift in section (or in rare twin lift examples two in a shaft) and there are lifts which do not call at all stations)

Doors can easily be held and most will readily open if sensor blocked so less risk of trap and drag. Lifts do not need a human to dispatch. There can be a mode after the sensors are blocked where the doors force close though. Usually, lifts do not need to stick to a frequent timetable. In the event of delay, get the other lift (if provided) or stairs/escalators (not an option for all though).

There are a greater number of variables on the railway. There are more doors, passengers and trains on the same landing/platform/call.

Currently, we require a human to dispatch trains (any arrangement of driver, guard, platform staff) on the scene to ensure that no one is trapped and people are well clear of the train (the 'yellow line' has been discussed in a recent thread). Would it be possible to remotely dispatch e.g. from a desk and CCTV?

Having staff on the scene can deter disruption caused by passenger interference e.g. obstructing the doors or standing too close to hold the train. For safety, without staff, I would assume an automated sensor system similar to a lift would need to be used, which I imagine could easily be abused unless there is a deterrent e.g. stricter bylaw enforcement. Anything in the Platform Edge Doors or on the wrong side of the yellow line means the service is halted until someone goes out to remove the obstruction/passenger.

In an evacuation situation, would passengers be willing to stay on a train with no staff? How long until staff come from a remote location to assist? Whilst the safety posters throughout the train tell passengers it is usually safer to stay onboard, would they listen to that?

The DLR has a PSA and is "guard only operation" so it is usually without a 'driver' ie person at front but not without staff.

All of those issues have been resolved, there are dozens of fully automated metro lines in the world without any platform staff, and completely unstaffed stations. There's even a few in the UK

 

[PTR 444]

I have had to Tweet( now called Xing)

Pronounced as X-ing or Zing?

The latter rolls off the tongue better, but might sound too similar to a certain Chinese president.

 

[Bald Rick]

Currently, we require a human to dispatch trains (any arrangement of driver, guard, platform staff) on the scene to ensure that no one is trapped and people are well clear of the train

No, ‘we’ don‘t need that. There are established waysof managing that risk without staff.

 

[TheTallOne]

I know you say the last bit in jest but it really is a matter of perspective. Some demographics get frequent unwanted advances from people who are hard to get rid of, some may have conditions which mean having somebody present to help would be reassuring. Some may need physical assistance.

I have to say I agree. The antisocial behaviour coupled with a lack of conductors would put me off. It wasn’t great post covid where the conductors had to be persuaded to start walking through the trains again apparently.

Not that conductors should be in that position. What we really need is a nicer society and a government that doesn’t cut police and other services to the bone.