Wrexham, Shropshire & Midlands Railway

[The Planner]

Certainly some interesting assumptions in this. The 1100 departure from Euston is a direct clash with the Chester path at 1102, which doesn't stop at MK. Presumably the expectation is for the Avanti to be flexed later and run later throughout. Same with the 1400 departure. If Avanti reinstate those, then some interesting discussions will be had. The 1736 needs 9S97 tweaked as well. 2010 is fine as the Manchester behind it has a Watford stop.
The 0658 off Shrewsbury is right behind the TfW, so it doesn't seem like it will attract many Shrewsbury Wolves passengers. It also has to wait for the Crewe New St service as well. The xx56 departures off Nuneaton don't seem to work either with the down Manchester passing at xx55½ and at MK with the up Liverpool right behind it.

 

[jamieh27]

It will be 221s or 222s.

And there wont be any electric conversion. There wasnt a case a decade ago when the design / development cost was spread across a whole fleet with 20-25 years remaining life; it certainly won’t be remotely viable across a micro fleet with 10-15 years remaining life.

Aren't some going to XC (additional), Grand Central (replace the 180s) and Grand Union (Cardiff to Edinburgh.

 

[weeklycommuter]

I assume they are paying for the line speed increase on the Sutton Park they are requiring.

Hence them wanting the Sutton Park sped up, Walsall to Coleshill in 21 minutes is ambitious...
They are obviously expecting the likes of XC to flex as well. As that 0814 looks like it would clash at Water Orton to me.

Certainly some interesting assumptions in this. The 1100 departure from Euston is a direct clash with the Chester path at 1102, which doesn't stop at MK. Presumably the expectation is for the Avanti to be flexed later and run later throughout. Same with the 1400 departure. If Avanti reinstate those, then some interesting discussions will be had. The 1736 needs 9S97 tweaked as well. 2010 is fine as the Manchester behind it has a Watford stop.
The 0658 off Shrewsbury is right behind the TfW, so it doesn't seem like it will attract many Shrewsbury Wolves passengers. It also has to wait for the Crewe New St service as well. The xx56 departures off Nuneaton don't seem to work either with the down Manchester passing at xx55½ and at MK with the up Liverpool right behind it.

I conclude from the above that the proposed WSMR timetable has clashes with services run by existing operators and requires an infrastructure improvement so it is not workable and will not happen. The other problem with such proposals for open access services between London and the West Midlands is the expectation that within the next ten years three HS2 trains an hour each with over one thousand seats will start operating between Birmingham Curzon Street, Birmingham Interchange, Old Oak Common and eventually London Euston so anyone travelling from the West Midlands to London will just head for Birmingham Curzon Street or Birmingham Interchange and will not be interested in an open access service. That is not an issue for the proposed Grand Union open access services Stirling to Euston and Carmarthen to Paddington.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The other problem with such proposals for open access services between London and the West Midlands is the expectation that within the next ten years ....... anyone travelling from the West Midlands to London will just head for Birmingham Curzon Street or Birmingham Interchange and will not be interested in an open access service.

One of the selling points of WSMR will be the direct service to London. HS2 will require not only a change of train in Birmingham, but also of station. (and that applies whether you are coming from Shrewsbury or Solihull, Wolverhampton or Walsall, Colwich or Coventry - a direct service will always trump faffing about in Birmingham)

Birmingham Curzon Street is a sideshow and may well turn out to be a white elephant. Even for Phase 1, the trains that turn right at the Delta and continue to Handsacre and beyond will be the main attraction.

 

[Wolfie]

What intrigues me, is Alstom being part of it, so can't rule out some of the Bombardier fleets eg 220-222 surplus from 805, 807, 810 introduction.

Theoretically can't rule out Alstom putting pantographs on the unloved (but recently refurbished) 458s then using diesel push-pull north of Nuneaton, although that option is likely to be close to zero.

Wasn't Nuneaton an electric - diesel changeover point in mid 1960s so presumably has/had some loco sidings and provision which could be brought back into regular use.

180s???

 

[GardenRail]

Maybe, but a cycle path along the Conwy estuary is equally likely to be used by families and holidaymakers as it is serious cyclists. The issue for the trains is Deganwy Level Crossing, as mentioned, and the difficulty of making it safer or providing alternative routes to allow it to close outright.

What could be safer than a MCB. We are talking about the LC with the Signal Box along side it?

 

[The Planner]

One of the selling points of WSMR will be the direct service to London. HS2 will require not only a change of train in Birmingham, but also of station. (and that applies whether you are coming from Shrewsbury or Solihull, Wolverhampton or Walsall, Colwich or Coventry - a direct service will always trump faffing about in Birmingham)

Birmingham Curzon Street is a sideshow and may well turn out to be a white elephant. Even for Phase 1, the trains that turn right at the Delta and continue to Handsacre and beyond will be the main attraction.

Doubt it, the train service will get manipulated so HS2 will be the best choice even with Curzon St.

 

[Cambrian359]

Yeah they have for London-Wrexham

	Wrexham General — London Euston (Up direction)
Station	First service departure time	Second dep	Third dep	Fourth dep	Last service departure time
Wrexham General	06:21	07:54	10:55	14:54	17:30
Gobowen	06:35	08:07	11:09	15:08	17:45
Shrewsbury	06:58	08:26	11:28	15:27	18:04
Telford Central	07:19	08:45	11:45	15:45	18:23
Wolverhampton	07:39	09:05	12:04	16:04	18:43
Darlaston	07:45	09:11	12:11	16:11	18:50
Walsall	07:52	09:19	12:20	16:19	18:59
Coleshill Parkway	08:14	09:41	12:41	16:41	19:20
Nuneaton	08:29	09:56	12:56	16:56	19:35
Milton Keynes Central (Set-down only)	08:58	10:25	13:25	17:25	20:04
London Euston (arrival times)	09:31	10:58	13:58	18:00	20:37
	London Euston — Wrexham General (Down direction)
London Euston (departure times)	07:00	11:00	14:00	17:36	20:10
Milton Keynes Central (pick-up only)	07:31	11:31	14:31	18:06	20:41
Nuneaton	08:01	12:01	15:01	18:34	21:13
Coleshill Parkway	08:17	12:17	15:17	18:50	21:29
Walsall	08:38	12:38	15:40	19:11	21:54
Darlaston	08:45	12:46	15:40 (typo?)	19:18	22:00
Wolverhampton	08:52	12:52	15:57	19:29	22:08
Telford Central	09:13	13:13	16:14	19:48	22:25
Shrewsbury	09:28	13:29	16:29	20:10	22:42
Gobowen	09:46	13:54	17:01	20:27	22:58
Wrexham General (arrival times)	09:58	14:16	17:14	20:40	23:15

Up
Don’t TFW depart Shrewsbury for Holyhead at xx:28? Proposed service has xx:28/29 departures to Wrexham which also means it would be arriving into Shrewsbury at about the same time as TFW arriving from Birmingham.

Down
the proposed service departs Shrewsbury 2-3 minutes before the tfw towards Birmingham which is presumably why it doesn’t call at wellington to get out ahead of tfw service?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Doubt it, the train service will get manipulated so HS2 will be the best choice even with Curzon St.

Soem people will always prefer a direct train than having to change trains

 

[XCTurbostar]

Soem people will always prefer a direct train than having to change trains

This is one of the reasons that halving services (such as Liverpool to Norwich) is and was a bad idea. Another was the removal of Birmingham to Skegness trains which severely reduced the appeal to most people.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Soem people will always prefer a direct train than having to change trains

Some will, but probably not enough to hang a business plan on (cf WSMR v1).

Same reason I’m very sceptical about the plan to run direct trains to Kidderminster via the North Cotswolds - HS2 will be significantly quicker and Chiltern’s direct trains mostly carried fresh air.

 

[Llandudno]

Doubt it, the train service will get manipulated so HS2 will be the best choice even with Curzon St.

That’s as maybe, but will the HS2 services carry a very expensive fare premium…?

 

[zwk500]

What could be safer than a MCB. We are talking about the LC with the Signal Box along side it?

No LX at all....

 

[The Planner]

That’s as maybe, but will the HS2 services carry a very expensive fare premium…?

Everyone assumes this, but no one knows yet. I have no doubt it will be more expensive, but by what margin is anyones guess.

Soem people will always prefer a direct train than having to change trains

Thats fine as long as they accept the choice being limited, longer journey time etc. No different to now with LNWR vs Avanti or any other journey with multiple options.

 

[weeklycommuter]

That’s as maybe, but will the HS2 services carry a very expensive fare premium…?

Everyone assumes this, but no one knows yet. I have no doubt it will be more expensive, but by what margin is anyones guess.

The reason many long distance rail fares such as Manchester to London are set to be so expensive especially at peak times is there have not been enough seats to meet demand so the seats have been rationed by price. The whole point of building HS2 and the proposal to operate three 400 metre long double set trains each with 1,100 seats each hour each way between London and Birmingham (and hopefully London and Manchester too) is to ensure there are enough seats so this rationing of seats by price can end. I would therefore expect fares on HS2 services to be affordable and certainly no more expensive than the frequent stop service Birmingham to London fares as there will be enough seats, the fare revenue will come from a high number of passengers and Birmingham to London passengers need to be encouraged to use HS2 services instead of frequent stop services to provide capacity relief for the frequent stop services. It would make no sense to set HS2 fares higher than on the frequent stop services with the same origin and destination. HS2 services should be turn up and go services with the option to pay by using contactless at the start of the journey. The frequent stop services can then cater for passengers travelling to and from stops between London and Birmingham. I just cannot see how a limited stop open access service such as proposed by WSMR to London Euston from West of Birmingham would attract enough business when the passengers would be able get to London Euston more quickly by travelling to a Birmingham City Centre station then joining a HS2 service at Birmingham Curzon Street. HS2 services would also have the additional benefit of calling at Old Oak Common as well as London Euston.

 

[norbitonflyer]

HS2 services should be turn up and go services with the option to pay by using contactless at the start of the journey.

"Should", yes. But the way things are going, turn-up-and-go on inter city routes will be a thing of the past by the time HS2 opens.

 

[Fermiboson]

The pdf link provided by OP appears dead?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One of the selling points of WSMR will be the direct service to London. HS2 will require not only a change of train in Birmingham, but also of station. (and that applies whether you are coming from Shrewsbury or Solihull, Wolverhampton or Walsall, Colwich or Coventry - a direct service will always trump faffing about in Birmingham)
Birmingham Curzon Street is a sideshow and may well turn out to be a white elephant. Even for Phase 1, the trains that turn right at the Delta and continue to Handsacre and beyond will be the main attraction.

The best route from Shropshire to Euston after HS2 opens is likely to be via Birmingham International (on TfW's hourly service) with its people-mover to Interchange on HS2.
Shrewsbury also has the route via Crewe onto HS2 trains.

I imagine the WSMR schedules are just proposals and will have to flex to fit existing operators and line speeds.
Infrastructure improvements are not cheap and need a long time to pay off.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Has anyone found the detailed WSMR application on the ORR website? I've not managed to find it

The following two documents are currently available on the following web page

Sale of access rights - Network Rail

All passenger and freight train operators who want to use to our network require a track access contract. Our customer teams dealing with each train operator (TOC or FOC) lead the contractual negotiations and the sale of access rights with train operators on the contracts. Our Sale of Access...

www.networkrail.co.uk

Consultations
Completed Track Access Consultations
2023
20.11.2023 - WSMR Company limited - Section 17 - Closes 20.12.2023

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Completed%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/2023/20.11.2023%20-%20WSMR%20Company%20limited%20-%20Section%2017%20-%20Closes%2020.12.2023/WSMR%20Track%20Access%20Contract%20-%20Draft%20Oct%202023.pdf

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Completed%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/2023/20.11.2023%20-%20WSMR%20Company%20limited%20-%20Section%2017%20-%20Closes%2020.12.2023/passenger-access-application-form-p_WSMR_S17_Final%20Draft%20FOR%20ISSUE.pdf

 

[victormildrew]

Economic partners want new Shropshire train link to London 'as quickly as possible'​

Industry experts from the private, public, education and voluntary sectors have thrown their weight behind plans for a new direct rail service to London.

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news...ckly-as-possible/#viafoura-comments-container

The Leader of Shropshire Council has written to Mark Harper, the Secretary of State for Transport, on behalf of the Shropshire Economic Partnership, to express support for a planned new direct rail service between Wrexham, Shrewsbury and London.
The Shropshire Economic Partnership (SEP), comprising of industry experts from the private, public, education and voluntary sectors, was formed in 2023 to drive economic growth in Shropshire

It is using its collective voice to support the application from Wrexham, Shropshire and Midlands Rail Service. County MPs have also recently given their support to the proposal.


In her letter to Mark Harper MP, Councillor Lezley Picton says: “You will be aware that Avanti has recently cancelled Shropshire’s only direct train to London and this decision was met with great disappointment by businesses and residents across Shropshire.

“However, we were delighted that the Wrexham, Shropshire and Midlands Railway (WSMR) put forward plans last year to introduce a new daily train service between Wrexham and Euston, and Shropshire will benefit enormously from this new ‘open access’ train operator if it is successful in its application to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR).
“This service will link Shropshire to London, but in addition will also provide a service to the east of Birmingham, an area which is difficult to reach without several changes.


"Shropshire Council is also in discussions with the operator regarding the possibility of a parkway station for Shrewsbury. This has been a long-held ambition not only for Shropshire Council but also for the West Midlands Combined Authority.


“These proposals, which have now been submitted to the ORR, will bring faster and more direct journey opportunities to our region. This is a must for Shropshire and our surrounding areas as to fully exploit our growth potential we need far better transport links.”
In her letter, Lezley Picton asks that the Secretary of State works with the Office of Rail and Road, and within the Department for Transport, to ensure the application is processed as quickly as possible “so that Shropshire’s communities can benefit from these services and wider benefits as soon as possible”.