Wrongly charged admin fee for Virgin EC First Class upgrade?

[JonnyG]

Advice on admin fees for upgrading ticket class please...
I recently visited the travel centre at King's Cross to upgrade to Advance First a KX - York return originally travelling on two Advance Standard tickets - same date, same train. Anticipating problems, I also took a print off of this
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46557.aspx which although poorly laid out seems to me to indicate that provided you are travelling on the same train and not travelling on Cross Country, no admin fee is payable - you simply pay the difference in fare.

Despite this and having three staff involved in the conversation at one point, I was charged a £10 fee for each upgrade. Apart from referring me to customer service it was suggested the National Rail guidance only applied to Arriva Trains Wales!

I appreciate that being Advance tickets one might well think an admin fee applies, but I would have hoped someone would have known better. Unless there has been a change not reflected on the NR site - the Virgin EC site doesn't even mention weekday ticket class changes. I will contact Customer Services, but has anyone else encountered this?

 

[bb21]

According to the relevant sections of Excess Fare Procedures, I believe you are correct that if travel were on the same train, with the only change being the class of accommodation, no admin should be charged except when travelling on XC.

If a change of travel plan were involved, ie. taking a different train, the admin fee would be applicable.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Having reread the Advance Fares FAQ, I would concur that an admin fee is NOT applicable where you remain on the same train.

Having said that, I believe I'm right in saying that there's a clause in the Excess Fares procedures that states that an Advance ticket is NEVER an "appropriate fare" for Excess purposes, but I'm not at work at present so can't check KnowledgeBase.

 

[bb21]

There is. I think it refers to an excess fare charged onboard.

 

[Haywain]

I must admit to being slightly surprised by this, but it is correct that the admin fee should not have been applied. However, I am not surpised that staff at Kings Cross were unaware of this, as I doubt it is something that occurs more than once in a blue moon. It may be noted that a change of seats on the booked train does incur an admin fee as it involves staff time but otherwise no income, whereas the change of class generates income in itself. I believe that the staff at Kings Cross Travel Centre, and other stations operated by Virgin Trains East Coast may be reminded of this in the near future.

 

[wellwhatitis]

There is. I think it refers to an excess fare charged onboard.

That's a bone of contention that nobody seems to have the answer to when in an 'on board' situation.

The instruction from the Revenue people at our place is that an Advance fare can only be excessed if the passenger is travelling on an earlier train than booked and needs to pay the standard single, we are then allowed to excess the amount already paid. It doesn't matter if they want to excess to Standard or First.

Under no circumstances can we excess an Advance ticket on a train later than the booked train, then the ticket is treated as expired and the value lost.

But I have been led to believe by staff from other TOCs that even this advice may be incorrect.

 

[bb21]

My understanding is that an Advance fare can be excessed to whatever train the passenger wishes to change to, provided that at the time of excess, the departure time of the first reserved leg has not passed. Once the passenger misses his reserved train, the ticket becomes worthless.

If a passenger travels on a later train without having excessed his ticket earlier, a new ticket for the appropriate fare (as opposed to the full fare) should be sold, whereas an excess would be applicable onboard an earlier train.

Agree with Haywain that I was, too, slightly surprised by this. I only had it at the back of my mind as I happened to have come across it only a few days earlier when helping someone else with an excess enquiry. It is a bit of an odd one. The "generating income" argument wouldn't always apply though, as the fare excessed to may well be cheaper, albeit that such a situation is quite uncommon.

 

[JonnyG]

Just to confirm Customer Services did refund the £20 admin fee last month and accepted it had been incorrectly charged. Also the National Rail page now includes both the original garbled details and a correctly formatted alternative:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46557.aspx

So far there is still no mention of first class upgrades on the VTEC site (apart from Weekend First) but hopefully this will be added.

 

[snail]

It may be noted that a change of seats on the booked train does incur an admin fee as it involves staff time but otherwise no income, whereas the change of class generates income in itself. I believe that the staff at Kings Cross Travel Centre, and other stations operated by Virgin Trains East Coast may be reminded of this in the near future.

I've had the same response on VTWC trying to excess a Std Advance to First Advance on the same train, at two VT stations and at Liverpool Lime St travel centre.

Someone needs to get the message across to booking offices properly. It shouldn't be up to the passenger to explain the rules.

 

[bb21]

Just to confirm Customer Services did refund the £20 admin fee last month and accepted it had been incorrectly charged. Also the National Rail page now includes both the original garbled details and a correctly formatted alternative:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46557.aspx

So far there is still no mention of first class upgrades on the VTEC site (apart from Weekend First) but hopefully this will be added.

Very good to hear.

I've had the same response on VTWC trying to excess a Std Advance to First Advance on the same train, at two VT stations and at Liverpool Lime St travel centre.

Someone needs to get the message across to booking offices properly. It shouldn't be up to the passenger to explain the rules.

It is an odd ball though amongst all the excess fare procedures for Advance fares, so I wonder how many people in the industry actually knows about it.

 

[gray1404]

I hope they refunded the £20 admin fee by cheque, BACS or back onto your payment card i.e. NOT in the form of a rail travel voucher. lol

 

[JonnyG]

Yes, it was BACS