WTT 1963 query

[jfollows]

Looking at the South Manchester (Section M) WTT for 1974/75, the page summarising 2-position route indication shows the numbers quoted by @jfollows:-

• Piccadilly - Buxton: 3
• Buxton - Piccadilly: 3
• Oxford Rd - Buxton: 3
• Buxton - Oxford Rd: 0

However in the body of the same WTT, the handful of rush-hour trains from Buxton to Manchester which terminated at Oxford Rd rather than Piccadilly all show "DMU B3" at the head of their columns (not DMU B0 as would be expected).
These trains did, however, have different 4-character headcodes: 2H71 if terminating at Picc, 2H72 if going to Oxford Rd.
The trains involved were:
07:04 SX Buxton - Oxford Rd
07:26 SX Buxton - Oxford Rd

Possibly the driver of the train in the photo had diligently set his B3 route indicator according to the WTT entry for his particular train.
Or maybe, because the huge majority of DMUs up and down the Buxton line always used the B3 code, the winding mechanism for the blinds had rusted up in the damp air at Buxton depot!

Good spot - the same for my 1977 CM WTT.
I used to use the evening workings (so properly B3!) from Oxford Road which used platform 1; at the time the service frequency from Oxford Road to Piccadilly was ~5/hour so they were a useful addition to the frequency, and they also sat in platform 1 for a while so it was easy to spot them and walk over to them. I changed at Piccadilly for Poynton/Macclesfield.

 

[Andy873]

Maybe I'm getting OT for @Andy873's original

No, not at all, in fact the more you all post here on this (WTT's) the more fascinating it gets.

My original focus was on my old branch line (Great Harwood loop) and the steam locos that went along it, and really apart from the big diesel deltic style engines I didn't pay too much attention to diesels / DMUs.

One of the things I find mildly curious is that the Preston Division used the headcode 0Z00 for light locomotives

In this 1963 WTT the light engines are indeed listed as 0Z00 except when they seem to be booked to work somewhere else.

I'd like to ask a question which is a little off the WTT's subject but it has me curious....

In this 1963 WTT it lists the trains running from Accrington to Manchester Victoria but I've noticed something:

Trains running from Accrington are DMU's, but the ones from Bury Bolton St to Manchester Victoria are listed as EMU's?, was this section electrified? really? or am I reading in too much into the E in EMU?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[jfollows]

Trains running from Accrington are DMU's, but the ones from Bury Bolton St to Manchester Victoria are listed as EMU's?, was this section electrified? really? or am I reading in too much into the E in EMU?

Third-rail, side contact EMUs, yes, I went on them in the 1970s. Replaced by Metrolink and the line re-electrified with overhead wire DC in due course.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_504 for description of the units which ran at the time of your WTT and which I remember later.

EDIT Class 504 introduced 1959, withdrawn 1991.

 

[Andy873]

Third-rail, side contact EMUs, yes, I went on them in the 1970s

Well, you learn something new everyday here! - thanks.

I've also spotted a motor rail car being used between Earby & Barnoldswick daily, and which returned back to Skipton - this is the first motor rail car I've seen in a WTT.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[jfollows]

Also, Bury Bolton Street was the terminus for the electric services, and this was closed and the line diverted to a new bus/rail interchange station next to the market in 1980, at the time still using the DC side-contact EMUs. The line at Bury Bolton Street remained and connected to Rawtenstall in the north and Castleton in the east for a connection back to the rest of the railway. In due course most of this became the East Lancashire Railway.

EDIT Since I'm from, and now live in "South Manchester" I always found places to the north of Manchester a bit "exotic", Manchester Victoria was somewhere I didn't go to very often and the Bury line was definitely unusual with its unique EMUs leaving from the bay platforms to the east of the station, before burrowing under the main lines and emerging again and striking out northwards past Cheetham Hill, Crumpsall and Prestwich. I didn't get to go there very often. My dentists is now in Prestwich but I drive there these days and was there on Wednesday......

 

[Andy873]

It's very interesting about the Bury section being electrified and having a class of engines all of their own.

Another question please:

One thing that puzzled me with this passenger WTT is why on earth would the light engines be listed, okay I thought maybe in my other one (for freight 1956) as I supposed BR would list them somewhere, but was surprised to see them in this passenger one.

On closer inspection it seems they have been working passenger services or are on their way to do so (including parcel services).

Looking at my 1956 freight WTT they seem to have worked or on their way to work goods trains / shunting.

Am I correct? in this why light engines are shown on both WTT's?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Gloster]

It's very interesting about the Bury section being electrified and having a class of engines all of their own.

Another question please:

One thing that puzzled me with this passenger WTT is why on earth would the light engines be listed, okay I thought maybe in my other one (for freight 1956) as I supposed BR would list them somewhere, but was surprised to see them in this passenger one.

On closer inspection it seems they have been working passenger services or are on their way to do so (including parcel services).

Looking at my 1956 freight WTT they seem to have worked or on their way to work goods trains / shunting.

Am I correct? in this why light engines are shown on both WTT's?

Thanks,
Andy.

Put simply, many light engines appear in WTTs because they are all part of one diagram and it is important that each move is made, or proper alternative arrangements made. If you just had a locomotive that got to (say) Colne, which was later to be used for a train from Bolton, if you didn’t make it clear that it (or at least a loco) was to run light from Colne to Bolton, you might end up with no loco at Bolton when needed.

 

[Bevan Price]

No, not at all, in fact the more you all post here on this (WTT's) the more fascinating it gets.

My original focus was on my old branch line (Great Harwood loop) and the steam locos that went along it, and really apart from the big diesel deltic style engines I didn't pay too much attention to diesels / DMUs.



In this 1963 WTT the light engines are indeed listed as 0Z00 except when they seem to be booked to work somewhere else.

I'd like to ask a question which is a little off the WTT's subject but it has me curious....

In this 1963 WTT it lists the trains running from Accrington to Manchester Victoria but I've noticed something:

Trains running from Accrington are DMU's, but the ones from Bury Bolton St to Manchester Victoria are listed as EMU's?, was this section electrified? really? or am I reading in too much into the E in EMU?

Thanks,
Andy.

Trains from Accrington to Manchester mostly used the (now closed) line from Bury to Clifton Junction

 

[Springs Branch]

Trains from Accrington to Manchester mostly used the (now closed) line from Bury to Clifton Junction

I often thought it a bit pedantic that Class 504 EMUs, which plied up & down between Bury and Man Vic all day, all dutifully carried their "B8" codes for that route. As if there were any other routes which signalmen at Hagside or Crumpsall boxes could accidentally divert them onto!

Having looked at @Andy873's attachment in Post #24, I realised this is a very 1970s-centric view. For a good few years between DMUs being introduced and Beeching cuts doing their worst, there would be several signalboxes in the Bury and Radcliffe areas who needed to distinguish between units showing:

• B8: Man Vic - Bury via Prestwich (electric)
• B2: Man Vic - Bacup via Heywood & Bury
• B7: Man Vic - Accrington and points north via Clifton Jn & Bury

EDIT Since I'm from, and now live in "South Manchester" I always found places to the north of Manchester a bit "exotic",

An interesting perspective. I was most familiar with the Victoria side of Manchester and (among other things) its oily, rattly Cravens "power twin" DMUs.

When I reached a suitable age, my first "And now for something completely different . . ." outings were to see unfamiliar rolling stock like suburban EMUs gliding into and out of Piccadilly. An "exotic" day out for me at the time was a Day Return ticket Piccadilly to Wilmslow or Alderley Edge - out via Styal, back via Stockport.

 

[Andy873]

As someone who only really got to travel on trains from the early 1970's I find all of this and the 1963 WTT fascinating.

When I saw the demolition train back in Sept 1967 at Great Harwood I thought it was the most wonderful / magical thing ever - had I been older and realised just what it was I would have had a different view.

It's only now, reading theses WTT's it brings it home just what we've lost.

Hope you don't mind, but a few more questions from me:

1. There is a daily DMU running from Blackburn and it's listed as "Trial trip to Horwich works", head code 3J49. Now I understand what Horwich works was, but what was this train? a run out to see if a new engine was okay etc?

2. 12.26 am ECS from Preston N.U. to Blackpool central 3P53 - what does the N.U. stand for, I can't find that in the abbreviations section.

3. 8.42 am Parcels from Clitheroe SO - the SO has a very thick black printer line under it - why? the WTT hasn't been written on.

4. W S X / W O - 3L21, Parcels, Loco. Stores Van, goes to either Rose Grove or Accrington. I presume it's carrying minor spare loco parts to an MPD?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[jfollows]

2. 12.26 am ECS from Preston N.U. to Blackpool central 3P53 - what does the N.U. stand for, I can't find that in the abbreviations section.



Thanks,
Andy.

Preston North Union

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Union_Railway, for example. The original name for what is now simply Preston station, built by the North Union Railway which was taken over jointly by the London & North Western Railway and the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway in 1889.

The NUR was absorbed by the two larger companies by the simple expedient of the section from Euxton to Bolton (the former B&PR) being taken by the L&YR and the section from Parkside to Euxton going to the L&NWR.

The stretch between Euxton Junction and Preston, which included the major part of Preston station, remained in joint ownership up to 1921 when the L&YR was absorbed by the L&NWR so from that date the former North Union Railway had only one owner. This section of the West Coast Main Line between London Euston and Carlisle had been the only part not wholly owned by the L&NWR.

 

[Springs Branch]

1. There is a daily DMU running from Blackburn and it's listed as "Trial trip to Horwich works", head code 3J49. Now I understand what Horwich works was, but what was this train? a run out to see if a new engine was okay etc?

Very likely that. An empty test run to check out a unit that's undergone some sort of maintenance or repair before it goes back to carrying fare-paying punters.

In the same era, the WTT for the Liverpool Exchange/Southport line had four round trips per day (SX) from Meols Cop EMU depot to Hall Road and back (via the Southport South curve, not Chapel St station) marked as "EMU Trial Trip". These were also marked in the WTT as "Q - Runs when required" and were all scheduled in the Mon - Fri midday period - presumably so that any unexpected problems with the unit whilst out on the line would inconvenience the minimum number of passengers.

What time did 3J49 run, and did it get to/from Horwich via Bolton or Bamber Bridge?

4. W S X / W O - 3L21, Parcels, Loco. Stores Van, goes to either Rose Grove or Accrington. I presume it's carrying minor spare loco parts to an MPD?

Quite likely the Stores Van carrying all sorts of miscellaneous consumables needed for routine operation of locomotives and units (there was a DMU depot at Accrington at the time) - drums of lubricating oil, spare parts of all kinds, cotton rags for cleaning, toilet paper for the depot lavatories etc etc).

 

[Andy873]

Thanks for that.

What time did 3J49 run, and did it get to/from Horwich via Bolton or Bamber Bridge?

The only entries it gives are as follows:

Departs Blackburn 11:11 am
Cherry Tree 11:15 am

So it looks like it went down the Blackburn - Chorley route to Horwich works, pretty sure by 1963 that route was closed to passengers but was still open to goods services.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Gloster]

3 - If there is nothing in the list of abbreviations at the front of the book or in one of the notes on the same page, it is most likely a slight slip when printing. Do you have an image of it?

 

[Andy873]

3 - If there is nothing in the list of abbreviations at the front of the book or in one of the notes on the same page, it is most likely a slight slip when printing. Do you have an image of it?

Sure, no problem, see attached.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[jfollows]

Sure, no problem, see attached.

Thanks,
Andy.

Andy,
You've got "Preston E.L." in that extract, which I presume stands for "East Lancashire" and in turn means the platforms originally used for the East Lancashire Railway.
So this contrasts with the "N.U." we discussed earlier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Lancashire_Railway_(1844–1859) has:

The ELR line across the Ribble between Preston and Bamber Bridge was closed to passengers in 1968, and to goods four years later. The East Lancashire platforms 10–13 were demolished along with Butler Street Goods Yard.

Jonathan.
PS I found the attached image (found via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_railway_station) helpful in trying to understand this (The ELR being subsumed into the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway shown in blue).
And this is all new to me, interesting stuff, thank you for posting.

 

[30907]

Sure, no problem, see attached.

Thanks,
Andy.

Pure guess: something has been deleted at the last moment and the printer has put the metal equivalent of a sticker over it. Possibly a spade symbol?

 

[Gloster]

To my mind it is something that slipped in during the printing process, possibly the removal or blanking out at a very late stage of something that was there in the earlier drafts. It almost certainly of absolutely no significance as far as using the timetable is concerned.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Andy,
You've got "Preston E.L." in that extract, which I presume stands for "East Lancashire" and in turn means the platforms originally used for the East Lancashire Railway.
So this contrasts with the "N.U." we discussed earlier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Lancashire_Railway_(1844–1859) has:

Jonathan.
PS I found the attached image (found via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_railway_station) helpful in trying to understand this (The ELR being subsumed into the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway shown in blue).
And this is all new to me, interesting stuff, thank you for posting.
View attachment 106828

I don’t know for certain, but have a feeling that the NU is probably referring to the NU Yard which is/was to the south of the station rather than the station itself. Whilst I’ve come across EL used to differentiate the former East Lancs Railway platforms from the rest of Preston station, I’ve only seen the “main” platforms referred to as just plain Preston. But I could be wrong, I’ll dig out my books when I get a chance.

 

[6Gman]

I don’t know for certain, but have a feeling that the NU is probably referring to the NU Yard which is/was to the south of the station rather than the station itself. Whilst I’ve come across EL used to differentiate the former East Lancs Railway platforms from the rest of Preston station, I’ve only seen the “main” platforms referred to as just plain Preston. But I could be wrong, I’ll dig out my books when I get a chance.

My father (driver at Crewe from 1966) always referred to the "main" part of Preston station as "the NU" or "the North Union" and the platforms on the Eastern side as "the East Lancs".

To my mind it is something that slipped in during the printing process, possibly the removal or blanking out at a very late stage of something that was there in the earlier drafts. It almost certainly of absolutely no significance as far as using the timetable is concerned.

I would agree with this.

 

[Andy873]

Andy,
You've got "Preston E.L." in that extract, which I presume stands for "East Lancashire"

Yes, the E.L. is on the abbreviations page as East Lancashire.
Love the map by the way!

My father (driver at Crewe from 1966) always referred to the "main" part of Preston station as "the NU" or "the North Union" and the platforms on the Eastern side as "the East Lancs".

It's interesting to note that long into BR days how some of the old names were still being used.

@every one - thanks about the bold underline, I shall just ignore it.

The whole 1963 passenger WTT (55 pages) is available now to download if you want it from Dropbox but you'll have to message me with your email address and sign up for a free account first. Other than that, I will send it over to Matt at Timetable world so he can add it the next time he updates his site.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I don’t know for certain, but have a feeling that the NU is probably referring to the NU Yard which is/was to the south of the station rather than the station itself. Whilst I’ve come across EL used to differentiate the former East Lancs Railway platforms from the rest of Preston station, I’ve only seen the “main” platforms referred to as just plain Preston. But I could be wrong, I’ll dig out my books when I get a chance.

Just a thought- wasn't the NU Yard also known as Christian Road yard immediately to W on the S of the station? I remember it from the mid 1950s as a series of shortish sidings plus a small number of longer sidings with activity all day on weekdays comprising wagons being rough shunted ( loud crashing sounds ) by jinties while the long roads comprised the completed trains that were taken South during the evening. My memory is that shunting and trip working on the through/goods lines ceased sometime after 4pm ready to let the Fylde Coast commuter trainds through that didn't stop at Preston. I suppose EL and NU were just convenient shorthand as was West Lancs for the Fishergate Hill terminus station.

 

[Andy873]

Again, all interesting things here.

Two questions together here...

On page 25 (attached) it states parcels to Colne from Preston - 3L00.

Now inside the column it states "runs via E.L. loop", EL being East Lancs, but was this going via the Padiham loop? I've not seen the other route called the EL loop before?

Second question, how really do you read the arrow indicators, i.e. left / right arrow.
In the same column one is pointing right, so where do I pick up this train again?

@every one

I also have available my 1956 WTT (Freight) for Todmorden to Great Harwood junction on Dropbox if anyone is interested - it's also available on Timetableworld.com.

It's great to look through the 1963 passenger one, as you can see by this date the mix of steam & DMU's.

In the 1963 one, it looks like trains going south / west to Southport & Liverpool are still pulled by steam, as is the majority (but not all) parcels, and the rest DMUs & EMUs.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Gloster]

Arrow. When an arrow points to the right means that the train continues, but has been overtaken by other trains (or gone via a slower route, etc.) and so is continued in a column further along in order to keep it in chronological order. 3L00 is continued in the column five further along because it is overtaken at Blackburn by the 09.10 DMU. The right pointing one shows you that you have to find it in a further column, the left pointing one in the further column shows it is continued from an earlier column. You can get more than one right or left pointing arrows on a page: this alerts you to the fact that trains are continued in/continued from earlier columns and you just have to check the headcode or train description at the top to find out which is which.

 

[Andy873]

Arrow. When an arrow points to the right means that the train continues, but has been overtaken by other trains (or gone via a slower route, etc.) and so is continued in a column further along in order to keep it in chronological order. 3L00 is continued in the column five further along because it is overtaken at Blackburn by the 09.10 DMU. The right pointing one shows you that you have to find it in a further column, the left pointing one in the further column shows it is continued from an earlier column. You can get more than one right or left pointing arrows on a page: this alerts you to the fact that trains are continued in/continued from earlier columns and you just have to check the headcode or train description at the top to find out which is which.

Thanks, I get it now.

Sometimes the continuation could be the next column along, or it could be 3 or 4 columns along - the head code is a big help here, thanks for the tip.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[30907]

On page 25 (attached) it states parcels to Colne from Preston - 3L00.

Now inside the column it states "runs via E.L. loop", EL being East Lancs, but was this going via the Padiham loop? I've not seen the other route called the EL loop before?

Clearly not, as the train runs via Accrington - and wasn't the Loop called (oddly) the North Lancs?
The note obviously relates to Prestonto, and I don't know which of the many lines there it refers to, sorry.

 

[Gloster]

Thanks, I get it now.

Sometimes the continuation could be the next column along, or it could be 3 or 4 columns along - the head code is a big help here, thanks for the tip.

Thanks,
Andy.

It wouldn’t normally be in the next column as the train that ‘overtakes’ would be fitted in there. It will usually be two or more columns along: sometimes it can be quite a few and on a subsequent page. It can also happen several times to the same train: slow passenger or parcels trains out of Euston could be overtaken by a number of fasts and each time the slow would be moved a couple of columns to the right.

Again, all interesting things here.

Two questions together here...

On page 25 (attached) it states parcels to Colne from Preston - 3L00.

Now inside the column it states "runs via E.L. loop", EL being East Lancs, but was this going via the Padiham loop? I've not seen the other route called the EL loop before?

East Lancs Loop. As the footnote is in the column devoted to the part of 3L00’s journey between Preston and Blackburn, it is to be expected that it applies to this part of the journey. If it applied to a later part, it would be in the column containing that part of the journey (normally, there are always exceptions).

Looking at the 1931 inset map of Preston in the Liverpool & Manchester Railway Atlas and various maps found under Images after googling Preston station platform layout , I reckon that platform 6 was what is now 4a/b and the East Lancs loop was a now lifted single connecting line that curved round from Platform 7, now 5b, to the line that connected the East Lancs side of the station to the line towards Whitehouse Junctions and Bamber Bridge.

 

[Bevan Price]

Clearly not, as the train runs via Accrington - and wasn't the Loop called (oddly) the North Lancs?
The note obviously relates to Prestonto, and I don't know which of the many lines there it refers to, sorry.

That note is a bit of an oddity. It states that the train departed from Platform No. 6 at Preston, which is now Platform 4, and I don't recall that platform being able to access the EL lines out of Preston. Bamber Bridge can be reached via Farington Curve Jn & Lostock Hall - but would not the go via Todd Lane Jn. Any suggestions ?

 

[Gloster]

That note is a bit of an oddity. It states that the train departed from Platform No. 6 at Preston, which is now Platform 4, and I don't recall that platform being able to access the EL lines out of Preston. Bamber Bridge can be reached via Farington Curve Jn & Lostock Hall - but would not the go via Todd Lane Jn. Any suggestions ?

A (modern) diagram of Preston in 1926 to be found as in #57 shows a scissors crossover between (then) 6 and 7 not far north of the south end of 7 (and about half-way down 6).

 

[Andy873]

and you just have to check the headcode or train description at the top

I decided to really get to grips with the arrow indicators in the WTT. and at last I can say the penny has dropped.

Looking thought the pages for any column with a right arrow I was able to match up the train in another column using the head code, route, and type of train e.g. parcels.

Something else is useful too:

Because I managed to scan the whole WTT I was able to print off the front few pages i.e. abbreviations, train indicators & route numbers. This way when I'm glancing at the WTT I don't have to keep going back to the front of it to understand what I'm reading - I just look at the copies, it's so much easier that way.

Question:

What does limited load mean?

1. Listed is the 3:42 am from Manchester Vic to Colne going via Bolton / Blackburn, this is 1L97 MO and is a newspaper train. Limited load is mentioned here.

2. It is also mentioned for an express passenger train 1L55 from Manchester Vic at 3:55 pm SX also going this same route.

In both cases these are pulled by steam not DMUs.

Thanks,
Andy.