XC - Are you Running 2 coach Trains to Cardiff on Sat 8 June?

[Envoy]

I was at Cardiff Central a couple of weeks ago and noticed that Cross Country still had 2 coach trains on the Nottingham to Cardiff route despite the fact that the Spice Girls were at the Principality Stadium. Needless to say, they were rammed.

Now, I thought that XC had a spare HST lying around somewhere. Surely, that should have been put into service on this route due to the number of people that needed to travel to/from Cardiff on that day? Seems to me that no attempt was made by XC to address the situation. Anyway, I really do wonder whether or not they are aware of when special events takes place? I see that this coming Saturday - 8 June, that Take That are at the Principality Stadium. International Cricket is also taking place in Cardiff on the same day - England & Wales v Bangla Desh. Presumably it will still be 2 coach trains on the route with a 3 coach if people are in luck?

https://www.principalitystadium.wales/event/take-that-greatest-hits-live-2019/
https://businesswales.gov.wales/majorevents/events/icc-cricket-world-cup-2019-england-v-bangladesh

 

[diffident]

This is XC you're talking about...

 

[richa2002]

Correct. The privatised railway has little to no flexibility so even though XC have HSTs, you'll never see them put on routes that are ex-Central Trains such as this. Joy!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Correct. The privatised railway has little to no flexibility so even though XC have HSTs, you'll never see them put on routes that are ex-Central Trains such as this. Joy!

And yet EMT does reshuffle its fleet on Aintree Races days to use a long Meridian set on the Liverpool-Norwich, so XC are just lazy. To be fair, XC are just lazy anyway; not a great TOC at all.

 

[Starmill]

Now, I thought that XC had a spare HST lying around somewhere.

Who told you that?

CrossCountry do run additional services for the Cheltenham Festival and I think a small number of other events. I am not sure they would ever consider it for something like the Spice Girls though.

 

[pdeaves]

Supposing there was an HST on that route. That would mean some other route would miss out, would it not? In which case, 'we' (the great British public) would all moan about being even more crammed than usual just because some pop group was performing somewhere...

 

[Clip]

Why arent TfW taking up there slack for concerts then ? Why is it only XC in the firing line

 

[Starmill]

There is not necessarily a need to use the additional rolling stock on the route directly concerned, but this is missing the point. Is there actually any rolling stock that wasn't in service available? And if there is, are there actually enough additional passengers using these services specifically to necessitate it?

 

[ChrisC]

And yet EMT does reshuffle its fleet on Aintree Races days to use a long Meridian set on the Liverpool-Norwich, so XC are just lazy. To be fair, XC are just lazy anyway; not a great TOC at all.

Unlike XC, EMT have usually been very good at this, not just Aintree Races but also Lincoln Christmas Market, Skegness on summer Saturdays, Uttoxeter Races etc. Also quite recently adding capacity one Saturday on most trains on the Robinhood Line when Mansfield were playing Notts County and they were only in League 2!
I just hope that things will continue to be as good when Abellio take over. Stagecoach have often been criticised for running a very mediocre franchise in the East Midlands but things could be far worse. Look at XC.

 

[Mojo]

Back in 2005, Central Trains (as was) ran 10 car 150s on their services between Birmingham and Cardiff when there were major events on.

 

[richa2002]

And yet EMT does reshuffle its fleet on Aintree Races days to use a long Meridian set on the Liverpool-Norwich, so XC are just lazy. To be fair, XC are just lazy anyway; not a great TOC at all.

EMT tend to show a 'can-do' attitude in many situations so all credit to them. They can only work with what they have in their fleet/route knowledge though. Now imagine if the whole rail network worked as one without such arbitary lines in the sand!

 

[diffident]

Back in 2005, Central Trains (as was) ran 10 car 150s on their services between Birmingham and Cardiff when there were major events on.

Watching *that* beasting up and down the Lickey would be a sight to see!!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Problem is everyone wants the industry to cut costs that means having small fleets, no spare for big events!

When I say everyone, I mean passengers too who constantly ask for lower fares. We've put our fares up so we can run extra trains to spice girls wouldn't go down well.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Back in 2005, Central Trains (as was) ran 10 car 150s on their services between Birmingham and Cardiff when there were major events on.

10-car 150's??? How would then Central Trains have been able to run that many coaches?

 

[Bletchleyite]

10-car 150's??? How would then Central Trains have been able to run that many coaches?

Presumably would require 150001 and 150002 to be involved, as aren't you limited to 6 cabs in a 15x formation?

 

[Envoy]

Why arent TfW taking up there slack for concerts then ? Why is it only XC in the firing line

Transport for Wales only run trains on this route as far as Cheltenham - and they are going to fully stretched with their other routes as well. If people are coming from places north of Cheltenham - as surely they will, then using the present 2 & 3 coach 170’s is going to result in trains being rammed. They can barely cope with normal demand and goodness knows what will happen when they pick up additional passengers from the forthcoming Worcester Parkway? XC HST’s do operate into south Wales when diversions take place and there is 1 daily XC Voyager into and out of Cardiff - going to Manchester via Bristol Temple Meads - which is pretty useless for south Wales passengers as they can get to Manchester quicker via the shorter Marches Route. Still, it does shift commuters into Bristol.

I note that the TOC’s which seem to have the greatest dissatisfaction are Northern, XC and the former Arriva Trains Wales. I note that they are all/were operated by Arriva.

 

[43074]

This is XC you're talking about...

But it's not really XCs fault, they only have so many trains in the fleet to work with: the refranchising process has been stopped so there's not a lot they/the DfT can do for now. If there was more flexibility in the franchising model maybe they could/should do something, but it's the model we're stuck with...

Unlike XC, EMT have usually been very good at this, not just Aintree Races but also Lincoln Christmas Market, Skegness on summer Saturdays, Uttoxeter Races etc. Also quite recently adding capacity one Saturday on most trains on the Robinhood Line when Mansfield were playing Notts County and they were only in League 2!
I just hope that things will continue to be as good when Abellio take over. Stagecoach have often been criticised for running a very mediocre franchise in the East Midlands but things could be far worse. Look at XC.

Unlike EMT though XC don't have the same peaks that EMT do on the London route, as their timetables are pretty consistent frequency wise all the time. Therefore you can't just "stick a HST on it" as there probably won't be one available, most of their stock is used all the time. There might be the odd 2-car 170 which could form a 4-car but nothing drastic.

 

[tbtc]

Now, I thought that XC had a spare HST lying around somewhere. Surely, that should have been put into service on this route due to the number of people that needed to travel to/from Cardiff on that day? Seems to me that no attempt was made by XC to address the situation

• Are you criticising Wales & Borders too? Or just XC? Given that the Spice Girls are playing at other UK venues, is there anything specific to the Gloucestershire area that means there are more Spice Girls fans there?

• These kind of threads are no doubt well intentioned but where do you draw the line? There are big sporting events happening somewhere on the Nottingham - Cardiff line every Saturday/ Sunday during the football season - should XC be running HSTs on these days (when Cardiff City/ Aston Villa/ Birmingham City/ Burton Albion/ Derby County/ Nottingham Forest etc are at home and also days when those clubs are playing teams away that they might access on the Nottingham - Cardiff axis)?

• Which diagram do you put this one HST on? Given that the service interworks between the Cardiff services and the Nottingham - Birmingham "shorts" (AIUI?), are you running the HST so that it arrives in Cardiff an hour before the gig? In which case that number of people can get to the gig but are then dumped on a Turbostar on the way home (whilst the HST is probably trundling around the East Midlands, later on that diagram).

• How many of the stations used by XC can an HST stop at? Not just a case of SDO but also potentially fouling junctions/ signals.

• How many XC staff should be trained on HSTs for the Cardiff route? You'd need more than one, because what if they were sick on the day of any Spice Girls concerts? How much resources should XC be spending on maintaining such niche staff knowledge?

• Which XC diagram should receive a two coach 170 in lieu of their regular weekend HST?
• If the answer is that XC should have dozens of spare trains to cope with such peak demands then are you okay with them sitting idle the rest of the time? There's always a better use for stock
• All Saints were better

In an ideal world, sure, we'd tinker around and find the spare resources. But XC are a very stretched franchise - there are things happening all over the UK most weekends - if it's not football in the winter then it's festivals/ marathons/ marches/ tourist events in the summer. Other TOCs have lucrative London commuter season ticket income that means they can justify having lots of extra carriages that are only used on a handful of peak weekday services, and can therefore utilise them at weekends - XC has never been like this.

 

[diffident]

Theoretically, couldn't XC hire in the theoretical HST set we're talking about here from EMT, or another operator that might just happen to have one knocking around over the weekend, and run it as an additional service?

 

[Mojo]

Presumably would require 150001 and 150002 to be involved, as aren't you limited to 6 cabs in a 15x formation?

Not from my photos, attached, taken on the 3rd September 2005, I don't take unit numbers but the trailing unit here is 150007, the leading two units being ex-Anglia 150/2s. In the high-resolution original of the second photo you can make out the extra cab doors in the middle of both of the rear two units implying that neither 001 or 002 is involved.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

XC run booked 2-car trains out of Birmingham New Street so I highly doubt they’ve got the resources to do much event strengthening. Although in a sane world, they’d approach WMR with a view to hiring an extra 170 or two for major weekend events in Cardiff.

A spare HST is all very well but if it’s in Plymouth or Edinburgh then that’s hardly much use.

 

[PHILIPE]

XC run booked 2-car trains out of Birmingham New Street so I highly doubt they’ve got the resources to do much event strengthening. Although in a sane world, they’d approach WMR with a view to hiring an extra 170 or two for major weekend events in Cardiff.

A spare HST is all very well but if it’s in Plymouth or Edinburgh then that’s hardly much use.

There is a reluctance to hire as it would cost money. XC HSTs have to finish at either Craigentinny, Neville Hill or Laira.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

There is a reluctance to hire as it would cost money. XC HSTs have to finish at either Craigentinny, Neville Hill or Laira.

Aww, what a shame, Arriva might have to part with some money.

Other operators do it, it’s called being a professional operation and doing the right thing.

 

[Tractor37]

Presumably would require 150001 and 150002 to be involved, as aren't you limited to 6 cabs in a 15x formation?

Yes you can have a 10 car 150 without using 3 car 150001 & 2. 15x you can run a maximum of 12 cars joined together. Anything involving a 14x reduces this down to 8 cars.

 

[yorkie]

Theoretically, couldn't XC hire in the theoretical HST set we're talking about here from EMT, or another operator that might just happen to have one knocking around over the weekend, and run it as an additional service?

Yes but they won't.

It's much cheaper to run 2 car trains and pay compensation to customers whose journey are delayed, as appropriate.

Aww, what a shame, Arriva might have to part with some money.

Other operators do it, it’s called being a professional operation and doing the right thing.

True but who is going to make them?

No-one can.

 

[bb21]

Yes you can have a 10 car 150 without using 3 car 150001 & 2. 15x you can run a maximum of 12 cars joined together. Anything involving a 14x reduces this down to 8 cars.

I think in theory it was maximum 12 cabs rather than 12 cars, and @Bletchleyite may have confused 6 sets (two cabs each) with 6 cabs.

I think in the example given by @Mojo it was likely two sets of 3-car and two sets of 2-car, as Central had a good pool of the former. I have however never seen any example of more than four sets forming a passenger service.

True but who is going to make them?

No-one can.

As long as TOCs are private companies they cannot be compelled to do so unless laid down as part of franchise requirement. It will almost certainly lose them money if they hired in an extra HST considering where they need to be before and after.

I was (not so perhaps) surprised to find out recently that we lose a lot of money on every extra train we run on event days, even fully loaded ones, but we do it for a variety of other reasons including safety and crowd management. On financials alone there isn't a chance in hell these additional trains would be run.

 

[Tractor37]

I think in theory it was maximum 12 cabs rather than 12 cars, and @Bletchleyite may have confused 6 sets (two cabs each) with 6 cabs.

I think in the example given by @Mojo it was likely two sets of 3-car and two sets of 2-car, as Central had a good pool of the former. I have however never seen any example of more than four sets forming a passenger service.

Definitely 12 cars not cabs however a 153 counts as 2. Either that or all my traction manuals and company handbooks are wrong.

 

[bb21]

Definitely 12 cars not cabs however a 153 counts as 2. Either that or all my traction manuals and company handbooks are wrong.

I may have to doublecheck tomorrow, but 153 counting as two does seem to make sense with the "cabs" theory. That said it is possible over time misunderstanding has built up and if your manuals say otherwise I would not disagree. (You can probably tell I don't sign diesel stock. )

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think in theory it was maximum 12 cabs rather than 12 cars, and @Bletchleyite may have confused 6 sets (two cabs each) with 6 cabs.

Quite possibly.

I think in the example given by @Mojo it was likely two sets of 3-car and two sets of 2-car, as Central had a good pool of the former. I have however never seen any example of more than four sets forming a passenger service.

There used to be a fairly long ECS formation formed up at Preston up to 2300ish, usually in P2, when it'd head off together to Newton Heath. I think that was 3 or 4 units at most, though - thinking on it was something like a 150 (probably from Blackpool N), the Colne/Blackpool S 142s (2 units) and the Ormskirk 153.

 

[Tractor37]

I may have to doublecheck tomorrow, but 153 counting as two does seem to make sense with the "cabs" theory. That said it is possible over time misunderstanding has built up and if your manuals say otherwise I would not disagree. (You can probably tell I don't sign diesel stock. )

Diesels units are my staple diet around the north.