XC desperately needs more rolling stock

[Trainbike46]

The DfT should be applauded for making a wise decision to dispense with expensive-to-run relics from the past.

It does make sense to remove the XC HSTs, however they should be replaced by other trains, rather than a cut in capacity on an operator that is already short on that.

Fortunately, multiple obvious options are available, including taking on the ex-avanti 221s, the ex-EMR 222s, or, if rejigging services to allow, some of the EMUs that are off-lease.

But crucially, the government isn't currently doing any of those, they are reducing services and capacity

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

The platforms have fitted 5 car class 720 units within them at Stansted Airport.

It makes more sense for the Birmingham - Stansted to be going to Nottingham, if capacity.

From what I have seen there has been at times a three class 170, with a two class 170 couple to it regularly at times on the service from Stansted Airport. Hence, why 5 car flirts.

The reason for bi-mode rather than BEMU's, is the distance that the flirts would have to travel on battery power, you would need longer stops at a few places for the batteries to recharge with current battery technology. But like the class 755/756 units, I would have the trains built as bi-modes or possibly tri-modes, with the ability to remove the main diesel power packs later to be replaced by batteries. The longer the stops so that the trains could recharge their batteries the less likely that you will get more people from cars and on to trains.

How has a 5-car 170 managed to fit in platform 2 at Stansted Airport? Unless there was enough time on one of the other platforms for some reason. 5-car 170's when or if possible would solve the capacity problems big time!

 

[Snow1964]

This week there are diversions via Bath, Westbury and Castle Cary.

Producing some strange results, eg tomorrow 1V56 Glasgow - Penzance, 13 hours on single 5car voyager

Realtime Trains | 1V56 0748 Glasgow Central to Penzance | 18/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 1V56 0748 departure from Glasgow Central to Penzance on 18/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Or how about 1S45 Penzance - Edinburgh on 4car unit

Realtime Trains | 1S45 0628 Penzance to Edinburgh | 18/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 1S45 0628 departure from Penzance to Edinburgh on 18/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[RobShipway]

How has a 5-car 170 managed to fit in platform 2 at Stansted Airport? Unless there was enough time on one of the other platforms for some reason. 5-car 170's when or if possible would solve the capacity problems big time!

Well, the platforms have fitted 5 car class 720 and the carriages for the Aventra trains are longer than the carriages for either class 170 or for that matter class 755.

 

[Trainbike46]

Well, the platforms have fitted 5 car class 720 and the carriages for the Aventra trains are longer than the carriages for either class 170 or for that matter class 755.

Platform 1 and 3 easily fit 5-car trains, however those platforms are needed for the stansted express service to london. The 5 (or 10) car aventras will have been in platform 1 or 3

Platform 2, which is the one available for XC, only fits 4 cars.

the GA Norwich service shares a platform with the 12-car stansted express service, and is therefore also limited to 4-cars.

There is no space for an XC service longer than 4 cars without either
- Extending platforms (possible, but challenging)
- Reducing the stansted express service to London (undesirable as it is very busy)

 

[Snow1964]

Platform 1 and 3 easily fit 5-car trains, however those platforms are needed for the stansted express service to london. The 5 (or 10) car aventras will have been in platform 1 or 3

Platform 2, which is the one available for XC, only fits 4 cars.

the GA Norwich service shares a platform with the 12-car stansted express service, and is therefore also limited to 4-cars.

There is no space for an XC service longer than 4 cars without either
- Extending platforms (possible, but challenging)
- Reducing the stansted express service to London (undesirable as it is very busy)

I remember reading very old article when Stansted station was being built that provision was made for expansion, extra space wasn't going to be built on, just kept as airport staff car parks that could be moved later. Also says provision made for second tunnel bore, or even direct spur from about halfway between Sawbridgeworth and Bishops Stortford if airport grew massively.

Not sure what has changed if now can't find space for extra platform

 

[Trainbike46]

I remember reading very old article when Stansted station was being built that provision was made for expansion, extra space wasn't going to be built on, just kept as airport staff car parks that could be moved later. Also says provision made for second tunnel bore, or even direct spur from about halfway between Sawbridgeworth and Bishops Stortford if airport grew massively.

Not sure what has changed if now can't find space for extra platform

My understanding is that extending platform 2 from the buffer stop isn't and was never possible as structurally important pylons are right at the end of it.

Extending in the other direction could be done, however, that would require a redesign of the crossovers and signalling, so possible but challenging

I believe there was originally the option to extend the line (and platforms) from platforms 1 & 3 further, however, that is now blocked by an airport hotel being built in the way (according to wikipedia)

As always, I'm sure a way could be found to add extra or longer platforms. However, the question is around how much it would cost. My point was that without significant works to the station, or reducing Stansted Express services to london, 5-car or longer XC services aren't possible most of the day

 

[class397tpe]

My understanding is that extending platform 2 from the buffer stop isn't and was never possible as structurally important pylons are right at the end of it.

Extending in the other direction could be done, however, that would require a redesign of the crossovers and signalling, so possible but challenging

I believe there was originally the option to extend the line (and platforms) from platforms 1 & 3 further, however, that is now blocked by an airport hotel being built in the way (according to wikipedia)

As always, I'm sure a way could be found to add extra or longer platforms. However, the question is around how much it would cost. My point was that without significant works to the station, or reducing Stansted Express services to london, 5-car or longer XC services aren't possible most of the day

Looks to me like you could get another 30ish metres for platform 2 pretty easily without fouling any junctions.
Or another 60 for platform 3. Would be relatively cheap simple extensions.

 

[Trainbike46]

Looks to me like you could get another 30ish metres for platform 2 pretty easily without fouling any junctions.
Or another 60 for platform 3. Would be relatively cheap simple extensions.

@Bald Rick, a highly knowledge user of this forum, has already explained why that won't work: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lengthening-birmingham-stansted-services.231106/#post-5643242

In any case, the proposal I was originally replying to assumed there would be no need for infrastructure works at Stansted, and that was clearly incorrect. I think settling for 4-car XC services all day would be a good start.

Back on topic, the real issue for XC capacity is on the IC part of it's network, which is losing capacity in the form of the HSTs without replacement, despite obvious replacements being available in the near future (ex-emr 222s, ex-avanti 221s, for example)

 

[option]

If XC were acting as a proper long distance operator operating comfortable services across the country, it wouldn't be calling at wayside halts with short platforms.

Have to question why XC is not serving bigger stations only


South of Birmingham, the wires continue to both Coventry and Bromsgrove.

You can also add Severn Tunnel Junction-Cardiff, the section through Bristol Parkway, Didcot-Reading West (first part of Basingstoke line), Ely-Stansted as AC electrified plus the third rail section Bournemouth-Basingstoke (and map also shows the part electrified Reading-Guildford route, although services not going there currently).

So around 60-65% of the routes XC use has electrification. Even if out by few percentage points (and I have estimated from a map), it is easily over 50% of the XC network

But XC can't use the wires to Bromsgrove, as its only the Cross City tracks that are wired up from Kings Norton to Longbridge, & there's no wires on the Camp Hill line, which XC also use.

 

[YorksLad12]

Having caught 1V50 this morning, I took to Twitter to check the future allocation. The XC account says that it will be a single, 5-car Voyager in the future - it was an HST set until last week. That's quite some drop in seating; some forum members claimed that all of the HST turns would be replaced by double sets, which isn't the case according to the XC Twitter person.

1S51 this evening was 2x 4-car Voyager, with First Class in the centre. I'm hoping they keep that arrangement, as it makes it easy to find First and puts the two unreserved carriages at the ends.

Just a pity that my usual service, 1V48, was only four this morning... as has become usual.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

I do enjoy the comments regarding operating Nottingham to Cardiff with 22x, what about the stop start patterns in the mornings and evenings? Severn Tunnel to Caldicot has got to have a heck of a strain on an intercity unit.

Also do the 22x units have the same door options as the 170s or would the shorter stations be removed from the stopping pattern? I believe they lock carriages out of use on the 170s when operating as 5 cars and it isn't SDO which would give more options?

 

[td97]

Can any XC insiders shed any light on this reply (with a rather optimistic outlook) from the Twitter customer services team?

Any replacement trains in the wings to cope with the lessened capacity

*looks to franchise end date*... *looks hopeful*. ^Peter

https://twitter.com/CrossCountryUK/status/1703874424410136909?t=XTtAxGLEYIUWf2BSSv42rw&s=19

 

[yorkie]

Having caught 1V50 this morning, I took to Twitter to check the future allocation. The XC account says that it will be a single, 5-car Voyager in the future - it was an HST set until last week.

Indeed this is my usual train for work meetings in the Midlands, and it can get really busy south of around Sheffield. In future I will be avoiding this train wherever possible.

The rolling stock strategy, combined with high fares, is designed to deter travel as much as possible, but the demand is still sufficient to cause overcrowding.

 

[AgeoftheTrain7]

Interesting stuff about XC in there with talk of 'refreshed' train fleets and direct services between Cardiff and Yorkshire et al.

 

[Snow1964]

Following appeared at end of new Avanti contract press release

Meanwhile, the department has also today awarded Cross Country a new National Rail Contract, with a core term of 4 years and a maximum possible term of 8 years.

The contract will also begin on 15 October and includes additions to help improve services, such as the replacement of the now-retired High Speed Trains with more modern equivalents, refurbishment of existing Cross Country train fleets, and the introduction of direct daily services between Cardiff and Yorkshire, the North East and Edinburgh from December 2024.

Avanti West Coast awarded long-term contract after significant improvements for passengers

New long-term rail contracts awarded to Avanti West Coast and Cross Country.

www.gov.uk

So looks like something is happening, but need the details, and presumably will need some trains for the new Cardiff-Yorkshire services

 

[JonathanH]

Interesting stuff about XC in there with talk of 'refreshed' train fleets and direct services between Cardiff and Yorkshire et al.

Yes, although it might be noted that HSTs have already been replaced with more modern equivalents.

Does 'the introduction of direct daily services between Cardiff and Yorkshire, the North East and Edinburgh from December 2024' suggest that there will be fewer such services from Plymouth and Reading? It is quite an odd snippet. Perhaps they were struggling to find any other timetable improvement. Time will tell.

 

[JonathanH]

So looks like something is happening, but need the details, and presumably will need some trains for the new Cardiff-Yorkshire services

New, or diverted? In the absence of any capacity improvements there are still only two paths on each of the four axes from Birmingham (and four between Birmingham and Derby). The press release certainly doesn't use the word seats or capacity, nor does it mention extra rolling stock, just additional services.

The fact that it is just a footnote to a press release about the West Coast operation is somewhat ominous but I guess we will see.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Following appeared at end of new Avanti contract press release

Avanti West Coast awarded long-term contract after significant improvements for passengers

New long-term rail contracts awarded to Avanti West Coast and Cross Country.

www.gov.uk

So looks like something is happening, but need the details, and presumably will need some trains for the new Cardiff-Yorkshire services

I suspect it is more likely to be one of the Bristol starters starting back - or even replacing a service to/from Plymouth.

 

[CptCharlee]

I really hope this doesn't mean Plymouth to Edinburgh is going 2 hourly, with the Cardiff to Edinburgh service. Unless they are extending some of the hourly Bristol to Manchester services to Plymouth on the second hour.

 

[stuu]

I really hope this doesn't mean Plymouth to Edinburgh is going 2 hourly, with the Cardiff to Edinburgh service. Unless they are extending some of the hourly Bristol to Manchester services to Plymouth on the second hour.

That would be the most likely, I can't see any possibility to remove service from the SW, they are rammed as it is

 

[sprinterguy]

I really hope this doesn't mean Plymouth to Edinburgh is going 2 hourly, with the Cardiff to Edinburgh service. Unless they are extending some of the hourly Bristol to Manchester services to Plymouth on the second hour.

The press release only mentions a "daily direct service": That could be as simple as starting one of the existing 1S35 06:35 or 1S37 07:35 Bristol Temple Meads - Edinburgh Waverley services from Cardiff. Similarly there are currently a couple of late evening terminators at Bristol Temple Meads from Edinburgh, 1V70 and 1V71, that could perform the same function in the opposite direction.

 

[hexagon789]

The press release only mentions a "daily direct service": That could be as simple as starting one of the existing 1S35 06:35 or 1S37 07:35 Bristol Temple Meads - Edinburgh Waverley services from Cardiff. Similarly there are currently a couple of late evening terminators at Bristol Temple Meads from Edinburgh, 1V70 and 1V71, that could perform the same function in the opposite direction.

It says services:

and the introduction of direct daily services between Cardiff and Yorkshire, the North East and Edinburgh from December 2024.

 

[sprinterguy]

It says services:

Not in the Arriva press release linked earlier in the thread:

Arriva Group awarded new national rail contract for CrossCountry

New contract starts from October 15 for a core term of four years. Timetable enhancements are expected and enhanced connectivity, including a new daily direct service between Cardiff and Edinburgh. The new contract will see CrossCountry undertake a full fleet refurbishment.

news.arriva.co.uk

Under the new contract, CrossCountry is also planning enhancements to its timetable, including a new daily direct service between Cardiff and Edinburgh

Though, as there seems to be a discrepancy between different releases, one service in each direction could still be considered plural.

 

[hexagon789]

Not in the Arriva press release linked earlier in the thread:

Though one service in each direction could still be considered plural.

I guess that's true - I think I just always hope for more. That's optimism for you.

I don't n't suppose we'll be seeing the return of the two-hourly Dundee-Cardiff then...?

 

[sprinterguy]

I guess that's true - I think I just always hope for more. That's optimism for you.

I don't n't suppose we'll be seeing the return of the two-hourly Dundee-Cardiff then...?

It's all speculation at the moment of course - I'd be happy to be pleasantly surprised.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

I don't n't suppose we'll be seeing the return of the two-hourly Dundee-Cardiff then...?

I also wonder what the future holds for the glasgow service

 

[ScotTrains]

I also wonder what the future holds for the glasgow service

They were always very popular. I wish they'd bring back the 2 hourly service.

 

[irish_rail]

All very lacking in ambition, what a shame but not a bit of a surprise. Cardiff to Edinburgh once a day?! Wow. Meanwhile 4 car units will continue to run over long distances, packed out. But its ok, as there will be passenger counting equipment installed to "improve the customer experience" . What an utter waste of time. And whilst they are refurbishing a set at a time, that will be another set out of service , adding to the overcrowding. XC really is becoming an operator to avoid.

 

[hexagon789]

It's all speculation at the moment of course - I'd be happy to be pleasantly surprised.

Same here.

I also wonder what the future holds for the glasgow service

Either the same as now, or possibly completely canned.